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Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,15:24) Yes and my son and I are equivalent in our nature, so subordination does equate to ontological disparity. We've been here before I think.
I don't know that the bible discusses “ontological disparity.” Why not focus on what it does discuss?Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 10 2012,15:35) An eternal Father would presume the eternal existence of a Son or there would be no eternal 'Father.' It is typical for a Son to exist within His parent before being begotten/brought forth.
Why would it presume that? Why would there be no eternal father without that presupposition?Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 10 2012,05:55) Jesus' God was not His creator, so Jesus' God is not your God because your God was Jesus' creator. He can't be both The creator of Jesus and not the creator of Jesus before the ages, Mike.
Kathi,Is there only one God who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them? YES or NO?
If “YES”, then it doesn't matter what any of us BELIEVE about that God, the fact will remain that we ALL have one God.
You can't say I have a different God than you because I believe Jesus was created and you don't. We still have the same God who created us, no matter what we personally believe about Him.
When Jesus said that our God was also his God, he didn't speak about being created or not being created, did he?
The bottom line is that we agree that the God Jesus was talking about in John 20:17 is the Father. And whether or not the Father created Jesus as the first of His works like the scriptures say, He is STILL the our one God, right?
So Jesus' God is the Father, and my God is the Father. I and Jesus have the same God, Kathi – just like Jesus taught.
You point blank told us all that YOU have the same God as Jesus has…………. but you “also have the Son” along with that God. So YOU have admitted that you've added a member to your God. I haven't done that, for there is no scriptural reason for me to do so.
Now, if you'd like to discuss those “creation of Jesus” scriptures again, I'm game. But whether or not Jesus was created by his God, the fact remains that we ALL have the same God as Jesus has. And that one God is the Father.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 10 2012,05:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2012,23:45) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2012,22:35) An eternal Father would presume the eternal existence of a Son or there would be no eternal 'Father.'
What was that scripture again that speaks of the “eternal Father”?
They are both the 'First and the Last.' There is no other possibility than both being eternal, thus there is an eternal Father and an eternal Son.
There are many “firsts” and “lasts” in scripture, just like there are many “in the beginnings”.There is no scripture that speaks of Jesus being from eternity. And there is no scripture that calls God “the eternal Father”.
Kathi, you should already know that your doctrine of a God of gods and Lord of lords eternal unity Godhead doesn't work, because t8 and I have pointed out that the Father MADE Jesus Lord. That in itself tells you that he couldn't have already been Lord from eternity.
Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,10:56) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,15:24) Yes and my son and I are equivalent in our nature, so subordination does equate to ontological disparity. We've been here before I think.
I don't know that the bible discusses “ontological disparity.” Why not focus on what it does discuss?
Paul is a trip. He is trying desperately to confuse the issue with “nature”, and “subordination”, and “ontological desparity”, and “platforms”, and “tenets”.But the actual point is so simple that a first grader can grasp it: The God of Jesus is the God of us. If Jesus' God is the Father, then our God is the Father.
Pretty simple, really. And no $5.00 words are needed to understand this simplicity.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,15:42) 1. Does it seem logical to you that the MOST HIGH God would have a God of his own? YES or NO?
Yes – given that He put on humanity (Phil 2:7-8). It would be requirement of the Law He was born under (Galatians 4:4-5) in order for Him to complete the redemptive mission He came for.Quote 2. If Jesus DOES have a God of his own, does it seem logical to you that Jesus could be the MOST HIGH God? YES or NO?
Yes – for scripture nowhere states He forfeited His diety.Quote 3. If God is ONE entity, does it seem logical to you that a PART of that one entity would worship a DIFFERENT part of the same entity as his God? YES or NO?
Yes – refer to answer given to Q1.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 11 2012,06:09) Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,10:56) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,15:24) Yes and my son and I are equivalent in our nature, so subordination does equate to ontological disparity. We've been here before I think.
I don't know that the bible discusses “ontological disparity.” Why not focus on what it does discuss?
Paul is a trip. He is trying desperately to confuse the issue with “nature”, and “subordination”, and “ontological desparity”, and “platforms”, and “tenets”.But the actual point is so simple that a first grader can grasp it: The God of Jesus is the God of us. If Jesus' God is the Father, then our God is the Father.
Pretty simple, really. And no $5.00 words are needed to understand this simplicity.
No confusion on my part. With regard to the unoriginal “Jesus has a God” argument you're pushing – the burden of proof is firmly on the shoulders of the Arian to substantiate the unstated premise that Yeshua is/was a lesser in His being than the Father and that this links in with the aforementioned statement before the discussion can advance in a productive way. This is step 1.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,13:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,15:42) 1. Does it seem logical to you that the MOST HIGH God would have a God of his own? YES or NO?
Yes – given that He put on humanity (Phil 2:7-8). It would be requirement of the Law He was born under (Galatians 4:4-5) in order for Him to complete the redemptive mission He came for.Quote 2. If Jesus DOES have a God of his own, does it seem logical to you that Jesus could be the MOST HIGH God? YES or NO?
Yes – for scripture nowhere states He forfeited His diety.Quote 3. If God is ONE entity, does it seem logical to you that a PART of that one entity would worship a DIFFERENT part of the same entity as his God? YES or NO?
Yes – refer to answer given to Q1.
Well, I don't really know what to tell you, Paul. None of those things make a lick of sense to me. Of course I've been dealing with you and Keith and Jack and Kathi for a long time on HN, so I'm quite used to people claiming that the nonsensical makes perfect sense – in order to promote their scripturally flawed, man-made doctrines. So why should today be any different?
1. So when Jesus “put on humanity”, was he STILL 100% God Almighty – like you Trinitarians teach? If so, then is your point really a point at all?
2. No one is saying he did forfeit his deity, are they? But there is a difference between being a deity, and being the MOST HIGH Deity.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,13:22) No confusion on my part. With regard to the unoriginal “Jesus has a God” argument you're pushing – the burden of proof is firmly on the shoulders of the Arian to substantiate the unstated premise that Yeshua is/was a lesser in His being than the Father and that this links in with the aforementioned statement before the discussion can advance in a productive way. This is step 1.
First of all, “Jesus has a God” is NOT the argument I've made. “Jesus' God is the EXACT SAME GOD as your and my God” is the argument I've successfully made using scripture.Secondly, consider “step 1” a done deal, for the very fact that someone HAS a God infers that they are lesser than their God. This is just common sense, Paul.
Isaiah 44
16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire;
over it he prepares his meal,
he roasts his meat and eats his fill.
He also warms himself and says,
“Ah! I am warm; I see the fire.”
17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol;
he bows down to it and worships.
He prays to it and says,
“Save me; you are my god.”See? This is true even in the case of man-made idols. NO ONE takes for themselves a God who is equal to or lesser than they are. A person's God is someone who (they believe) can help them and save them because their God is ALWAYS greater than them.
So the very fact that Jesus HAS a God at all means that Jesus is LESSER THAN his God.
Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,11:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 10 2012,15:35) An eternal Father would presume the eternal existence of a Son or there would be no eternal 'Father.' It is typical for a Son to exist within His parent before being begotten/brought forth.
Why would it presume that? Why would there be no eternal father without that presupposition?
David,
Being called a father means there exists a son or daughter.Were you a father before your offspring was conceived? If not, then you weren't always a father. However, if the Father of Jesus was always a father, then He had to always have a son for that to be true.
Mike,
Quote Is there only one God who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them? YES or NO? Yes, if you are referring to our God who is the YHWH Echad, the eternal unity.
Quote You can't say I have a different God than you because I believe Jesus was created and you don't. We still have the same God who created us, no matter what we personally believe about Him. You tell me often that I do not have the same God as you and t8 because my God is the unity of the Father and the Son together with their Spirit. Your God is just the Father and not the Son, even though you admit that you need two 'the theos' for those six things that I questioned you about.
The YHWH Echad, the eternal unity, was, is and is to come the God of all the universe whether you know Him or are known by Him. But that doesn't mean He is your Savior. For Him, the eternal unity, to be your Savior, you have to know Him and be known by Him. Hence, He is everybody's God but not everybody's Savior because not everybody knows Him, believes in Him, and serves Him with a devoted life.Quote When Jesus said that our God was also his God, he didn't speak about being created or not being created, did he? John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.If Jesus and you and I had the same God and Father, we would agree that Jesus' God was His Father and not His creator. We do not have the same God-you and I.
You have said that you believe Jesus was made Lord before the ages, right? Then was He one with the Father before the ages too, according to you?
We are told that He and the Father are one in the NT by Jesus Himself and that the Father loved Him before the foundation of the world. Was the Son in the Father and the Father in Him before the ages?Mike,
Quote You point blank told us all that YOU have the same God as Jesus has…………. but you “also have the Son” along with that God. So YOU have admitted that you've added a member to your God. I haven't done that, for there is no scriptural reason for me to do so. Yes, I have the same God AND Father as Jesus BECAUSE I have Jesus. Apart from having the Son, you cannot have the Father. Also, the Lord of lords was always a part of the YHWH Echad, the eternal unity…I did not add anything.
1 John 2:20
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.d 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.Kathi,
I read your last two posts, but there is nothing in them worth responding to. You are just rehashing your same old stories – despite the fact they don't address this current point that kills your doctrine completely.
For example, you say God is the Father of Jesus, therefore it proves Jesus isn't created. What? He is my Father too, right? Does that mean I'M not created?
Then you post a scripture where Jesus says “GOD SENT ME”. Who is that God who sent Jesus? I assume it was the God OF Jesus who SENT him, don't you?
I don't know how this kind of discussion is proving anything for you.
Kathi, do you think the God of Jesus is a unity of Father and Son?
If not, then neither is our God, for we and Jesus have the same God.
Mike,
The God of Jesus can only be our saving God while being understood as being one with Jesus. He is not our saving God apart from Jesus.
If God the Father is not one with Jesus, He is not our saving God but is our God who does not save us. Jesus' God is one with Him.
Mike,
you said:Quote For example, you say God is the Father of Jesus, therefore it proves Jesus isn't created. What? He is my Father too, right? Does that mean I'M not created? That is right, if God is the Father of Jesus and He is not adopted as a son but is the only begotten Son in the beginning, that means He is not created. He is not your Father if you don't believe in the only begotten Son. You believe him to be a first and only directly created son, not the only begotten Son.
It is rather funny that you believe the Son to be the first and only thing that the Father directly created and all other things were created directly by the Son and indirectly by the Father, yet you don't see the Son as the Creator.
The only scripture that possibly speaks of Jesus “creating” anything at all is John 2:15, where Jesus is said to have “made” a whip out of cords.
Other than that, no scripture speaks of Jesus “creating” anything at all. What the scriptures DO teach is that God, alone and by Himself, created all things THROUGH His holy servant Jesus the Christ of God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2012,20:02) The God of Jesus can only be our saving God while being understood as being one with Jesus.
Kathi,It is evident that you are stumped on this one.
If Jesus meant “the Father” by the words “my God” in John 20:17, then “the Father” is also our God – plain and simple.
If Jesus meant “the unity of Father and Son” by the words in 20:17, then “the unity of Father and Son” is also our God.
I guess it boils down to WHO you think Jesus meant by the words “my God” in 20:17.
I think it's a no-brainer. You, on the other hand, are apt to twist and turn until the cows come home, trying desperately to make it mean something else.
Your problem is that I've already got your answer to my question – and it turns out that you and I both think Jesus meant “the Father” by the words “my God”.
So now it's just a matter of you BELIEVING the words of the one you call your Lord God.
Well Kathi? Do you believe the words of Jesus that his God (the Father) is also our God?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2012,20:09) Mike,
you said:Quote For example, you say God is the Father of Jesus, therefore it proves Jesus isn't created. What? He is my Father too, right? Does that mean I'M not created? That is right, if God is the Father of Jesus and He is not adopted as a son but is the only begotten Son in the beginning, that means He is not created.
That's odd, because I don't see the words “my Father and your ADOPTIVE Father” in John 20:17.I only see that the Father of Jesus is also the Father of us. And since he is our Father as well as Jesus' Father, it must mean that we were not created, right?
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