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Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 14 2012,16:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 14 2012,07:13) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 12 2012,15:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,06:16) Ed, Did you even read the points I made? Do you agree that if God was truly EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME, then God would be everyone and everything, and everyone and everything would be God?
Hi Mike,Everything is from God – right?
God bless
Ed J
Ed,First of all, address my point, please.
Secondly, all things COMING FROM GOD is far different than all things BEING GOD.
Hi Mike,I believe God is part of everyone. you do not?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjso God is also in all men wickedness according to eddy
Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 15 2012,04:29) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 30 2012,07:48) Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 28 2012,18:17) Posted a couple of posts earlier: “The pre-incarnate Christ was an extension of the Father interacting with man. Until at the appropriate time when this physical extension was emptied and used to impregnate Mary. From that point on He was totally human,”
Forgive me, Wm, but it seems to me like you're saying Jesus (the extension) was the father of Jesus (the human). Surely you don't mean that Jesus is his own father? At any rate, I can't get on board with any doctrine that calls for something that once was God Almighty becoming something that isn't God Almighty anymore.
Mike,
There was no “Jesus” until He was conceived in the womb. The pre-incarnate Christ (so as to not be confused with the Human Jesus) was a manifestation of the Father. I believe that this Manifestation was basically the first-born (prototype) in a glorified human body that we were modeled after and would have achieved had Adam of ate from the tree of life instead of the tree of good and evil.The basic design of the human condition is body, soul, and spirit. The body component has a mind that is intended to work in concert with the soul, but it is also capable of independent thoughts and desires as evidenced by our struggle with the flesh.
This mind gave the manifestation independence, thus we have the manifestation discussing with the Father things like Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and The Lord said to himself, “Should I tell Abraham what I am going to do now?
This manifestation was not God Almighty (the heavens cannot contain Him) but he represented God Almighty and spoke for Him (Angel of the LORD) It is similar to my mouth stating I am “me”, while the real me will outlast this material mouth, but this proclamation is true nonetheless.
This manifestation was emptied and used to father Jesus. Technically this emptied extension of the Father was the seed that allowed Jesus to be totally Human, begotten from a material body. Once emptied the Father lost His direct interaction with man for a time as He prepared “a priest who could empathize with our weaknesses”. And unlike the other high priests, he did not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed once for all, when he offered himself.
This postulation seems to allow for Jesus to go by the title of God, and for those pre-existent references, such as when people see God face to face (while being told that no one has seen Him) and for the Father to have fathered a truly human child. As far as I've found this harmonizes with all of scripture.
I'm not teaching this as fact but only offer it as what I arrived at after “connecting” the dots” found in scripture. However the nature of an infinite God cannot be put into a box.
My opinion – Wm
sktQuote Mike,
There was no “Jesus” until He was conceived in the womb. The pre-incarnate Christ (so as to not be confused with the Human Jesus) was a manifestation of the Father. I believe that this Manifestation was basically the first-born (prototype) in a glorified human body that we were modeled after and would have achieved had Adam of ate from the tree of life instead of the tree of good and evil.so why would it not be better to have start to eliminate the devil first
so their would have been no need to fix any other thing I do not thing God is in the car bussiness he does not need prototypes ,
reading and understanding scriptures goes together,and God did not plan to have men planting their own seeds in his field,(word)
How does God eliminate the devil?
I used the word “prototype” as that is what T8 said, I agree that God does not need redo's but like cars we are modeled after the “prototype”
Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 15 2012,07:55) How does God eliminate the devil? I used the word “prototype” as that is what T8 said, I agree that God does not need redo's but like cars we are modeled after the “prototype”
Wm
SKTso the prototype bying Adam right
image: form; appearance; semblance: We are all created in God's image.
We were made in the image of God, we are born after the image of Adam.
Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 15 2012,11:30) image: form; appearance; semblance: We are all created in God's image. We were made in the image of God, we are born after the image of Adam.
Wm
sktJOB 40:7 “Now gird up your loins like a man;
I will ask you, and you instruct MePS 7:12
If a man does not repent, He will sharpen His sword;
He has bent His bow and made it ready.
PS 22:6
But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people.PS 39:11 “With reproofs You chasten a man for iniquity;
You consume as a moth what is precious to him;
Surely every man is a mere breath. Selah.PR 5:21 For the ways of a man are before the eyes of the LORD,
And He watches all his paths.PR 10:23 Doing wickedness is like sport to a fool,
And so is wisdom to a man of understanding.PR 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight,
But the LORD weighs the motives.it seems that if you right you are making God coming like a man ,is that what God his
so your image his what
Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 14 2012,04:29) Mike,
There was no “Jesus” until He was conceived in the womb. The pre-incarnate Christ (so as to not be confused with the Human Jesus) was a manifestation of the Father. I believe that this Manifestation was basically the first-born (prototype) in a glorified human body that we were modeled after and would have achieved had Adam of ate from the tree of life instead of the tree of good and evil.The basic design of the human condition is body, soul, and spirit. The body component has a mind that is intended to work in concert with the soul, but it is also capable of independent thoughts and desires as evidenced by our struggle with the flesh.
This mind gave the manifestation independence, thus we have the manifestation discussing with the Father things like Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and The Lord said to himself, “Should I tell Abraham what I am going to do now?
This manifestation was not God Almighty (the heavens cannot contain Him) but he represented God Almighty and spoke for Him (Angel of the LORD) It is similar to my mouth stating I am “me”, while the real me will outlast this material mouth, but this proclamation is true nonetheless.
This manifestation was emptied and used to father Jesus. Technically this emptied extension of the Father was the seed that allowed Jesus to be totally Human, begotten from a material body. Once emptied the Father lost His direct interaction with man for a time as He prepared “a priest who could empathize with our weaknesses”. And unlike the other high priests, he did not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed once for all, when he offered himself.
This postulation seems to allow for Jesus to go by the title of God, and for those pre-existent references, such as when people see God face to face (while being told that no one has seen Him) and for the Father to have fathered a truly human child. As far as I've found this harmonizes with all of scripture.
I'm not teaching this as fact but only offer it as what I arrived at after “connecting” the dots” found in scripture. However the nature of an infinite God cannot be put into a box.
My opinion – Wm
Hi Wm,Thanks for sharing your understanding. Do you realize that “a manifestation of God” is simply an “appearing of God”?
So you have one God, and His “clone” or whatever, existing alone in heaven. How does this “manifestation of God” (which would have to also be God) become the Son of God? Did God become His own Son?
And you still have something that WAS God becoming something that isn't God anymore. Yet we're told that God is immutable, right? He never changes, right?
Tell me which part of my understanding doesn't align with all the scriptures:
From eternity, there was only God. Then, in the beginning, God created for Himself a Son. This Son was a powerful spiritual being, like the God who created him. And through this Son, God subsequently created all other things that exist.
Then, because God so loved the world and the humans He created through His Son, He chose not to even hold back His firstborn, but offered him up as a sacrificial Lamb to atone for the sins of mankind.
Hi Ed,
I will address your further points when you finally address the point I've been asking you to address, okay?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,06:16) Ed, Did you even read the points I made? Do you agree that if God was truly EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME, then God would be everyone and everything, and everyone and everything would be God?
Hi Mike,That is incorrect logic.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2012,15:19) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 12 2012,12:21) Oh gee, look Pierre, scripture says Jesus is worshiped and shows Jesus receiving worship. If I were playing with words, I don't believe that I would have so many scriptures that prove that I am not. You are exposed again to be speaking falsely!
Kathi,Does the Greek word “proskuneo” have other meanings besides “worship”?
You know it does, right? And since you know this already, could you tell me how you're so sure the word means “worshiped” in the case of Jesus – and not “did obeisance to”?
Also, could you tell me how you can conclude that Pierre spoke falsely, when you know the word has more than one meaning?
Mike,
Sometimes Jesus received proskuneo-ing that was an act of being highly revered and sometimes He received proskuneo-ing that was an act of being a theos type of being, i.e., after walking on water, healing the blind, healing the sick, being found alive after dying as He Himself predicted, knowing all things as the disciples said of Him, etc.Pierre seemed to say that Jesus never received worship as a theos but only as in the sense of 'honor' and I totally disagree.
The fact that He received worship as some type of theos would be an abomination in the eyes of the Father if He weren't someone who along with the Father should receive worship.
Many gods receive worship as a theos but it is an abomination to God for worship to be given to them. It is not an abomination for worship to be given to Jesus as a theos. The Father is glorified in that worship given to His Son.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2012,15:22) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 11 2012,23:48) Mike,
We do not need to know or believe in any theos aside from the Father and the Son for our eternal salvation.
So we need to believe in the only true God, and the holy Servant that He sent as His sacrificial Lamb? Yeah, that sounds about right. Jesus said the same thing in John 17:3, right?Just don't go confusing the holy Servant with the God he serves.
Mike,
Both are theos, one is exactly like the other yet one was begotten from the other. You only seem to see Jesus in the nature of a servant but He has the nature of God and should be served by all creation.Don't go confusing the nature of a servant with His true God nature. You have one without the other and miss the magnitude of how one who deserves service and glory and honor from all creation, yet put aside His glory, honor and service due Him to serve those who should be serving Him.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 15 2012,02:35) Tell me which part of my understanding doesn't align with all the scriptures: From eternity, there was only God.
no problem
Quote Then, in the beginning, God created for Himself a Son. Obviously I do not believe the pre-incarnate Christ was created but was the expression of the non-corporeal Father in a corporeal existence
Quote This Son was a powerful spiritual being, Is there a verse that states this?
Quote like the God who created him. Prior to being emptied everything the Father did in this world was done through this manifestation
Quote And through this Son, God subsequently created all other things that exist. agreed
Quote Then, because God so loved the world and the humans He created through His Son, “Then” I believe this was the plan from the foundations of the world
Quote He chose not to even hold back His firstborn, but offered him up as a sacrificial Lamb to atone for the sins of mankind. Agreed
Mike,
I'll answer questions you may have but I am not interested in arguing over this, as we are barely scratching the surface on this topic (I'm not going to argue over who's scratch is deepest).My opinion – Wm
mike
skt
Quote Mike,
I'll answer questions you may have but I am not interested in arguing over this, as we are barely scratching the surface on this topic (I'm not going to argue over who's scratch is deepest).this is the most comon answer I have receive durring many years talking to so called religeous people ,ONLY TO DEEP NO MORE ,LIKE THE TRUTH HAS A DEPT
THE ONLY MESUREMENT i FOUND IN SCRIPTURES “IS THE FRONT PAGE TO THE BACK PAGE”We believe, conformably to the evangelical and apostolical tradition, in one God, the father almighty, the framer, and maker, and provider of the universe, from whom are all things.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, his son, only-begotten god/deity [John 1:18], by whom are all things, who was begotten before all ages from the father, god from God [deity from the Deity], whole from whole, sole from sole, perfect from perfect, king from king, lord from lord, living word, living wisdom, true light, way, truth, resurrection, shepherd, door, both unalterable and unchangeable; exact image of the Deity, essence, will, power and glory of the father; the first born of every creature, who was in the beginning with God, God the Word, as it is written in the Gospel, and the Word was God' [John 1:1]; by whom all things were made, and in whom all things consist; who in the last days descended from above, and was born of a Virgin according to the Scriptures, and was made man, mediator between God and man, and apostle of our faith, and prince of life, as he says, 'I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me' [John 6:38]; who suffered for us and rose again on the third day, and ascended into heaven, and sat down on the right hand of the father, and is coming again with glory and power, to judge quick and dead.
And in the Holy Spirit, who is given to those who believe for comfort, and sanctification, and initiation, as also our Lord Jesus Christ enjoined His disciples, saying, 'Go ye, teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit' [Matt 28: 19]; namely of a Father who is truly father, and a son who is truly son, and of the Holy Spirit who is truly Holy Spirit, the names not being given without meaning or effect, but denoting accurately the peculiar subsistence, rank, and glory of each that is named, so that they are three in subsistence, and in agreement one.
Holding then this faith, and holding it in the presence of God and Christ, from beginning to end, we anathematize every heretical heterodoxy. And if any teaches, beside the sound and right faith of the Scriptures, that time, or season, or age, either is or has been before the generation of the Son, be he anathema. Or if any one says, that the Son is a creature as one of the creatures, or an offspring as one of the offsprings, or a work as one of the works, and not the aforesaid articles one after another, as the divine Scriptures have delivered, or if he teaches or preaches beside what we received, be he anathema. For all that has been delivered in the divine Scriptures, whether by Prophets or Apostles, do we truly and reverentially both believe and follow.
hey what do you all think of this confession?
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 16 2012,12:17) Andrew, I agree with that confession.
I actually like this confession too;better than Nicea since it doesn't create three Gods and try to make them be one.
This confession is The Second Arian Confession (Antioch, 341 AD)
In 341 A.D. two Arian Councils were held in Antioch, Palestine; ninety-seven Bishops attended and during the first Arian Council the first, second (The Creed of the Dedication) and third Arian Confessions were written. This laid down the foundations of an Arian doctrine of faith that opposed the Nicaean Creed.here is the first confession
First Arian Confession (Antioch, 341 AD)
For we have been taught from the first, to believe in one God, the God of the Universe, the Framer and Preserver of all things both intellectual and sensible.
And in One Son of God, Only-begotten, who existed before all ages, and was with the Father who had begotten Him, by whom all things were made, both visible and invisible, who in the last days according to the good pleasure of the Father came down; and has taken flesh of the Virgin, and jointly fulfilled all His Father’s will, and suffered and risen again, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father, and cometh again to judge quick and dead, and remaineth King and God unto all ages.
And we believe also in the Holy Ghost; and if it be necessary to add, we believe concerning the resurrection of the flesh, and the life everlasting.
(Athanasius, De Synodis, 22. LPNF, ser. 2, vol. 4, 461And here is the third
Third Arian Confession (Antioch, 341 AD)
God knows, whom I call as a witness upon my soul, that so I believe:- in God the Father Almighty, the Creator and Maker of the Universe, from whom are all things.
And in His Only-begotten Son, Word, Power, and Wisdom, our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things; who has been begotten from the Father before the ages, perfect God from perfect God, and was with God in subsistence, and in the last days descended, and was born of the Virgin according to the Scriptures, and was made man, and suffered, and rose again from the dead, and ascended into the heavens, and sat down on the right hand of His Father, and cometh again with glory and power to judge quick and dead, and remaineth for ever:
And in the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the Spirit of truth (John 15:26), which also God promised by His Prophet to pour out (Joel 2:28) upon His servants, and the Lord promised to send to His disciples: which also He sent, as the Acts of the Apostles witness.
But if any one teaches, or holds in his mind, aught beside this faith, be he anathema; or with Marcellus of Ancyra, or Sabellius, or Paul of Samosata, be he anathemas both himself and those who communicate with him
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