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Okay. I hadn't read your previous comment.
I checked out the verse in a number of translations and most had it while a few didn't.
I will look it up in the Greek.
But before I do. You say that God was eternally the Father because he always had a son. Where did you get that from exactly. Your own mind, or do you have a scripture to back this up. Just a scripture will do. I don't need an essay.
Okay I couldn't see the word “Father” in the Greek Text.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/heb5.pdfSo are you saying that the word son is not related to being begotten in that verse?
“Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.”
T8,
Why can't you see that I believe in one YHWH Echad that is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ together with their united Spirit. See my signature.If you are going to 'laugh' about what I believe, at least write it in a way that is complete. Why don't you just copy this and save it somewhere if you think you have to write about it so frequently:
Kathi believes in one YHWH Echad, the eternal unity, that is one eternal God, the Father and one eternal Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, together with their united Spirit.
You need to quote that bolded sentence, t8, do not add to it or subtract from it, or you likely will be falsely representing me on something so important as this is.
Your own belief is not on the list. Would this sum you up:
t8 believes in one YHWH that is God who was not a Father but became a Father at some point before creation when He beget His first of many sons. That son is not the same type as his Father though but a similar type, a lessor type. The Spirit is the spirit of the Father only.How did I do t8?
The word 'son' is related to that verse.
'Thou art my Son, today I have begotten you.” This is correct.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2012,00:02) T8,
Why can't you see that I believe in one YHWH Echad that is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ together with their united Spirit. See my signature.If you are going to 'laugh' about what I believe, at least write it in a way that is complete. Why don't you just copy this and save it somewhere if you think you have to write about it so frequently:
Kathi believes in one YHWH Echad, the eternal unity, that is one eternal God, the Father and one eternal Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, together with their united Spirit.
You need to quote that bolded sentence, t8, do not add to it or subtract from it, or you likely will be falsely representing me on something so important as this is.
Your own belief is not on the list. Would this sum you up:
t8 believes in one YHWH that is God who was not a Father but became a Father at some point before creation when He beget His first of many sons. That son is not the same type as his Father though but a similar type, a lessor type. The Spirit is the spirit of the Father only.How did I do t8?
Have I not repeated your belief a number of times already?Did I not post even this day something like this:
Paul of Tarsus: For us there is one God the Father.
Kathi of America: For me there is one God the Father + Son/
KJ of America: For me there is one God the Father, Son, SpiritWhile you are reading this.
Which one do you want me to believe.
Paul of Tarsus, Kathi of America, or KJ or America.
Do you choose the second option?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2012,00:06) The word 'son' is related to that verse.
'Thou art my Son, today I have begotten you.” This is correct.
So Jesus became a son that day. What happened the day before? Was God still a Father? And to whom?Quote (t8 @ Nov. 02 2012,00:08) Kathi believes in one YHWH Echad, the eternal unity, that is one eternal God, the Father and one eternal Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, together with their united Spirit.
Can also be said like this right:Kathi believes in one YHWH substance, the eternal unity, that is one eternal God the Father and one eternal Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, but not son of God the Son part of God, who (the former) proceeds from the latter for all eternity and even more so, and together with their united Spirit they are One YHWH which is by definition a substance or essense containing the two persons, so is technically speaking not a HIM, but we will allow this language even though it is grammatically incorrect. And to those who respect the English language we permit the use of THEM when referring to YHWH. If anyone asks why say THEM when scripture doesn't use that type of language , just tell them to not question something beyond that which they could not possibly understand. Maybe mother Kathi understands but who are we mere sheeples to question.
Then you could setup a council and call all the bishops to your house. If they don't want to turn up, entice them with a free BBQ, and Kool Aid. Then put forward the creed after they have drank the Kool Aid and get them to agree by signing some kind of Creedal Document that represents the Global Church. Might need some letter head with Global Church written on it. A seal would also help. If they agree, then go forward and make disciples and persecute those that disagree.
I give you this advice for free to.
t8, the scripture doesn't say Jesus became a son that day, it just says He was begotten/brought forth that day. Were your sons you 'son' before they were born/begotten? Weren't they sons already for months before they were actually born?
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2012,05:08) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2012,00:02) T8,
Why can't you see that I believe in one YHWH Echad that is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ together with their united Spirit. See my signature.If you are going to 'laugh' about what I believe, at least write it in a way that is complete. Why don't you just copy this and save it somewhere if you think you have to write about it so frequently:
Kathi believes in one YHWH Echad, the eternal unity, that is one eternal God, the Father and one eternal Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, together with their united Spirit.
You need to quote that bolded sentence, t8, do not add to it or subtract from it, or you likely will be falsely representing me on something so important as this is.
Your own belief is not on the list. Would this sum you up:
t8 believes in one YHWH that is God who was not a Father but became a Father at some point before creation when He beget His first of many sons. That son is not the same type as his Father though but a similar type, a lessor type. The Spirit is the spirit of the Father only.How did I do t8?
Have I not repeated your belief a number of times already?Did I not post even this day something like this:
Paul of Tarsus: For us there is one God the Father.
Kathi of America: For me there is one God the Father + Son/
KJ of America: For me there is one God the Father, Son, SpiritWhile you are reading this.
Which one do you want me to believe.
Paul of Tarsus, Kathi of America, or KJ or America.
Do you choose the second option?
t8, you do not repeat what I believe accurately and completely and that paints an incomplete picture and a wrong picture.None of your options are what I would pick. I gave you a bolded statement for you to keep handy, use that and like I said, don't add to it or subtract from it.
t8,
I would not say one YHWH 'substancce' or much of the other stuff you said. The Son was begotten at one point in time and before that, He was within the Father. He is not begotten over and over if that is what you are implying.The Father, Son, nd Spirit are one YHWH Echad, one eternal unity.
t8,
I do not believe that YHWH is defined as a substance or essence. It seems to be more about an eternal existence.I believe Yeshua is the “essence” of the eternal existence (YHWH), to our corporeal world.
es·sence
1. The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something.
2. The most important ingredient; the crucial element.
3. The inherent, unchanging nature of a thing or class of things.
4.
a. An extract that has the fundamental properties of a substance in concentrated form.
b. Such an extract in a solution of alcohol.
c. A perfume or scent.
5. One that has or shows an abundance of a quality as if highly concentrated: a neighbor who is the essence of hospitality.
6. Something that exists, especially a spiritual or incorporeal entity.Hi William,
I believe the Son has an eternal existence and has the same essence as the Father who also has an eternal existence. So, I wouldn't say the Son IS the essence but HAS the essence of the Father. The Father and Son have eternal existence which makes them both YHWH and together with their Spirit, makes them one eternal unity, in other words YHWH Echad.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2012,00:55) t8,
I do not believe that YHWH is defined as a substance or essence. It seems to be more about an eternal existence.
Got it. I realise you differ here with the Triune Group.
So you say that God is the Father and the combination of the Father and son. But God is not the son because he is Lord.Both are YHWH, and one or both is God, except the lord when referenced without YHWH Father.
I think I have got it now. Have I?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2012,00:31) t8, the scripture doesn't say Jesus became a son that day, it just says He was begotten/brought forth that day. Were your sons you 'son' before they were born/begotten? Weren't they sons already for months before they were actually born?
“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.So he was the son, then he was begotten. Is this what you are saying?
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 02 2012,00:08) Paul of Tarsus: For us there is one God the Father.
Kathi of America: For me there is one God the Father + Son/
KJ of America: For me there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit
Kathi. Whom shall I believe. Kathi of America, KJ of America, or Paul of Tarsus.Would appreciate an answer here.
Kathi,
Are eternal beings ever said to have been “born”?
How about “begotten”?
“Created”?
“Brought forth as the first of someone else's works”?
Are they ever said to be “sons”?
We all agree that God the Father has existed from etenity, right? So let's use Him as the test:
Is God the Father ever said to have been “born”, “created”, “begotten”, or “brought forth as the first of someone else's works”? Is He the “son” of anyone?
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2012,16:16) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2012,00:55) t8,
I do not believe that YHWH is defined as a substance or essence. It seems to be more about an eternal existence.
Got it. I realise you differ here with the Triune Group.
So you say that God is the Father and the combination of the Father and son. But God is not the son because he is Lord.Both are YHWH, and one or both is God, except the lord when referenced without YHWH Father.
I think I have got it now. Have I?
Well, t8, you are getting closer…makin' progress.
God is the Father in most contexts in the NT and probably in the OT.
God in the general, fullest sense, is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
God is Jesus in some contexts.
YHWH is sometimes the Father, sometimes the Son and sometimes the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
When the Father is said to be the only true God, the Son is the only true Lord and both, together with their Spirit are part of the YHWH Echad, the eternal unity.Quote Both are YHWH, and one or both is God, except the lord when referenced without YHWH Father. Almost but more like this:
Both are YHWH, and one or both is God in the specific sense and general sense depending on context, and when referenced with the Father as the 'only true God' or 'God of gods,' Jesus is the 'one Lord' or 'Lord of lords,' i.e. 1 Cor 8:6, Deut 10:17.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2012,16:19) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2012,00:31) t8, the scripture doesn't say Jesus became a son that day, it just says He was begotten/brought forth that day. Were your sons you 'son' before they were born/begotten? Weren't they sons already for months before they were actually born?
“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.So he was the son, then he was begotten. Is this what you are saying?
Yes.
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