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Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,11:37) Paladin said: Quote Right, so Jesus is also a first-person-singular being. What's your point? Peter said the same thing, as also did Paul and James, and I imagine every human since Adam. They all said “I am” about SOMETHING. Don't be coy. Jesus clearly said that He pre-existed Abraham “Before Abraham was I AM.”
thinker
Paul said just as clearly, that Adam preceeded Christ. The task remains for us to resolve how the two are compatible, not how they contradict.WHAT PAUL SAID:
“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.”WHAT JESUS SAID:
“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” [John 8:58]ARE THEY COMPATIBLE? ABRAHAM SAW THROUGH A PREACHED GOSPEL; “And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”[Gal 3:8]
DAVID SAW THROUGH EYES OF PROPHECY: “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore BEING A PROPHET, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He SEEING this before spake of the RESURRECTION OF CHRIST, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” [Acts 2:29-31]
ABRAHAM REJOICED OVER PREACHED GOSPEL:
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” [John 8:56]COMPATIBLE, NOT CONTRADICTORY.
To say Jesus actually existed in reality make a contradiction out of Pauls' explanation and Luke's testimony in Acts.
Paladin………I totally agree with you on this brother. Jesus was foreordained but was brought into existence at His berth. AS Peter said. He was foreordained (BUT) was Manifested in our time. Foreordained does not equate to (a Preexistent begin). Jeremiah and Cyrus were both foreordained and yet did not exist till they were born as well as John the Baptist. IMO
pece and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Quote (Paladin @ July 26 2009,11:42) Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,11:37) Paladin said: Quote Right, so Jesus is also a first-person-singular being. What's your point? Peter said the same thing, as also did Paul and James, and I imagine every human since Adam. They all said “I am” about SOMETHING. Don't be coy. Jesus clearly said that He pre-existed Abraham “Before Abraham was I AM.”
thinker
Paul said just as clearly, that Adam preceeded Christ. The task remains for us to resolve how the two are compatible, not how they contradict.WHAT PAUL SAID:
“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.”WHAT JESUS SAID:
“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” [John 8:58]ARE THEY COMPATIBLE? ABRAHAM SAW THROUGH A PREACHED GOSPEL; “And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”[Gal 3:8]
DAVID SAW THROUGH EYES OF PROPHECY: “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore BEING A PROPHET, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He SEEING this before spake of the RESURRECTION OF CHRIST, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” [Acts 2:29-31]
ABRAHAM REJOICED OVER PREACHED GOSPEL:
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” [John 8:56]COMPATIBLE, NOT CONTRADICTORY.
To say Jesus actually existed in reality make a contradiction out of Pauls' explanation and Luke's testimony in Acts.
Paladin,
You left out verse 47. Paul said that the second man was “from heaven”Quote 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. Paul clearly said that the second man is NOT made from the earth but is “from heaven.” He is the second representative man. He is not second in real existence.
WHY DID YOU OMIT VERSE 47?
thinker
Thinker………..All thing on this earth are from Heaven. Not Just Jesus. That statement does not move Jesus away from Us and give him Preexistence status at all. Jesus told Pilot. WE are all foreknown by GOD and Predestined by HIM as Scripture says.” for whom he foreknew He also justified and them who HE justified He also sanctified to be conform unto the image of his son”. The second man is that man born from above by the spirit. And Just like Jesus our bodies will have to be changes as His was in order for us to attain to the full measure of Christ, for we shall see him Just as He is we will be exactly in his likeness, same type of body at the resurrection. IMO
peace and love………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ July 27 2009,07:12) Thinker………..All thing on this earth are from Heaven. Not Just Jesus. That statement does not move Jesus away from Us and give him Preexistence status at all. Jesus told Pilot. WE are all foreknown by GOD and Predestined by HIM as Scripture says.” for whom he foreknew He also justified and them who HE justified He also sanctified to be conform unto the image of his son”. The second man is that man born from above by the spirit. And Just like Jesus our bodies will have to be changes as His was in order for us to attain to the full measure of Christ, for we shall see him Just as He is we will be exactly in his likeness, same type of body at the resurrection. IMO peace and love………………..gene
Nonsense Gene! All things are NOT from heaven. You just helped Paladin lose the argument.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 27 2009,06:05) Quote (Paladin @ July 26 2009,11:42) Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,11:37) Paladin said: Quote Right, so Jesus is also a first-person-singular being. What's your point? Peter said the same thing, as also did Paul and James, and I imagine every human since Adam. They all said “I am” about SOMETHING. Don't be coy. Jesus clearly said that He pre-existed Abraham “Before Abraham was I AM.”
thinker
Paul said just as clearly, that Adam preceeded Christ. The task remains for us to resolve how the two are compatible, not how they contradict.WHAT PAUL SAID:
“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.”WHAT JESUS SAID:
“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” [John 8:58]ARE THEY COMPATIBLE? ABRAHAM SAW THROUGH A PREACHED GOSPEL; “And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”[Gal 3:8]
DAVID SAW THROUGH EYES OF PROPHECY: “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore BEING A PROPHET, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He SEEING this before spake of the RESURRECTION OF CHRIST, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” [Acts 2:29-31]
ABRAHAM REJOICED OVER PREACHED GOSPEL:
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” [John 8:56]COMPATIBLE, NOT CONTRADICTORY.
To say Jesus actually existed in reality make a contradiction out of Pauls' explanation and Luke's testimony in Acts.
Paladin,
You left out verse 47. Paul said that the second man was “from heaven”Quote 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. Paul clearly said that the second man is NOT made from the earth but is “from heaven.” He is the second representative man. He is not second in real existence.
WHY DID YOU OMIT VERSE 47?
thinker
Yah, well, I left out Gen 1:1 and Isaiah 66:13 too, because I don't need them for the theme of my post. I noticed YOU left out my entire thread on “fulfilling the logos of God.”Was that deliberate, or just fear?
(See, I know how to ask leading nonsense questions too)
Paladin said:
Quote Yah, well, I left out Gen 1:1 and Isaiah 66:13 too, because I don't need them for the theme of my post. I noticed YOU left out my entire thread on “fulfilling the logos of God.” Was that deliberate, or just fear?
(See, I know how to ask leading nonsense questions too)
Why would you cite Paul up to verse 46 and then stop there? Verse 47 speaks to the issue of Christ's supposed origin.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 27 2009,10:42) Paladin said: Quote Yah, well, I left out Gen 1:1 and Isaiah 66:13 too, because I don't need them for the theme of my post. I noticed YOU left out my entire thread on “fulfilling the logos of God.” Was that deliberate, or just fear?
(See, I know how to ask leading nonsense questions too)
Why would you cite Paul up to verse 46 and then stop there? Verse 47 speaks to the issue of Christ's supposed origin.
thinker
45so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam [is] for a life-giving spirit,46but that which is spiritual [is] not first, but that which [was] natural, afterwards that which [is] spiritual.
47The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven;
48as [is] the earthy, such [are] also the earthy; and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] also the heavenly;
49and, according as we did bear the image of the earthy, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly
This is once again allegory. If we bear the image of the heavenly do you think that means we are not made from the earth?
bodhitharta said:
Quote his is once again allegory. If we bear the image of the heavenly do you think that means we are not made from the earth? We will one day put on a heavenly body which will not be from the earth (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). When we finally bear Christ's image we will not be from the earth. Jesus said that we will be as the angels in heaven. The angels are not from the earth.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 27 2009,19:33) bodhitharta said: Quote his is once again allegory. If we bear the image of the heavenly do you think that means we are not made from the earth? We will one day put on a heavenly body which will not be from the earth (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). When we finally bear Christ's image we will not be from the earth. Jesus said that we will be as the angels in heaven. The angels are not from the earth.
thinker
But won't you always have been from earth?Quote (thethinker @ July 27 2009,10:42) Paladin said: Quote Yah, well, I left out Gen 1:1 and Isaiah 66:13 too, because I don't need them for the theme of my post. I noticed YOU left out my entire thread on “fulfilling the logos of God.” Was that deliberate, or just fear?
(See, I know how to ask leading nonsense questions too)
Why would you cite Paul up to verse 46 and then stop there? Verse 47 speaks to the issue of Christ's supposed origin.
thinker
Because I have already answered it too many times to count. And been ignored.When Jesus said “I am from above,” or, “I am come down out of heaven,” he was not speaking of his origin, but the authority behind it.
All men come from Eden, but Jesus did not come from the same process as all men, what Jesus is came from heaven.
“The baptism of John, whence cometh it?” It was always about authority, not origin.
“BY WHAT AUTHORITY” – IT WAS ALWAYS ABOUT
“AUTHORITY.” “And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John, whence was it?”The question sounds like one of source, but it is not. It is a question of authority – “FROM HEAVEN, or OF MEN?”
“And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. 27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you BY WHAT AUTHORITY I DO THESE THINGS.”[Mat 21:23-27][Mark 11:27-33][Luke 20:1-8]
Even Paul understood the significance of the question.
John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?TRINITY ARGUMENT: Since Jesus said that he was going to return back up to where he was before, he must have been in heaven, and therefore, must have been God.
REBUTTAL: Jesus did not say he was going “back” to anything, or anywhere. Paul tells us that before he ascended, he descended, not to Earth from Heaven, but from earth to the lower parts of Earth, or the grave. His reference is to his death, burial, visit to the “spirits in prison,” and finally his resurrection. His ascention into Heaven came later. Jesus himself told the Jews that they would see this “sign of Jonas,” which took place at his resurrection.
John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
NOTE: This cannot refer to some pre-existant state, because his designation of “Son of Man” only applies to his being a man. Therefore, what, about his being a man, was changed, then changed back? Or, to put it another way, what descended, and was raised back to its previous state?
Eph 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended FIRST into the lower parts of the earth?
A SIGN TO THE NINEVITES:…A SIGN TO THIS GENERATION:
Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. 30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.Mat 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting, desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather today: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
THE CHANGE THAT WAS CHANGED BACK; THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION:
Mark 9:10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.1 Cor 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once;… 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yetascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Hi all
Quote (Paladin @ July 28 2009,15:18) When Jesus said “I am from above,” or, “I am come down out of heaven,” he was not speaking of his origin, but the authority behind it. All men come from Eden, but Jesus did not come from the same process as all men, what Jesus is came from heaven.
“The baptism of John, whence cometh it?” It was always about authority, not origin.
This is a good example of what I was saying Here!Opologetics at its best or worst, however you want to look at it.
Why didn't Jesus just say so? Why didn't he explain to us that he was only speaking of his authority and that he really did not actually come down from heaven. Surely John the writer could have narrated that to us after all he was an eye witness and the writer here.
So words mean nothing anymore, right?
Just explain away the simple meaning of Jesus words.
Contextually, Jesus makes it very clear in John chapter 6 that he came down from heaven for he even states in the same context that he seen the Father.
BTW PD, the word for “Ascend up” in John 6:62 is in the active voice and present tense so he could not have meant later when he was resurrected!
WJ
Paladin said:
Quote When Jesus said “I am from above,” or, “I am come down out of heaven,” he was not speaking of his origin, but the authority behind it.
Nonsense! Jesus said:Quote What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
Paladin's version:“What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend to the authority He had before.”
Hey! On second thought Paladin's version might work after all. If Jesus ascends to the authority He had before then the question arises, “before when?” Any answer would suggest He was pre-existent. So Jesus had authority BEFORE. Paladin has boxed himself in.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,07:33)
(WJ)Quote (Paladin @ July 28 2009,15:18) When Jesus said “I am from above,” or, “I am come down out of heaven,” he was not speaking of his origin, but the authority behind it. All men come from Eden, but Jesus did not come from the same process as all men, what Jesus is came from heaven.
“The baptism of John, whence cometh it?” It was always about authority, not origin.
(WJ) Why didn't Jesus just say so? Why didn't he explain to us that he was only speaking of his authority and that he really did not actually come down from heaven.
(P) He did. You weren't listening. When the Jews refused to declare themselves on the source of John's baptismal authority, he said “Neither do I tell you by what authority I do my work.”
(WJ) Surely John the writer could have narrated that to us after all he was an eye witness and the writer here. So words mean nothing anymore, right? Just explain away the simple meaning of Jesus words.[/quote]
(P) That's what I've been trying to tell you but you won't see it. You don't even consider Paul's words as inspired by the same Holy Spirit as inspired John.
Paul said “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.” [Eph 4:8-10]
You speak of what words John could have used to make it clearer, try Paul's words.
“When he ascended on high” could have been “When he returned to heaven,” But Paul didn't say that and neither did John.
“Now that he ascended what is it but that he also descended
first into the lower parts of the earth?” Surely to make it clearer Paul should have said “Now that he ascended, what is it but that he first descended TO THE EARTH, but Paul didn't say THAT either, nor did John. No, by inspiration Paul tells us
that Jesus “first descended to the lower parts of the earth.”
This CLEARLY is a reference to when he visited the spirits in prison, of which Peter tells us – “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” [64-65 a.d.]John did not have to tell of it because by the time John wrote, [96 a.d.] Peter had already referenced it. AND so had Paul. So why should John have to retell it just to make Peter and Pauls words “more clear” to YOU?
Oh, I forgot, you require John's explanations first because it is the fourth book of the new testament. Silly me.
(WJ)
Quote Contextually, Jesus makes it very clear in John chapter 6 that he came down from heaven for he even states in the same context that he seen the Father. John 1:18 No man hath seen [ewraken (oraw) = indicative perfect active 3rd person singular] God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
In John 6:46 Jesus again uses “ewraken” an indicative verb, perfect active. He applies it to both himself and other men, claiming the one, denying the other.
John himself says 1 John 4:12 No man hath seen [tetheatai (theaomai) indicative perfect middle or passive deponent 3rd person s] God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.” But John is using a different word here than in John 6:46.
Actually men have seen God, when God brought them to himself, and allowed it to happen. The New testament authors are all talking about men who break into heaven to gaze on God from their own ability. Ain't gonna happen!
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw [eidon = (oraw) indicative aorist active 3rd person plural] the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
(WJ)
Quote BTW PD, the word for “Ascend up” in John 6:62 is in the active voice and present tense so he could not have meant later when he was resurrected! The next to last verse of Revelation says “Come Lord Jesus” is also in the active form but hasn't happened yet. What's your point? John wrote of the one in 69 a.d., and the other in 96 a.d.d, using active voice both times. You really need to do just a tad more study on the use of the active voice Greek words.
Paladin said:
Quote John 1:18 No man hath seen [ewraken (oraw) = indicative perfect active 3rd person singular] God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. To All,
First, John clearly says that Jesus is the exception.Quote “No man has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
Paladin conveniently omits that the Son is in the bosom of the Father. Therefore, the Son is the exception.Second, John meant that no man has comprehended God with the understanding. This is the way inwhich no man has “seen” God. This is substantiated by the fact that John said that the Son has “explained” him. The word “explained” is the Greek “exegesis.”
John was NOT saying that no man had seen God with His eyes. Jacob had seen God with his eyes,
Quote Genesis 32:30: So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel:[a] “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” Footnotes:
[a] Genesis 32:30 Literally Face of GodJacob had seen the face of God with his own eyes. It's back to the drawing board for Dr. Paladin.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2009,06:56) Hi TT ,
So Jesus being in the bosom of the Father shows there are two not one.
Exactly!thinker
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