The divider of Christians

Blocked

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 27 2012,18:44)

“Does it make sense to me for Jesus to pray to himself?” Once again where did I say or indicate that, please go back and read what I wrote and you'll see I said nothing of the sorts.

If Jesus is a “manifestation of God”, then it means Jesus is “GOD HIMSELF, manifested for us to see”, right? Manifest means: readily perceived by the eye or the understanding; evident; obvious; apparent;. If you say Jesus was “God manifested”, it is the same as saying Jesus was “God, readily perceived by the eye or the understanding”. In other words, you are claiming that Jesus was God Himself – in a form we could see.

And if that is the case, you are also saying that any time Jesus prayed to God in the NT, it was God praying to God.

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 27 2012,18:44)

1) Jesus was not God Almighty during His time on earth.

Okay. In your understanding, when WAS Jesus “God Almighty”?

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 27 2012,18:44)

2) It says God appointed Him over the works of God's hands, if it was God's hands and scripture tells us that Jesus was the one who did it, what does that tell you?

What scripture tells us “Jesus was the one who did it”?

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 27 2012,18:44)

One last point, is God a name or title?

A title.

September 28, 2012 at 10:59 pm#314168

Blocked

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2012,22:33)

But the wise of the world do not like childlike faith and childlike and simple interpretations. No they have to make everything complicated so that they feel that they are the only ones who understand and then you have to go to them for knowledge.

Wonderfully put, t8.

September 28, 2012 at 11:14 pm#314169

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 28 2012,15:29)

A literal begotten Son of God would be the very God of very God………

Cain was the very adam of very adam, too. But he wasn't the very Adam of very Adam, was he?

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 28 2012,15:29)

Like begets like in reference to literal begettals of sons or daughters
Like doesn't beget unlike in reference to literal begettals of sons or daughters

God the Father literally begat only one Son.

If like begets like, then it should be clear to us that Jesus is LIKE his Father and God. And scripture does support the claim that the Son of God is LIKE the God who brought him forth into existence.

September 28, 2012 at 11:19 pm#314170

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 28 2012,15:41)

…… I don't believe He emptied Himself of His divinity…………

So do you believe that Jesus remained “God Almighty” during his time on earth?

(I also understand that Jesus started to “remember” his pre-human existence little by little. I believe that when God's Spirit settled on him at his baptism, he regained this memory in full. I have no proof of this – it is just how I personally understand it.)

September 29, 2012 at 12:17 am#314178

seekingtruth

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2012,06:56)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 27 2012,18:44)

“Does it make sense to me for Jesus to pray to himself?” Once again where did I say or indicate that, please go back and read what I wrote and you'll see I said nothing of the sorts.

And if that is the case, you are also saying that any time Jesus prayed to God in the NT, it was God praying to God.

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 27 2012,18:44)

1) Jesus was not God Almighty during His time on earth.

Okay. In your understanding, when WAS Jesus “God Almighty”?

Posted a couple of posts earlier: “The pre-incarnate Christ was an extension of the Father interacting with man. Until at the appropriate time when this physical extension was emptied and used to impregnate Mary. From that point on He was totally human,”

Quote

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 27 2012,18:44)

2) It says God appointed Him over the works of God's hands, if it was God's hands and scripture tells us that Jesus was the one who did it, what does that tell you?

What scripture tells us “Jesus was the one who did it”?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Ephesians 3:9 and to cause all to see what [is] the fellowship of the secret that hath been hid from the ages in God, who the all things did create by Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Quote

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 27 2012,18:44)

One last point, is God a name or title?

A title.

On that we agree

September 29, 2012 at 2:12 am#314181

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 29 2012,18:17)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2012,06:56)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 27 2012,18:44)

“Does it make sense to me for Jesus to pray to himself?” Once again where did I say or indicate that, please go back and read what I wrote and you'll see I said nothing of the sorts.

And if that is the case, you are also saying that any time Jesus prayed to God in the NT, it was God praying to God.

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 27 2012,18:44)

1) Jesus was not God Almighty during His time on earth.

Okay. In your understanding, when WAS Jesus “God Almighty”?

Quote

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 27 2012,18:44)

2) It says God appointed Him over the works of God's hands, if it was God's hands and scripture tells us that Jesus was the one who did it, what does that tell you?

What scripture tells us “Jesus was the one who did it”?

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Ephesians 3:9 and to cause all to see what [is] the fellowship of the secret that hath been hid from the ages in God, who the all things did create by Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Quote

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 27 2012,18:44)

One last point, is God a name or title?

A title.

On that we agree

Quote

The pre-incarnate Christ was an extension of the Father interacting with man

would this be like “” the vice president is an extention of the president “””

or ” my son is an extention of me his father ''

September 29, 2012 at 10:08 am#314203

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2012,11:29)

A literal begotten Son of God would be the very God of very God/the very God begotten of very God…like begets like…the only begotten God. 'Like begets like' is so easy to understand, children have no problem with this, why do some adults on here have problems with this.

Do you understand the difference between identity and nature?

You can be adam, but you can't be Adam.
You can be a devil, but you cannot be the Devil.
Jesus existed in the FORM of God, but that doesn't make him God.
We can partake of divine nature, but we cannot be the Divine.
We can have the spirit of God, but we are not the Spirit.

You see LU, there is a difference between identity and nature, and those that do not know the difference propose all kinds of theories like the Trinity or Binity to try to make sense of it all.

Unfortunately for them, they are wrong because these theories are from the mind of man. Even the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of man.

So going back to your begat statement. Adam begat Cain. SO Cain is adam/man, but he is no Adam.

Your dual YHWH theory treads this into the mud. It suggests that God and Jesus are YHWH. By that reason, you might as well say that Adam and Eve are Adam, when they are actually adam.

It may seem like a subtle difference but the outcome is huge. YOu get that wrong and you are way off the track and all devils can be the Devil and all theos can be God, and all adams are now Adam.

Wrong wrong wrong. Simple as that.

September 29, 2012 at 3:25 pm#314210

AndrewAD

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2012,08:41)

Quote (AndrewAD @ Sep. 27 2012,21:55)

Lightenup,Sep. wrote:

Andrew,
Do you realize that the Son who was God in the beginning with God, emptied Himself and was made lower than the angels and thus would certainly need to be given power and direction from His Father since He emptied Himself? The Son did not come here in His inauguration without emptying Himself first.
God bless!
Hi Kathi and God bless you too!
Are you saying God emptied himself of his divinity which makes him God,in order to assume flesh and then forgot he used to be God? So to make the statements he made,and temptations he faced as a man true.
According to the Nicene creed he's God of God and according to trinity dogma-Chalcedonian creed,he's 100% man and 100% God at the same time,aka the hypostatic union.
Do you believe Jesus the human and Jesus the God,or God the Son are the same person?

Hi AndrewAD,
We aren't told what He emptied Himself of but I don't believe He emptied Himself of His divinity. I have thought that He emptied Himself of the privilege of receiving the glory that comes with His divinity and He may have emptied Himself of His memory of His divinity but got His memory back little by little. I don't know though, that is just what I think is possible. His Father held His memories for a time, maybe. Amnesia is an example of this. Imagine a royal prince being in a different country, getting into some accident resulting in amnesia…this wouldn't make him no longer a royal prince in his own country, but it would hide his memory of being a royal prince in his own country. If he, then, got his memory back little by little, he would eventually remember who he was.

Do you understand this? I hope that I said it clearly.

Many blessings, Andrew!

Hi Kathi,
Do you realize a God with divine amnesia is a faulty god? Can a God be omniscient and not know everything at the same time?
Can a man with amnesia or mental illness be a perfect man?yet Jesus had to be a perfect man to be the lamb of God and sacrifice for our sins.A child born with a birth defect is defected and a god born with a defect is not God unless the body of Jesus made in Mary's womb is just a costume for an act.
Isn't this what the trinity doctrine is really all about though they try to claim it isn't? We have three equal gods who are exactly the same and they are acting out the parts of father,son and spirit.Everything is true in the script but outside the script it's not that way,thus true and false at the same time.These Gods are unknowable and mysterious.
A Hollywood actor is a millionaire yet in a script he's a pauper begging on the street.We love this character he plays and we can identify with him but in reality he's lives in a Beverly Hills mansion and is untouchable by us common folk.
And these Actor gods have played many other roles and starred in many other shows since the dawn of time.

September 29, 2012 at 4:57 pm#314211

seekingtruth

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2012,07:19)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 28 2012,15:41)

…… I don't believe He emptied Himself of His divinity…………

So do you believe that Jesus remained “God Almighty” during his time on earth?

I agree Mike except I believe we're told it happened at this point:

John 16:25 I have told you these things in parables (veiled language, allegories, dark sayings); the hour is now coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures of speech, but I shall tell you about the Father in plain words and openly (without reserve).
26 At that time you will ask (pray) in My Name; and I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf [for it will be unnecessary].
27 For the Father Himself [tenderly] loves you because you have loved Me and have believed that I came out from the Father.
28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and going to the Father.
29 His disciples said, Ah, now You are speaking plainly to us and not in parables (veiled language and figures of speech)!
30 Now we know that You are acquainted with everything and have no need to be asked questions. Because of this we believe that you [really] came from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do you now believe? [Do you believe it at last?]

September 29, 2012 at 11:09 pm#314226

Participant

Quote (AndrewAD @ Sep. 29 2012,10:25)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2012,08:41)

Quote (AndrewAD @ Sep. 27 2012,21:55)

Lightenup,Sep. wrote:

Do you understand this? I hope that I said it clearly.

Many blessings, Andrew!

Andrew,
He chose to limit Himself, that is not a defect but an act of heroism.

September 29, 2012 at 11:32 pm#314227

Participant

t8,

Quote

Do you understand the difference between identity and nature?

Yes, for example…Barabbas was not really a literal 'son of God' but nevertheless, he was given the name 'Barabbas' which means 'son of God'. He is a 'son of God' by merely being given a particular name. On the other hand, Jesus IS the literal 'son of God' because of nature.

Quote

So going back to your begat statement. Adam begat Cain. SO Cain is adam/man, but he is no Adam.

Your example is faulty, t8. If Adam named his son Adam instead of Cain, your example falls flat. Such is the reasoning of men, though. They are equally men, are they not, or is Cain less than man, hmmm? The word “God” as in 'very God begat/of very God', refers to a kind of being with xyz attributes…eternal power, eternal existence, eternal wisdom, lacking nothing good, for example. Both the Father and Son have xyz attributes because they are in each other eternally and never independent of each other.

September 29, 2012 at 11:40 pm#314228

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 28 2012,17:48)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2012,05:45)

Hi William,
Just to be clear, you said:

Quote

I believe the Father is best understood as being like our soul, embodying self, exerting His will over His corporeal extension (the future begotten Son).

The creed says that He was 'begotten BEFORE the ages.'

You said that you agree with the creed but what you said in the part I quoted seems like you don't believe the Son was begotten BEFORE the ages.

As to begotten before the ages, I believe that there have been multiple ages since creation

Ecclesiastes 1:10 Is there anything of which one might say, “See this, it is new”? Already it has existed for ages Which were before us.

Thanks William,
I thought you only disagreed with the 'catholic church' part, I guess I misunderstood.

If He wasn't begotten as a 'Son' before the ages-i.e. before creation, how could He make the world through the Son?

Heb 1: 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

and

Heb 1:10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

September 29, 2012 at 11:48 pm#314231

Blocked

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 28 2012,18:17)

Forgive me, Wm, but it seems to me like you're saying Jesus (the extension) was the father of Jesus (the human). Surely you don't mean that Jesus is his own father? At any rate, I can't get on board with any doctrine that calls for something that once was God Almighty becoming something that isn't God Almighty anymore.

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 28 2012,18:17)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

What scripture tells us “Jesus was the one who did it”?

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Ephesians 3:9 and to cause all to see what [is] the fellowship of the secret that hath been hid from the ages in God, who the all things did create by Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

All these scriptures teach that GOD created THROUGH His Son Jesus Christ.

He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing was created is another. – Tertullian

September 29, 2012 at 11:50 pm#314232

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 28 2012,18:19)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 28 2012,15:41)

…… I don't believe He emptied Himself of His divinity…………

So do you believe that Jesus remained “God Almighty” during his time on earth?

Mike,

Quote

So do you believe that Jesus remained “God Almighty” during his time on earth?

God Almighty-the Son, did not lose the power or wisdom that He had before the incarnation. He limited His use of it, it seems to me, and completely relied of the power and wisdom of the Father in order to become as limited as man is.

So, to answer directly, yes, He remained God Almighty-the Son because He is the one who chose to limit Himself and lay His life down.

September 30, 2012 at 12:02 am#314233

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 30 2012,17:50)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 28 2012,18:19)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 28 2012,15:41)

…… I don't believe He emptied Himself of His divinity…………

So do you believe that Jesus remained “God Almighty” during his time on earth?

Mike,

Quote

So do you believe that Jesus remained “God Almighty” during his time on earth?

So, to answer directly, yes, He remained God Almighty-the Son because He is the one who chose to limit Himself and lay His life down.

Quote

God Almighty-the Son, did not lose the power or wisdom

why then it is said that the miracle were done for him by the father

and conditional powers are not full powers is it

wisdom is knowledge and true understanding of it ,so were were is that leave your statement

September 30, 2012 at 12:04 am#314234

Participant

Quote

He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing was created is another. – Tertullian

and Pierre

September 30, 2012 at 12:06 am#314235

Participant

Pierre,
He could not empty Himself if He did not have the power to do so. You are confused with someone who is limited by someone else.

For the answer to this:

Quote

why then it is said that the miracle were done for him by the father

Read my post again.

September 30, 2012 at 1:14 am#314238

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 30 2012,18:06)

Pierre,
He could not empty Himself if He did not have the power to do so. You are confused with someone who is limited by someone else.

For the answer to this:

Quote

why then it is said that the miracle were done for him by the father

Read my post again.

wen did Christ the son empty himself before he came down or after???

it seems you do not understand what you are saying ;

if before then he had no more power to do anything ,but trusted the father ,

and we know he did not had powers of his own untill his resurrection ,so all things were done for him.

September 30, 2012 at 3:58 am#314256