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1 Corinthians 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, THEN SHALL THE SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT UNTO HIM that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Kathi – I'm impressed with you steadfast perseverence and accurate handling of scripture in the face some quite spiteful opposition from the henotheists and their variants.
Nice one.
Can you tell us what's so “nice” about Kathi's worship of two, individual beings who are, in her opinion, BOTH Almighty Gods?
You don't even believe that, do you Paul? But t8 has called this from about 9 months ago. He said that Kathi would slowly but surely transition into a “traditional Trinitarian” like you, Keith, Jack, and all the others that we've run out of HN on a scriptural rail.
And it seems he was right. When Kathi and I have personal conversations, she is not at all ashamed to boldly declare her belief in our TWO individual Almighty Gods. Yet when cornered in front of “traditional Trinitarians”, or just called out in public, all of a sudden she tries to manipulate words to DISGUISE the fact she worships TWO individual Almighty Gods.
Heck, if you came back and joined in on this discussion, her transition to traditional Trinitarian would go even faster, because of the peer pressure of someone she admires.
As it stands, she believes that Jesus is one individual BEING, and the Father is a DIFFERENT individual BEING, and that they “power up” together to form our one “Echad Godhead Thing”. She currently does NOT believe they are one BEING.
But come back to HN for a while, Paul, and you'll see how soon she will conform to your traditional Trinitarian belief of one BEING who consists of three PERSONS.
At any rate, while you're here for a moment, answer this one question for me:
Are you aware that Jesus has the same exact God that we all have? YES or NO?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 08 2012,20:48) I worship one Almighty YHWH Echad, an eternal unity, Mike.
And who did Jesus worship as his God, Kathi? When Jesus told us that his God was also our God, who was he talking about?Do you think in John 20:17 he was saying that his God an “Almighty YHWH Echad”? YES or NO?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,11:15) Are you aware that Jesus has the same exact God that we all have? YES or NO?
He he…nothing much changes here does it?!, I remember having this question thrust at me by another Arian generic (like yourself) about 5 years ago! (and again, and again, and again since….)Yes – Yeshua has a God, his Father. AS A MAN He would have transgressed the Law had He not, and would thereby not qualify as our perfect sacrifice.
Read Galatians 4:4, Hebrews 10:1-10.
Now my question to you Mike….how, logically, does this make Him ontologically inferior? Give me something concrete.
I know what ontioalogacal means. Obviously. :-).
Does the bible speak in antilogical terms, showing that he is, or isn't such?
I have never been one to make these distinctions–with God being one sort of being and Jesus another and angels another. It sems impossible to show anyway. In the same sense that a father is greater than his son, the God Almighty is above his Son. I think he is called father for a reason. I think everyone on the planet should understand that a father is different from his son.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 09 2012,19:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,11:15) Are you aware that Jesus has the same exact God that we all have? YES or NO? Yes – Yeshua has a God, his Father.
Okay, great answer. So, if the God of Jesus is the Father, and Jesus himself says that his God is also OUR God, then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that OUR God is also The Father.Jesus WORSHIPED the same God as the Jews worshiped. And Jesus HAS the same God as we have. End of story. The rest is just fancy words to try to confuse people into believing that the Son of God is the very God he is the Son of.
I have to say it:
Your ontological question is anti-logical. I choose to sidestep it and focus on things that are actually in the Bible.
Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,12:48) I have never been one to make these distinctions–with God being one sort of being and Jesus another and angels another. It sems impossible to show anyway. In the same sense that a father is greater than his son, the God Almighty is above his Son.
Hi David,
To me this is the core of the christological issue we're perpetually debating here, so we should at least try to make sense of the data and form an opinion.Quote I think he is called father for a reason.
I think so too. However, I'm not sure how the Watchtower doctrine of Yeshua being created by God supports this precept.Whether one being is created or not created…how much do we really know about this process to say one way or another whether one almighty being creating or not creating another mighty being can or cant be ontologically the same. It's simply speculation.
Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,13:04) I have to say it: Your ontological question is anti-logical. I choose to sidestep it and focus on things that are actually in the Bible.
I don't respect that approach at all.If you're contention is that Yeshua is a less than God on the basis that He has a God, and inferiority in nature is the only meaningful context to apply to this, then it's legitimate for me to challenge you (and any other Arian) to define the logical basis of your argument. So….
How, logically, does Yeshua having His Father as His God prove that He is lesser in His being?
Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,13:07) Lets leave ad hominids out of this. 🙂
“ad hominids” – Ha! You haven't lost your sense of homour I see.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 09 2012,19:40) How, logically, does it make Him lesser in the nature of His being?
Well, for one, Jesus SAID he was lesser than his God. (Oh, but you'll try the “He said that when he was made lower than the angels” crap, right? But that statement only proves that you guys flip flop between “Jesus was 100% God on earth”, and “Jesus said that when he was in a lesser state” – depending on when each claim suits you.
So, when Jesus was raised from the dead, and said he had been given “all authority in heaven and earth”, was he 100% God Almighty? (Because it was when he was in THIS state that he said our God was also his God.)
Oh, and even after being raised to heaven and seated at the right hand of our God and his God, he continues to call Jehovah “my God”.
Paul, you can keep “ontological”, and your other fancy words all to yourself. They don't make a single difference in the teachings of scripture, and are only used by those who intend to mislead others. God didn't need to use words like that to get His truth across in the scriptures, and I sure don't need to use them to teach others about what the scriptures teach. (Btw, there is no scripture that says Jesus has the same “nature” as his God in the first place, and even if there was, what would it prove? God's “nature” is “spirit being”. It would only be natural for all the spirit sons of God to share His spirit nature.
)Thank you for your answer, Paul. I agree that the God of Jesus is the Father. And I agree with Jesus that his God is also my God. So I will worship Jehovah my God, and serve Him only – just like my Lord Jesus Christ taught.
Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,13:07) Is 1:18. What data?
The data in the passages that reference:1. The nature of the sonship of Yeshua
2. The nature of the paternity of the Father
3. Yeshua having His Father as His God
4. The nature of the Father and Son beingsQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,13:14) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 09 2012,19:40) How, logically, does it make Him lesser in the nature of His being?
Well, for one, Jesus SAID he was lesser than his God. (Oh, but you'll try the “He said that when he was made lower than the angels” crap, right? But that statement only proves that you guys flip flop between “Jesus was 100% God on earth”, and “Jesus said that when he was in a lesser state” – depending on when each claim suits you.So, when Jesus was raised from the dead, and said he had been given “all authority in heaven and earth”, was he 100% God Almighty? (Because it was when he was in THIS state that he said our God was also his God.)
Oh, and even after being raised to heaven and seated at the right hand of our God and his God, he continues to call Jehovah “my God”.
Paul, you can keep “ontological”, and your other fancy words all to yourself. They don't make a single difference in the teachings of scripture, and are only used by those who intend to mislead others. God didn't need to use words like that to get His truth across in the scriptures, and I sure don't need to use them to teach others about what the scriptures teach. (Btw, there is no scripture that says Jesus has the same “nature” as his God in the first place, and even if there was, what would it prove? God's “nature” is “spirit being”. It would only be natural for all the spirit sons of God to share His spirit nature.
)Thank you for your answer, Paul. I agree that the God of Jesus is the Father. And I agree with Jesus that his God is also my God. So I will worship Jehovah my God, and serve Him only – just like my Lord Jesus Christ taught.
There's no attempt to define relative “natures” of the Father and Son within a scriptual framewark, and no attempt to link these to the argument you've posited about Yeshua having His Father as His God.try again.
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