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J42
Quote this answer is because you assume that the spirit his and angel ,right 
or no ?Yes, Definately an angel.
Notice God doesn't say “angel”, but “spirit”.
They are the same but this one's different,
and God probably worded it like that so that we can argue about it.1 Kings 22:22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? and he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets….
IT SAYS TO MY UNDERSTANDING IN THAT SCRIPTURE ” HIM” MEANS THE ANGEL =SON OF GOD RIGHT ?YES ,SO THE “LYING SPIRIT ” ARE EITHER 'DREAMS,SPOKEN WORDS WITH A CONTROVERSIAL MEANING THAT WOULD COME OUT AS A LIE THROUGH ALL OF THE PROPHETS MOUTH,
J42
Quote God is love yes.
But God can also be angry and vengeful. It's his right.
God can bring evil upon a city at his command,
and he doesn't use the righteous to do it.THE ANGER OF GOD HIS AGAINST THE WICKED ONE IN FAVOR OF THE RIGHTEOUS ONES ;IT IS HIS JUSTICE THAT CALLS IT AND HIS LOVE
GOD WILL NEVER BRING EVIL TO ANYONE ,IT IS MEN PERCEPTION THAT HE DOES IT BUT IT IS JUDGEMENT THAT HE MAKES ON SOME NATION ;
AND YES HE DOES NOT USES RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE TO DO IT BUT SAVE THEM FROM THE WICKED ONESJ42
Quote He went straight out and did it. I CAN SEE NEGOTIATION HERE
1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’
“One suggested this, and another that.
1Ki 22:21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’
1Ki 22:22 “ ‘By what means?’ the LORD asked.
“ ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
“ ‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’
1Ki 22:23 “So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yoursW
Quote Terra. All the angels were around God's throne.
Good and bad angels.
And one of the bad angels volunteered
to be a lying spirit.
FIRST WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEIR ARE MORE THAN ONE HEAVEN ;AND THAT NOT ALL ANGELS HAVE ACCESS TO ALL THE HEAVENS ,AS YOU SEE IN JOB 1 ;ONLY SATAN HAD ACCESS TO THE HEAVEN WERE THE THRONE OF GOD IS,NOT THE OTHERS OF SATAN ANGELS ,SATAN WAS AN CHERUB ANGEL AND SO HIS POSITION MUST ALLOW HIM TO BE THERE FOR THAT TIME ;AND NO THE LYING SPIRIT HIS NOT AN ANGEL READ YOUR SCRIPTURES AGAIN AND SEE
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 01 2013,10:25) Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 31 2013,14:43) Quote (2besee @ Oct. 31 2013,12:38) My Bible (The Jerusalem Bible) says:
“Then the spirit came forward and stood before Yahweh.”Names of God Bible
“Then the Ruach stepped forward, and stood in front of Yahweh”
Hi 2BesseWhy be careful?
A Spirit, the spirit, it makes no difference. We all get the message that one spirit spoke up and volunteered.Yes. 'The Spirit (or) A Spirit' does make a difference. Also, the Hebrew is 'I will become a deceiving spirit', not necessarily 'I will become a lying spirit'. Perhaps there is a difference?
We should be careful how we tread and what we say regarding this, for fear of blasphemy.My scripture says “The Spirit”, and the names of God Bible also says “The Ruach”.
Why would they say that?I don't know what your understanding of 'The Spirit' is?
My understanding is that the Spirit of God is God's own inner Spirit, while at the same time, it is a “Person”.
Isaiah 11:1-2
Then a shoot will come out from the stump of Jesse,
and a branch from its roots will bear fruit.
The Ruach Yahweh will rest on him—
the Ruach of wisdom and understanding,
the Ruach of advice and power,
the Ruach of knowledge and fear of Yahweh.1 Corinthians 15:45-47
This is what Scripture says:
“The first man, Adam, became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit
(From the Spirit that was in his flesh while on Earth)John 23:31-34
The person who comes from above is superior to everyone (The Spirit).
I, a person from the earth, know nothing but what is on earth,
and that’s all I can talk about.
The person who comes from heaven (The Spirit) is superior to everyone and tells what he has seen and heard.
Yet, no one accepts what he says.
I have accepted what that person said,
and I have affirmed that God is truthful.
The man whom God has sent (From the Jordan) speaks God’s message.
After all, God gives him the Spirit without limit.2 Corinthians 3:17
This Lord is the Spirit.
Wherever the Lord’s Spirit is, there is freedom.
As all of us reflect the Lord’s glory with faces that are not covered with veils,
we are being changed into his image with ever-increasing glory.
This comes from the Lord, who is the spirit.
Further,
Saying 'THE spirit came forward” is different than saying 'A spirit came forward'.'The' spirit could mean 'the one and only' spirit present, apart from God.
'A' spirit on the other hand, could mean one of many spirits.I took it to mean 'the one and only spirit' (present) came forward, from the way they worded it in my Bible.
So, this isolates the spirit which came forward as different than all else present, apart from God.If, as you and Wakeup say, it was one of Satan's angels, then, why did it not say that? I mean, it did elsewhere, such as in Job, when the sons of Elohim came to stand in front of Yahweh, and Satan the Accuser came along with them.
By the way, the sons of God, are also considered by some to be men.
Gills.
Again, there was a day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord,…. When good men, professors of religion, met together by agreement to worship the Lord; the Targum calls them companies of angels, interpreting the words of them, and of their standing before the Lord, as most interpreters do; how long this time of their meeting was from the former cannot be said….”
Wikipedia.
Sons of God.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_God
Christian antiquity.
Early Christian writers such as Justin Martyr, Eusebius, Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Commodianus have held the view that the “sons of God” in Genesis 6:1-4 were fallen angels who engaged in unnatural union with human women, resulting in the begetting of the Nephilim.
Modern Christians have argued against this view by reasoning on Jesus' comment in Matthew 22:30 that angels do not marry, although it only refers to angels in heaven. Others saw them as descendants of
Seth. Saint Augustine subscribed to this view, based on the orations of Julius Africanus, in his book City of God which refer to the “sons of God” as being descendants of Seth (or Sethites), the pure line of Adam. The
“daughters of men” are viewed as the descendants of Cain (or Cainites). Variations of this view was also received by Jewish philosophers. James M.Scott also proposes that the identification of Jesus as a Son of God arose from the Adoptionist theology that was later rejected at Nicea.Medieval Judaism
Traditionalists and philosophers of Judaism in the Middle Ages typically practiced rational theology . They rejected any belief in rebel or fallen angels since evil was considered abstract. Rabbinic sources, most notably the Targum, state that the “sons of God” who married the daughters of men were merely human beings of exalted social station.
They have also been considered as pagan royalty or members of nobility who, out of lust, married women from the general population. Other variations of this interpretation define these “sons of God” as tyrannical Ancient Near Eastern kings who were honored as divine rulers, engaging in polygamous behavior. No matter the variation in views, the primary concept by Jewish rationalists is that the “sons of God” were of human origin.
Most notable Jewish writers in support for the view of human “sons of God” were Saadia,Rashi, Lekah Tob , Midrash Aggada, Joseph Bekor Shor, Abraham ibn Ezra, Maimonides, David Kimhi, Nahmanides, Hizkuni , Bahya Ashur, Gersonides, Shimeon ben Yochai and Hillel ben Samuel.
ibn Ezra reasoned that the “sons of God” were men who possessed divine power, by means of astrological knowledge, able to beget children of unusual size and strength.
Jewish commentator Isaac Abrabanel
considered the aggadot on Genesis 6 to have referred to some secret doctrine and was not to be taken literally. Abrabanel later joined Nahmanides, and Levi ben Gerson in promoting the concept that the “sons of God” were the older generations who were closer to physical perfection, as Adam and Eve were perfect.
Though there are variations of this view, the primary idea was that Adam and Eve's perfect attributes were passed down from generation to generation. However, as each generation passed, their perfect physical attributes diminished. Thus, the early generations were mightier than the succeeding ones. The physical decline of the younger generations continued until the Flood, to the point that their days were numbered as stated in Genesis 6:3. It was immoral for the older generations to consort with the younger generations, whereby puny women begot unusually large children. Nephilim was even considered a stature.
Jewish philosophic preachers such as Jacob Anatoli and Isaac Arama viewed the groups and events in Genesis 6:1-4 as an allegory , primarily for the sin of lust that declined man's higher nature.”terraricca,Nov. wrote:[/quote]
Quote J42 Quote He created evil, and he said it himself. Quote SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURES Hi Pierre
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
terraricca,Nov. wrote:[/quote]
Quote IT SAYS TO MY UNDERSTANDING IN THAT SCRIPTURE ” HIM” MEANS THE ANGEL =SON OF GOD RIGHT ?YES ,SO THE “LYING SPIRIT ” ARE EITHER 'DREAMS,SPOKEN WORDS WITH A CONTROVERSIAL MEANING THAT WOULD COME OUT AS A LIE THROUGH ALL OF THE PROPHETS MOUTH,[/b] Pierre
Yes he was an angel. We agree on that.
This angel was one of the “sons of God”, yes we agree on that.
Angels are ministering spirits. They guide us, doing God's work, doing what you mentioned.
The angels that are not right with God, are also ministering spirits, but they minister evil. These angels are intelligent and powerful creatures with the ability to manipulate, put thoughts into one's mind, and guide the wrong way. They can also possess a person. Come in and out, or just whisper in one's ear or provoke thoughts in many peoples ears at once. Either way, they have the ability to control a person if that person is not right with God, for he has not protection. No truth in him.Quote (2besee @ Oct. 30 2013,19:38) All: Be careful what you read here. My Bible (The Jerusalem Bible) says:
“Then the spirit came forward and stood before Yahweh.”
Yes 2B,That was the point we were making to Kerwin – who was under the impression that angels are not spirits, but flesh beings.
We were pointing out to him that the angel in that verse is specifically called a “spirit” – in an effort to show him that angels are indeed spirits.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 01 2013,02:34) Quote (journey42 @ Nov. 01 2013,00:13) Why would God be guilty? It's his plan. He created evil, and he said it himself. This does not make God evil, but look around, and there is evil everywhere in the world. People get murdered, robbed, abused, etc. Who is doing this? The righteous? I don't think so.
Was hitler a righteous man when he killed 6 million Jews?
Was God too weak to stop it? Or did he allow it?
Ask yourself.
Journey……> You are right GOD is SOVEREIGN and can stop evil or bring it, just as scriptures say has and did . Even the Evil he allows or brings serves his GODLY Purpose. So the end of it is for the ultimate Good. IMO .Some like to think they are in own control by, their so-call, “Free Wills” But the fact is God is in Control of all creation from the start of it, to the finish of it. He allows what He allows and non can deliver from his hand, He and He “ALONE” is “SOVEREIGN” IMO.
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Thank you gene,Well put.
Quote (journey42 @ Nov. 01 2013,05:15) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 01 2013,08:35) Quote J42 Quote He created evil, and he said it himself. Quote SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURES Hi Pierre
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
journey42,Have you done anything to test the spirit of your understanding of that passage?
Perhaps you thought to look at how the ESV words it.
Isaiah 45:7
English Standard Version (ESV)7 I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the Lord, who does all these things.Quote a : causing harm : pernicious Then there are the definitions of ra' which can be translated to evil as in calamity or evil as in moral.
If you did then you would have found that though your interpretation is allowed it is not a definite thing and it seems to contradict the words.
James 1:13
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Wakeup and journey,
I've read your responses, and have heard what you're saying. I, however, disagree with you.
It is not beyond God to use deception to further His goal, and therefore we should not assume an angel who was willing to use deception is of Satan.
Consider the angel that killed 185,000 living human beings. Was that “angel of Jehovah” really one of Satan's angels because he murdered human beings for the good of God's nation? If not, then why would an angel who merely deceived some men (as opposed to killing them) for the good of God's nation have to belong to Satan?
The same argument can be made of the angels who destroyed Sodom, right? Surely there were infants and children in those towns who died, right? Yet that act was done at God's order, by faithful “good” angels of God.
I'm sure this is not a point that would keep anyone from everlasting life, and therefore not worth a heated argument. I just wanted you guys to see it from my point of view, and know why I don't have any reason to think this deceiving spirit was anything other than one of God's good and faithful angels.
peace to you both,
mikeQuote (journey42 @ Oct. 31 2013,06:54) mikeboll64,Oct. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Wakeup and journey, I used that same passage against Kerwin's claim earlier. It is that passage that got him to change from “ALL angels are flesh”, to “only SOME of them are flesh”.
Some progress there then!Quote But why do you guys think this spirit who deceived the prophets was an “evil spirit”, or a son of Satan? Wasn't it God who told him, “Deceive and overpower him. Go out and do as you have proposed” ? Yes, because at that time, the fallen angels were not yet kicked out of heaven. They could come and go as they please. They all took part in the heavenly meetings.
The holy angels of God are loyal and true. God is truth, but he also said he created evil. This does not mean that God is evil, but evil is used as a tool to “separate” the good from the bad,… angels included.I can't see the holy angels wanting to be a lying spirit, but only the angels who followed the Father of Lies (Satan) would get enjoyment out of it. Even though this particular angel obeyed God in carrying out this task, it revealed what was in his heart, and maybe God was testing them, but still used needed to use them for his purpose, for he is in control of everything.
Journey,God did create the hosts of evil but not the spirit of evil which I hypothesis is not created but an reaction to the spirit of righteousness.
Other than that what you write sounds correct.
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 01 2013,08:25) Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 31 2013,14:43) Quote (2besee @ Oct. 31 2013,12:38) My Bible (The Jerusalem Bible) says:
“Then the spirit came forward and stood before Yahweh.”Names of God Bible
“Then the Ruach stepped forward, and stood in front of Yahweh”
Hi 2BesseWhy be careful?
A Spirit, the spirit, it makes no difference. We all get the message that one spirit spoke up and volunteered.
Hi 2BesseQuote Yes. 'The Spirit (or) A Spirit' does make a difference. Also, the Hebrew is 'I will become a deceiving spirit', not necessarily 'I will become a lying spirit'. Perhaps there is a difference?
We should be careful how we tread and what we say regarding this, for fear of blasphemy.
The spirit entered him (the spirit already mentioned)
or
A spirit entered him. (a particular spirit, not mentioning who)The man entered the room (the man already mentioned)
or
a man entered the room. (a particular man, not mentioning who)It depends on what the sentence is, and how we understand which type of spirit we are talking about.
I agree, there are different ways of using the word spirit. In this case of the discussion, we are talking about a particular spirit, an angel.Quote My scripture says “The Spirit”, and the names of God Bible also says “The Ruach”.
Why would they say that?
When did your bible come out?Quote I don't know what your understanding of 'The Spirit' is? My understanding is that the Spirit of God is God's own inner Spirit, while at the same time, it is a “Person”.
You mean a creature, not person?Quote Isaiah 11:1-2
Then a shoot will come out from the stump of Jesse,
and a branch from its roots will bear fruit.
The Ruach Yahweh will rest on him—
the Ruach of wisdom and understanding,
the Ruach of advice and power,
the Ruach of knowledge and fear of Yahweh.
Interesting. I'm glad my bible is easy to understand with words I know.Quote 1 Corinthians 15:45-47
This is what Scripture says:
“The first man, Adam, became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit
(From the Spirit that was in his flesh while on Earth)
I understand that. The last Adam is Christ.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 31 2013,17:38) Isaiah 45:7
English Standard Version (ESV)7 I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the Lord, who does all these things.
Good point, Kerwin. “Evil” is not the only way that Hebrew word can be translated. It is very hard for me to think my Creator actually “created” evil.I believe He created beings who have the free will to choose whether to obey Him or not. And the things some of us do in disobedience to God is what is “evil”. But God didn't make any of us that way on purpose.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 31 2013,17:48) Ra' = adversety. Did God not create the adversary/satan?
wakeup.
Sure He did, Wakeup. But was Satan “evil” or an “adversary” when God created him? Did God purposely create Satan to be evil?I say no. And since you believe Ezekiel 28:11-19 refers to Satan, your answer also must be “No”, right?
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 01 2013,10:42) Wakeup, I live in the United States.
Greetings to you kerwin.
You should notice the great difference living
in the U.S today.
They are out to kill the dollar.
This is out of the horses mouth.wakeup.
Quote (journey42 @ Nov. 01 2013,12:15) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 01 2013,08:35) Quote J42 Quote He created evil, and he said it himself. Quote SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURES Hi Pierre
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Terraricca and Journey,Journey, exactly why you need to also look at other translations and the word meanings IF something does not seem right.
The original word in Hebrew is not “evil”. It's 'disaster' or 'calamity', or righty, 'adversity'.Here's some examples of other translations, which make more sense:
New International Version
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster.New Living Translation
I create the light and make the darkness.
I send good times and bad times.English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity.New American Standard Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity.Holman Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness,
I make success and create disaster.International Standard Version
I form light and create darkness,
I make goodness and create disaster.NET Bible
I am the one who forms light and creates darkness;
the one who brings about peace and
creates calamity.GOD'S WORD® Translation
I make light and create darkness.
I make blessings and create disasters.King James 2000 Bible
I form the light, and create darkness.
I make peace, and create calamityWorld English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity.
If you don't believe that, then look at the Hebrew word here:
http://biblehub.com/text/isaiah/45-7.htm
Which is “Ra” which means “Adversity” if you click the number to your left of the word.
http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/7451.htm
It is the same as in Genesis 2:17.
There is no Hebrew equivalent for the English word “evil”. It doesn't exist in that language.
ad·ver·si·ty ( d-vûr s -t )
n. pl. ad·ver·si·ties
1. A state of hardship or affliction; misfortune.
2. A calamitous event.e·vil ( v l)
adj. e·vil·er , e·vil·est
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.
n.
1. The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
2. That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
3. An evil force, power, or personification.
4. Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.
adv. Archaic
In an evil manner.See the Huge difference, yes?
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