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Your YHWH is only the God of gods, t8, mine is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords. Maybe if you ask the Father, He will be gracious to you and give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know Him better.
It is not hard Kathi. It really isn't.
If the greatest power the Father makes Jesus Lord of his creation, then Jesus is lord because the greatest said so and made so.
To anyone who can read scripture and reason, that person would understand that Jesus would not be lord over the one who made him Lord.
Even scripture says that when all things are under his feet (except God) that Jesus will give it back to God so that he can be in all.
For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
You are just playing around with words and using them in ways that were not meant to be. The result for you is further searing of the conscience making it harder to know when you are doing wrong.
The Father is God because he is.
Jesus is Lord because God made him to be Lord.
And we are the sons of God because God gave us the opportunity to share in his spirit and be born of that spirit.Jesus is not Lord over the Father, t8, He is Lord over the created lords.
Together the Father and Son are the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the YHWH Echad, the eternal unity.
When did Jesus become a theos or was He always a theos according to you?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2012,03:50) Jesus is not Lord over the Father, t8, He is Lord over the created lords.
Why are you telling me this?Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2012,03:50) Together the Father and Son are the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the YHWH Echad, the eternal unity.
No Kathi. Scripture teaches otherwise. Let everyone read for themselves and make up their own mind. Once a person subscribes to an external creed, then scripture will be manipulated to support that creed.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2012,03:50) When did Jesus become a theos or was He always a theos according to you?
When did angels become theos or elohim?
Same question in a way.I will let you ponder such.
I have other things to do.
For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
Let's translate this into the Kathi dialect.
For God the Father, not God the Son has put everything under God the Son's feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under God the Son, it is clear that this does not include the God the Father himself, who put everything under the Son God Christ who is the other YHWH BTW IMO.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,21:03)
Wisdom wasn't created, it was brought forth.
Proverbs 8:22
NET ©
The Lord created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.NIV ©
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;NLT ©
“The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.MSG ©
“GOD sovereignly made me–the first, the basic–before he did anything else.BBE ©
The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past.NRSV ©
The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago.Kathi, these all speak of someone being “made”, “formed”, “brought forth (into existence)”, or “created”.
If you consider Jesus to be the wisdom of which Solomon wrote, then you are acknowleging that Jesus was created.
Quote You agree that God the Father is from eternity, then so is the Son. Apart from there being an eternal Son there is no eternal Father.
I agree that the One we now know as “God the Father” has existed from eternity. I do NOT agree that any scripture says this One was a father before He begat His Son Jesus.Do you know of a scripture that says this? If not, then use your common sense. If I said that “Mother Hubbard” was born in 1800, it would mean that the woman WE NOW KNOW AS “Mother Hubbard” was born in 1800. It wouldn't mean that she was a mother of children from the minute she was born.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,21:18) The verse isn't meant to teach who YHWH is, Mike.
So then it was useless for you to try and use that scripture as support for your “One Echad” thing, right?
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2012,22:10)
Here is what you are implicating:2) That Jesus was made both Lord and Christ, and that he has always been God too.
She claims that Jesus was MADE Lord – even though he HAS ALREADY BEEN Lord from eternity.Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2012,22:10) You are drunk on your own doctrine and cannot reason or think clearly.
Agreed. That is an accurate way to describe Kathi and her ever-changing doctrines.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,22:10) Well, I differ in that I don't see from scriptures the Holy Spirit as an individual person with a separate will and mind.
THAT'S where you differ?
How about the fact that Trinitarians believe in ONE Almighty God, while YOU believe in TWO? I'd say that the extra Almighty God is your main difference.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,22:16) Paul is not identifying the Father as the one YHWH or the one God in the fullest sense of the word.
Hmmmm………………..How do you know? From the other things Paul says about our “one God, the Father”, it seems to me that he considers Him to be “God in the fullest sense of the word”.
What scriptural proof do you have to make the claim you made?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,22:20) t8,
It is like you are almost getting it but then you don't. It really is simple and most Christians agree that the Father and Son are both YHWH. I don't know why you think I am the only one.
How many organized denominations teach about our TWO Almighty Gods, Kathi?There is only you that I'm aware of.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,22:39) You, t8 believes that YHWH is ONLY the God of gods and not also the Lord of lords. I believe that YHWH is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords.
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.Who is the Lord in the above verse, Kathi? How about in the following verse?
Acts 17:24
“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.It is so easy to see how far you are reaching, Kathi. Consider that Jesus is “the Lord of lords, and King of kings”. Yet, Nebuchadnezzar and Artaxerxes are both called “the King of kings” in scripture.
Shall we nonsensically imagine that Jesus, in the fullest sense, really consists of himself, Nebuchanezzar, and Artaxerxes?
Shall we PRETEND that Jesus is an Echad Unity made up of three persons – just because more than one person is called “King of kings” in the scripture?
Kathi, is it possible that Jehovah is a Lord of other lords AS WELL AS Jesus being a Lord of other lords? Is it possible that they can both have the same title WITHOUT being some compound unity – just like Jesus and Artaxerxes have the same title without being a compound unity?
Even during the days when Artaxerxes was considered “the King of kings”, don't you suppose that King Jesus was still over him? And don't you suppose that since the head of Jesus is God, that God, as the Ultimate King of kings, is still over Jesus as King of kings, who is subsequently over Artaxerxes as King of kings?
You are making a mish-mash of the scriptures simply because you WANT them to teach something they clearly don't. It's sad, really.
mike
Quote You are making a mish-mash of the scriptures simply because you WANT them to teach something they clearly don't. It's sad, really. I second that motion
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 02 2012,21:13) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2012,03:50) Jesus is not Lord over the Father, t8, He is Lord over the created lords.
Why are you telling me this?
Because you said this and implied that I was saying that Jesus was the Lord of the Father. I am not saying that.Quote To anyone who can read scripture and reason, that person would understand that Jesus would not be lord over the one who made him Lord. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2012,16:47) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2012,22:10)
Here is what you are implicating:2) That Jesus was made both Lord and Christ, and that he has always been God too.
She claims that Jesus was MADE Lord – even though he HAS ALREADY BEEN Lord from eternity.Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2012,22:10) You are drunk on your own doctrine and cannot reason or think clearly.
Agreed. That is an accurate way to describe Kathi and her ever-changing doctrines.
What ever changing doctrines?Didn't the Son empty Himself and become lower than the angels yet wasn't He involved in creating the angels? The Lord who was involved in the very creation of the angels became lower than the angels and took on the nature of a servant and appearance of man. Therefore, He was not Lord according to His flesh until the Father gave Him all authority after His resurrection. He was however Lord according to His divinity. Elizabeth called Jesus her Lord when He was in the womb of Mary, before acting in the flesh and gaining victory over sin. Obviously, He was already Lord in some sense before He became lower than the angels. Even on the day of His incarnated birth, the angels called Him 'Lord.'
Luke 2:11
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.Luke 1:43
“And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?So, if the Son was Lord in the womb of Mary when He was in the state of being lower than the angels, He must have been as least as high or higher than that before being made lower than the angels.
Think.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2012,19:31) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,22:39) You, t8 believes that YHWH is ONLY the God of gods and not also the Lord of lords. I believe that YHWH is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords.
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.Who is the Lord in the above verse, Kathi? How about in the following verse?
Acts 17:24
“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.It is so easy to see how far you are reaching, Kathi. Consider that Jesus is “the Lord of lords, and King of kings”. Yet, Nebuchadnezzar and Artaxerxes are both called “the King of kings” in scripture.
Shall we nonsensically imagine that Jesus, in the fullest sense, really consists of himself, Nebuchanezzar, and Artaxerxes?
Shall we PRETEND that Jesus is an Echad Unity made up of three persons – just because more than one person is called “King of kings” in the scripture?
Kathi, is it possible that Jehovah is a Lord of other lords AS WELL AS Jesus being a Lord of other lords? Is it possible that they can both have the same title WITHOUT being some compound unity – just like Jesus and Artaxerxes have the same title without being a compound unity?
Even during the days when Artaxerxes was considered “the King of kings”, don't you suppose that King Jesus was still over him? And don't you suppose that since the head of Jesus is God, that God, as the Ultimate King of kings, is still over Jesus as King of kings, who is subsequently over Artaxerxes as King of kings?
You are making a mish-mash of the scriptures simply because you WANT them to teach something they clearly don't. It's sad, really.
Context tells you that Jesus is not a king of kings like Neb and Art. Jesus is never said to be one with Neb and Art but Jesus said He is one with the Father. Paul says that we have one God the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ.Lord and God are terms that are used for both the Father and Son, they are interchangeable.
Jesus is said to be Lord of all. The Father is also said to be Lord of heaven and earth. This shows unity of two powers in heaven.
Quote Kathi, is it possible that Jehovah is a Lord of other lords AS WELL AS Jesus being a Lord of other lords? Jehovah the Son is Lord of lords and is called Jesus upon His incarnation, so the answer is yes.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2012,16:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,22:20) t8,
It is like you are almost getting it but then you don't. It really is simple and most Christians agree that the Father and Son are both YHWH. I don't know why you think I am the only one.
How many organized denominations teach about our TWO Almighty Gods, Kathi?There is only you that I'm aware of.
All the Christian churches that I have attended all my life believe that the Father and Son are both YHWH yet one unity as YHWH.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2012,16:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,22:16) Paul is not identifying the Father as the one YHWH or the one God in the fullest sense of the word.
Hmmmm………………..How do you know? From the other things Paul says about our “one God, the Father”, it seems to me that he considers Him to be “God in the fullest sense of the word”.
What scriptural proof do you have to make the claim you made?
Paul clearly tells us that of all the powers in heaven and on earth that are for us, there are only two who are for us and only one of them is the Father. Obviously one of the two powers for us would not be the fullness of the powers that are for us.1 Cor 8:6
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