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Journey43,
Quote because at that time, the fallen angels were not yet kicked out of heaven. There dwelling place is earth but that does not mean they are banned from visiting heaven.
Satan is still doing the same sort of things he did with Job and for that requires permission from God.
Kerwin, you posted the same thing as me sort of (reg translations),it took well over an hour on the mobile, lol.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2013,05:32) Quote (2besee @ Oct. 30 2013,19:38) All: Be careful what you read here. My Bible (The Jerusalem Bible) says:
“Then the spirit came forward and stood before Yahweh.”
Yes 2B,That was the point we were making to Kerwin – who was under the impression that angels are not spirits, but flesh beings.
We were pointing out to him that the angel in that verse is specifically called a “spirit” – in an effort to show him that angels are indeed spirits.
Mike,You do not believe angels are non-corporeal beings.
One thing is that this passage is prophecy and prophecy often uses symbolism.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 01 2013,05:57) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 01 2013,10:42) Wakeup, I live in the United States.
Greetings to you kerwin.
You should notice the great difference living
in the U.S today.
They are out to kill the dollar.
This is out of the horses mouth.wakeup.
Wakeup,China is not innocent of that charge as it is to a countries self interest to devalue their currency and then lie and make it seem like it is worth less than it is. It does not help me as my saved wealth grows smaller every day.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 31 2013,18:13) Mike, You do not believe angels are non-corporeal beings.
I believe angels are spirits who possess spiritual bodies. The standard definition of “non-corporeal” is useless when discussing things not of this world. I've listed examples where that word doesn't even always apply when discussing certain things that ARE of this world.Kerwin, is it possible that angels ARE spirits, like the scriptures say? And that they have spiritual bodies, like the scriptures say? And that just because human beings can't readily SEE those bodies doesn't mean they aren't bodies?
Quote (2besee @ Oct. 31 2013,18:03) There is no Hebrew equivalent for the English word “evil”. It doesn't exist in that language.
Thanks for the info, 2B. I'll also point out that when you read “evil spirit” in the NT, the Greek actually says “unclean spirit”.Quote Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Quote journey42, Have you done anything to test the spirit of your understanding of that passage?
KerwinI have provided proof to Pierre that God creates evil.
Now you are attacking my KJV bible,
claiming yours is superior,
therefore THEY should make this a NON KJV site,
for what scriptures we provide is null and void in your eyes.Quote Perhaps you thought to look at how the ESV words it. Isaiah 45:7
English Standard Version (ESV)7 I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the Lord, who does all these things.Quote a : causing harm : pernicious Then there are the definitions of ra' which can be translated to evil as in calamity or evil as in moral.
If you did then you would have found that though your interpretation is allowed it is not a definite thing and it seems to contradict the words.
You cannot understand that God created everything that exists, even evil. This does not make God evil, but he put it there in the first place and it is used as a tool.Quote James 1:13
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Now you are giving the KJV when it suits you?Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 31 2013,19:04) Kerwin I have provided proof to Pierre that God creates evil.
Now you are attacking my KJV bible,
claiming yours is superior,
therefore THEY should make this a NON KJV site,
for what scriptures we provide is null and void in your eyes.
That's a pretty harsh comment to someone who was merely pointing out that the Hebrew word “ra” doesn't necessarily have to be translated into English as “evil”.journey, doesn't the information that 2B and Kerwin gave make you think? Or are you so sure that the KJV is the ONLY truthful Bible that you will refuse to see any flaws in it, or even see that there are other faithful ways to translate certain Hebrew and Greek words?
This is what I see as the problem with people like you and Ed, who swear ONLY by the KJV. It is only because the KJV has “evil” in those verses, when the word is BETTER translated as “calamity”, “adversity”, or “disaster”, that you and Wakeup have come to believe the ABSURD notion that God Almighty, who is love, would CREATE “evil”.
Open up your eyes, folks. Know that the KJV is a fine translation that was made from VERY RECENT Greek mss, and even partially back-translated from the Latin Vulgate – because they didn't have access to Greek mss for the entire NT.
We have since uncovered MUCH OLDER Greek mss, which are much less likely to have been tampered with as the more recent ones from which the KJV was translated.
The KJV is a fine translation. It is not PERFECT. And saying that God CREATED evil is one of their many flaws.
The FACT of the matter is the Hebrew word could be translated a number of ways. The KJV translators CHOSE to translate it as “evil” – which I believe is a flawed choice on their part.
Mike Amen.
Journey,
Quote
*Exodus 32:14* And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.Again, the word is not 'evil'.
Check it out here:
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2013,12:30) Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 31 2013,19:04) Kerwin I have provided proof to Pierre that God creates evil.
Now you are attacking my KJV bible,
claiming yours is superior,
therefore THEY should make this a NON KJV site,
for what scriptures we provide is null and void in your eyes.
That's a pretty harsh comment to someone who was merely pointing out that the Hebrew word “ra” doesn't necessarily have to be translated into English as “evil”.journey, doesn't the information that 2B and Kerwin gave make you think? Or are you so sure that the KJV is the ONLY truthful Bible that you will refuse to see any flaws in it, or even see that there are other faithful ways to translate certain Hebrew and Greek words?
This is what I see as the problem with people like you and Ed, who swear ONLY by the KJV. It is only because the KJV has “evil” in those verses, when the word is BETTER translated as “calamity”, “adversity”, or “disaster”, that you and Wakeup have come to believe the ABSURD notion that God Almighty, who is love, would CREATE “evil”.
Open up your eyes, folks. Know that the KJV is a fine translation that was made from VERY RECENT Greek mss, and even partially back-translated from the Latin Vulgate – because they didn't have access to Greek mss for the entire NT.
We have since uncovered MUCH OLDER Greek mss, which are much less likely to have been tampered with as the more recent ones from which the KJV was translated.
The KJV is a fine translation. It is not PERFECT. And saying that God CREATED evil is one of their many flaws.
The FACT of the matter is the Hebrew word could be translated a number of ways. The KJV translators CHOSE to translate it as “evil” – which I believe is a flawed choice on their part.
Mike B.Please answer these questions.
1. Did God create lucifer? Y/N?
2. Is he the destroyer? Y/N?
3. DID God create the night also?Y/N?
4.Did God know before he began to create lucifer
that he would evil? Y/N?
5.God chose judas as one of his apostle;
did he know that he is going to betray Jesus?Y/N?As for the kjv. it is a good translation,but there are some other old translations that are as good.
I personally can not fault the kjv.wakeup.
Journey42,
Quote Now you are attacking my KJV bible, That is not what I did. I did sarcastically point out that you should test your own interpretation by using other versions, an English dictionary, and look at the meaning in the original language. In the end those other sources just reveal the word “evil” has more meaning than the one you chose for it. Your interpretation of the word evil seems to introduce a break in Scripture, and that cannot be.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2013,06:44) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 31 2013,18:13) Mike, You do not believe angels are non-corporeal beings.
I believe angels are spirits who possess spiritual bodies. The standard definition of “non-corporeal” is useless when discussing things not of this world. I've listed examples where that word doesn't even always apply when discussing certain things that ARE of this world.Kerwin, is it possible that angels ARE spirits, like the scriptures say? And that they have spiritual bodies, like the scriptures say? And that just because human beings can't readily SEE those bodies doesn't mean they aren't bodies?
Mike,You are using an English definition of spirit that may not be supported by the Koine Greek word that it is translated to. The lexicons I have read are vague or even more vague about the meanings.
It sounds like the Koine Greek word that is translated demon is more like our word spirit in some ways.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 01 2013,13:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2013,06:44) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 31 2013,18:13) Mike, You do not believe angels are non-corporeal beings.
I believe angels are spirits who possess spiritual bodies. The standard definition of “non-corporeal” is useless when discussing things not of this world. I've listed examples where that word doesn't even always apply when discussing certain things that ARE of this world.Kerwin, is it possible that angels ARE spirits, like the scriptures say? And that they have spiritual bodies, like the scriptures say? And that just because human beings can't readily SEE those bodies doesn't mean they aren't bodies?
Mike,You are using an English definition of spirit that may not be supported by the Koine Greek word that it is translated to. The lexicons I have read are vague or even more vague about the meanings.
It sounds like the Koine Greek word that is translated demon is more like our word spirit in some ways.
Kerwin.You should go to college and study theology.
But they also dont have the truth.wakeup.
J42
Quote Kerwin I have provided proof to Pierre that God creates evil.
Now you are attacking my KJV bible,
claiming yours is superior,
therefore THEY should make this a NON KJV site,
for what scriptures we provide is null and void in your eyes.Isaiah 45:7 Click this icon to open a printer friendly page
Context
NET ©
I am 1 the one who forms light and creates darkness; 2 the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. 3 I am the Lord, who accomplishes all these things.
NIV ©
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
NASB ©
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
NLT ©
I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.
MSG ©
I form light and create darkness, I make harmonies and create discords. I, GOD, do all these things.
BBE ©
I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
NRSV ©
I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the LORD do all these things.
NKJV ©
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things .’SO YOU THINK THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN ME PROOF
I DO NOT THINK SO YOU HAVE DEGRADED GOD'S GLORY THAT IS YES YOU DID .GOD SAYS HE CREATED LIGHT AND BY IT HE CREATED DARKNESS ;WELL IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ;ALL KNOW WHEN YOU OPEN THE LIGHT IN A DARK ROOM YOU HAVE INSTANT SHADE OF LIGHT AND DARK SIDE ,ANYTHING THAT STOPS THE LIGHT WILL CREATE A DARK SPOT (BELOW TABLES ,CHAIRS AND WHAT NOT )
GOD SAYS ;Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil(THERE IS NO SUCH A WORD(EVIL) IN THE HEBREW LANGUAGE): I the LORD do all these things.;;SO I WILL USE THE NIV 1984 VERSION
Isa 45:7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.SO IT SAYS ;I BRING PROSPERITY AND CREATE DISASTER ; THIS IS ONLY TRUE INTO CREATION BECAUSE GOD'S CREATION WAS MADE PERFECT BUT ANGELS AND MEN GOT CORRUPTED AND SO BRING DISASTER ;BUT IT WAS NOT GOD MAKING ;IT IS A RESULT OF CHOICE FROM THE ANGELS AND MEN ,NOT GOD ;
I, the LORD, do all these things.
DOES GOD BRING FORTH ALL THOSE THING
OR IS IT MEN CORRUPTION THAT HAS BRING ALL THOSE THINGS UPON HIMSELF BECAUSE OF THE RIGHTEOUSNESS AND GLORY OF GOD DID NOT GOD SAYS TO BE SUBMIT AND OBEY HIM SO THAT ALL WILL GO GOOD FOR US YES BUT DO WE LISTEN MOST OF US DO NOT J42
Quote You cannot understand that God created everything that exists, even evil. This does not make God evil, but he put it there in the first place and it is used as a tool. NO, GOD NEVER CREATED EVIL ;BUT WITH ONE “DO NOT DO THIS ” (EAT OF THE TREE )HE HAD CREATED THE LIGHT BUT ALSO THE POSSIBILITY OF DARKNESS ;FULL LIGHT DOES NOT GIVE DARKNESS ONLY PARTIAL LIGHT DOES .(THE WORD EVIL MEANS WHAT
very, wicked, trouble, harm, wrong, sick, bad, worthless, wickedness, ill, crimes, envious, sore, loathsome, wrongly, evildoer, malignant, cruelly, miserable, malice, wretched, man, great, destroyed, surely, disaster, broken, break, destruction, false, iniquity, guilty, distress, mourning, friend, ruin, idol, sorrow, afflicted, vain, unjust, worse, calamity, affliction, breaks, smash, sad, wickedly, base, destroying, displeased,;ETC..IN ONE WAY ANYTHING THAT IS NOT OF GOD ,SO I DO NOT SHARE YOUR VIEW ON THIS
J42
Quote Now you are giving the KJV when it suits you? Ex 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
Ex 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
Ex 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
Ex 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.KJVEx 32:10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”
Ex 32:11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. “O LORD,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand?
Ex 32:12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people.
Ex 32:13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’ ”
Ex 32:14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.NIVWHAT IS IT THAT IS SO DIFFERENT IN THOSE TWO VERSION
BESIDE THAT THE KJV IS WRITTEN IN OLD ENGLISH AND HARD TO READ FOR MOST ,AND LIKE I SAY THE WORD “EVIL” WHAT DOES IT MEAN I HAVE GIVEN ALREADY THE MEANING OF THE WORD IN A PREVIOUS QUOTE DOES THE NAME OF THE LORD JEHOVAH APPEARS IN THE KJV VERSION
NOT IN THE ONE I HAVE 1611 AND OTHERS ,Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 01 2013,08:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2013,12:30) Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 31 2013,19:04) Kerwin I have provided proof to Pierre that God creates evil.
Now you are attacking my KJV bible,
claiming yours is superior,
therefore THEY should make this a NON KJV site,
for what scriptures we provide is null and void in your eyes.
That's a pretty harsh comment to someone who was merely pointing out that the Hebrew word “ra” doesn't necessarily have to be translated into English as “evil”.journey, doesn't the information that 2B and Kerwin gave make you think? Or are you so sure that the KJV is the ONLY truthful Bible that you will refuse to see any flaws in it, or even see that there are other faithful ways to translate certain Hebrew and Greek words?
This is what I see as the problem with people like you and Ed, who swear ONLY by the KJV. It is only because the KJV has “evil” in those verses, when the word is BETTER translated as “calamity”, “adversity”, or “disaster”, that you and Wakeup have come to believe the ABSURD notion that God Almighty, who is love, would CREATE “evil”.
Open up your eyes, folks. Know that the KJV is a fine translation that was made from VERY RECENT Greek mss, and even partially back-translated from the Latin Vulgate – because they didn't have access to Greek mss for the entire NT.
We have since uncovered MUCH OLDER Greek mss, which are much less likely to have been tampered with as the more recent ones from which the KJV was translated.
The KJV is a fine translation. It is not PERFECT. And saying that God CREATED evil is one of their many flaws.
The FACT of the matter is the Hebrew word could be translated a number of ways. The KJV translators CHOSE to translate it as “evil” – which I believe is a flawed choice on their part.
Mike B.Please answer these questions.
1. Did God create lucifer? Y/N?
2. Is he the destroyer? Y/N?
3. DID God create the night also?Y/N?
4.Did God know before he began to create lucifer
that he would evil? Y/N?
5.God chose judas as one of his apostle;
did he know that he is going to betray Jesus?Y/N?As for the kjv. it is a good translation,but there are some other old translations that are as good.
I personally can not fault the kjv.wakeup.
WQuote 1. Did God create lucifer? Y/N?
2. Is he the destroyer? Y/N?
3. DID God create the night also?Y/N?
4.Did God know before he began to create lucifer
that he would evil? Y/N?
5.God chose judas as one of his apostle;
did he know that he is going to betray Jesus?Y/N?ANSWER TO 1) NO,HE CREATED A PERFECT ANGEL A CHERUB;
2) YES ,SATAN BECAME THE DESTROYER WAS NOT CREATED THAT WAY;3)??? IN RELATION TO WHAT
4)NO,GOD IS LOVE HE DOES NOT SEE WICKEDNESS ONLY CORRUPTED MINDS SEE THAT .
5) JESUS CHOSE JUDAS ,BUT ALL MEN BELONG TO GOD ,AND YES CHRIST KNEW THAT JUDAS WAS GOING TO BETRAY HIM BUT IT IS NOT JESUS THAT MAKE HIM DO IT ,THIS WAS JUDAS VERY OWN MAKING ,READ THE SCRIPTURES ;
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 01 2013,08:19) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 01 2013,13:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2013,06:44) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 31 2013,18:13) Mike, You do not believe angels are non-corporeal beings.
I believe angels are spirits who possess spiritual bodies. The standard definition of “non-corporeal” is useless when discussing things not of this world. I've listed examples where that word doesn't even always apply when discussing certain things that ARE of this world.Kerwin, is it possible that angels ARE spirits, like the scriptures say? And that they have spiritual bodies, like the scriptures say? And that just because human beings can't readily SEE those bodies doesn't mean they aren't bodies?
Mike,You are using an English definition of spirit that may not be supported by the Koine Greek word that it is translated to. The lexicons I have read are vague or even more vague about the meanings.
It sounds like the Koine Greek word that is translated demon is more like our word spirit in some ways.
Kerwin.You should go to college and study theology.
But they also dont have the truth.wakeup.
Wakeup,I choose not to disobey God's instruction to seek knowledge.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 01 2013,08:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2013,06:44) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 31 2013,18:13) Mike, You do not believe angels are non-corporeal beings.
I believe angels are spirits who possess spiritual bodies. The standard definition of “non-corporeal” is useless when discussing things not of this world. I've listed examples where that word doesn't even always apply when discussing certain things that ARE of this world.Kerwin, is it possible that angels ARE spirits, like the scriptures say? And that they have spiritual bodies, like the scriptures say? And that just because human beings can't readily SEE those bodies doesn't mean they aren't bodies?
Mike,You are using an English definition of spirit that may not be supported by the Koine Greek word that it is translated to. The lexicons I have read are vague or even more vague about the meanings.
It sounds like the Koine Greek word that is translated demon is more like our word spirit in some ways.
k“ ‘You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
Eze 28:15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in youwe know that this verses are talking about satan ,and it describes his physical appearance but it his said by comparison, to preciouses stones by men view ,so that we could understand that it is the glory of those stones that are here target,and so not the physical aspect of them ,but their glory,
and so it tells us that angels have a body but not the same as men ,reason ? because they have not been created for the same purpose .
T,
I have no problem saying angels have a different body than man since they are not humans. I do know that Scripture does not substantiate any difference except for something to do with what sounds like beauty.
My problem is the body is composed of spirit which is immaterial. There is nothing in spirit to make a body of. I am not even sure how a ghost has a form.
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