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Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2013,12:28) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,22:02) 1. Where are you seeing “demon” in that passage? 2. Isn't it logical that “the hosts of heaven” in that passage are God's angels?
3. Isn't it also logical that the “spirit” that came forth with the idea was one of those “hosts of heaven” that were discussing this matter with God?
Mike,1) No angel of God will become a lying spirit as they are like God in that they do not tempt with evil……….
2) I would have assumed they were but the evidence seems to be that Satan and his host are considered in the host of heaven mentioned by Micaiah. This is consistent to the idea that Satan was among the sons of God who came before God in Job.
3) The contexts seems to show that this demon was a member of the host of heaven Micaiah was talking about.
1. Who told you that? The scriptures you listed don't say an angel can't befuddle the plans of evil men by deception. You say angels can't “tempt with evil” (which is not really what happened in this case), but we know that Satan is an angel, and has angels of his own.2. “Satan and his hosts”?
Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.Are these “angels” the “hosts” you are talking about?
3. Do you suppose God accepted the idea of a demon, and let that demon do as he proposed? And why would a demon want to help God with a human affair in the first place? Isn't it demons who try to lead us all away from God?
Mike,
Quote 1. Who told you that? The scriptures you listed don't say an angel can't befuddle the plans of evil men by deception. You say angels can't “tempt with evil” (which is not really what happened in this case), but we know that Satan is an angel, and has angels of his own. These men were tempted to prophesize (see note) falsely. Such a temptation can only come from the flesh.
It is plausible angels of God can use deception but tempting someone to commit false prophecy is beyond what they will choose to do.
Quote 2. “Satan and his hosts”? Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.Are these “angels” the “hosts” you are talking about?
Satan and his angels are who I am speaking of.
Quote 3. Do you suppose God accepted the idea of a demon, and let that demon do as he proposed? And why would a demon want to help God with a human affair in the first place? Isn't it demons who try to lead us all away from God? So let us look at the event in Job which I believe I previously preferred to.
Job 1:6-12
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.
In this passage Satan is in heaven before the throne of God and gives God advise that God, for his own reasons, chooses to heed.
Micaiah's words about this spirit that translates into a lying spirit apply the same pattern to one of Satan's minions. His seeming addition is that he appears to include this rebellious spirit as one of the hosts of heaven.
My reconciliation of Micaiah's words, Job 1:6-12 and Revelation 12:9 is Satan and his demon's are rebellious but they are still subject to God's reign, and so are part of his kingdom. In his kingdom they lost their domain in the heavens and were given earth as a place to rule instead. Sometimes they visit court or are summoned to court. They are no longer citizens of heaven though they are still members of God's hosts.
Note: Wiktionary, as of 10/18/2013, states that using this word is frowned on by many of the authorities.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 18 2013,10:08) Satan and his angels are who I am speaking of.
Kerwin,I don't disagree with most of your post. I realize that Satan still continued to gather in heaven with the other angels – even after he had caused Adam and Eve to sin. (Job 1 and 2)
And I know that throughout the rebellion of Satan and his angels, they were still allowed access to God in heaven until the day they were (will be?) permanently banned from heaven and thrown down to earth. (Rev 12:10-13)
But if you read about the battle of Ai in Joshua 8, you'll see that even Jehovah counseled Joshua to use means of deception to conquer Ai. God is the one who told Joshua to use a tricky ambush technique to conquer them, right?
So don't confuse “God won't tempt with evil” with “God and His angels can't use deception for righteous gain”. And don't think deception is limited to flesh beings.
Anyway, that being said, here's where we are:
1. You agree that the “hosts” of Satan are the “angels” of Satan.
2. And you believe the particular SPIRIT that put false prophesies in the mouth of King Ahab's prophets was one of these “hosts/angels” of Satan.
That means the only logical conclusion is that “angels” are “SPIRITS”. Because if it was a SPIRIT who approached God with the idea, and that SPIRIT was one of Satan's ANGELS – what other option is there?
Mike,
Quote But if you read about the battle of Ai in Joshua 8, you'll see that even Jehovah counseled Joshua to use means of deception to conquer Ai. God is the one who told Joshua to use a tricky ambush technique to conquer them, right? If it was only deception I would agree but a lying prophecy is a false prophecy and it is a desire of the flesh to prophesize falsely. God did use the actions of the demon to proof the hearts of the kings even though he knew they would choose disobedience beforehand and therefore pay the cost of sin.
Quote That means the only logical conclusion is that “angels” are “SPIRITS”. Because if it was a SPIRIT who approached God with the idea, and that SPIRIT was one of Satan's ANGELS – what other option is there? 1) I believe there are different types of angels.
2) The demon seems to be the kind of spirit that cannot be touched nor does it eat.
3) The angels that came to Lots house did both.
4) This is but one event recorded in two different passages and I would like at least another witness.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2013,11:29) If it was only deception I would agree but a lying prophecy is a false prophecy and it is a desire of the flesh to prophesize falsely.
1 Samuel 16:14
Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2013,11:29) 1) I believe there are different types of angels.
Ah. So now you're willing to accept that SOME angels are spirit beings, and change your claim to, “ONLY SOME OF THEM consist of flesh”? You are at least moving in the right direction.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2013,11:29) 2) The demon seems to be the kind of spirit that cannot be touched nor does it eat.
3) The angels that came to Lots house did both.
I reject these two as unworthy of a response, since there is no scripture that says spirit beings can't touch, be touched, or eat.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2013,11:29) 4) This is but one event recorded in two different passages and I would like at least another witness.
How about this one?Job 4
15 A spirit glided past my face,
and the hair on my body stood on end.
16 It stopped,
but I could not tell what it was.
A form stood before my eyes,
and I heard a hushed voice:
17 ‘Can a mortal be more righteous than God?
Can even a strong man be more pure than his Maker?
18 If God places no trust in his servants,
if he charges his angels with error,
19 how much more those who live in houses of clay,
whose foundations are in the dust,
who are crushed more readily than a moth!’Is the “spirit” who glided past Eliphaz's face one of the “angels” he mentions later in his teaching?
And what about the CONTRAST between “angels”, and “those who live in houses of clay”? Obviously, the contrast is one of SPIRIT BEING versus FLESH BEING, right?
But I will also keep looking for others.
Here's another, Kerwin:
Isaiah 31:3
But the Egyptians are mere mortals and not God; their horses are flesh and not spirit.Another CONTRAST between mortal things who are made of FLESH, and spiritual things which are made of SPIRIT.
Compare with Zechariah 6, and 2 Kings 6, where the chariots and horses of the heavenly realms consist of SPIRIT and or FIRE………… as opposed to FLESH.
Mike,
Quote I reject these two as unworthy of a response, since there is no scripture that says spirit beings can't touch, be touched, or eat. You have claimed that before but you also have not answered my point I raised about Jesus given evidence he was not a spirit in Luke.
Kerwin,
You agree that demons are Satan's “angels”. And we all know that demons are “evil SPIRITS”.
And you know that Paul says all angels are “ministering SPIRITS”.
And there are many scriptures besides the ones I just quoted that CONTRAST flesh things against spirit things.
Will you continue to believe the Satan and his angels are truly spirit beings, but God's holy angels are comprised of your own invention: “spirit flesh”?
Will you continue to preach this web of confusion to others?
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2013,12:59) Mike, Quote I reject these two as unworthy of a response, since there is no scripture that says spirit beings can't touch, be touched, or eat. You have claimed that before but you also have not answered my point I raised about Jesus given evidence he was not a spirit in Luke.
WHAT POINT, KERWIN? ! ?
I have addressed your NON-POINT a dozen times already. Look at the words:
“A spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
END OF QUOTE. So what can we learn from these words? That a spirit does not have flesh and bones? YES.
That a spirit cannot be touched? NO.
That a spirit cannot eat human food? NO.
These last two you've made up in your own mind, but Jesus never even hinted at such things.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,00:56) Mike, Thanks for those two passages.
Mike,I think the word is ruach in both cases and can be used to mean a:
Quote e. disembodied being (dubious, Di Du breath of wind): וְרוּחַ עַלמָּֿנַי יַחֲלֹף Job 4:15. which clearly seems to be the case in Job 4:15.
You on the other hand claim angels have bodies.
Isaiah is more tricky as it has little context to narrow down the meaning. Wind would fit as horses are said to run like the wind. Spirit of God would fit as ruach is used to mean that and there is mere flesh vs Spiritual flesh. Disembodied being would work as well.
The closest I found to what you believe is:
Quote f. = ancient angel of the presence and later Shekina: קָדְשׁוֺ ׳ר Isaiah 63:10,11 = ׳י ׳ר Isaiah 63:14 (= מַלְאַךְ מָּנָיו Isaiah 63:9), compare Psalm 106:33; so also קָדְשְׁךָ ׳ר Psalm 51:13 (in national prayer), compare Nehemiah 9:20; Psalm 143:10; prophets of restoration conceive of the divine spirit as standing in their midst and about to fulfil all divine promises: רוּחִי עֹמֶדֶת בְּתוֺכֲכֶם Haggai 2:5; Zechariah 4:6; this conception culminates in רוּחַ = divine Presence, and as such omnipresent, Psalm 139:7 (“” מָּנֶיךָ; compare Psalm 139:8). I have yet to look into it. Perhaps you can find something more clear.
Note: ruach
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,01:06) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2013,12:59) Mike, Quote I reject these two as unworthy of a response, since there is no scripture that says spirit beings can't touch, be touched, or eat. You have claimed that before but you also have not answered my point I raised about Jesus given evidence he was not a spirit in Luke.
WHAT POINT, KERWIN? ! ?I have addressed your NON-POINT a dozen times already. Look at the words:
“A spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
END OF QUOTE. So what can we learn from these words? That a spirit does not have flesh and bones? YES.
That a spirit cannot be touched? NO.
That a spirit cannot eat human food? NO.
These last two you've made up in your own mind, but Jesus never even hinted at such things.
Mike,Quote the whole passage.
Better yet, why don't YOU quote me the part where Jesus says, “Spirits cannot be touched, nor can they eat”.
When you do that, it will again be worth my time to discuss. Until then, I will continue to reject your made-up theory out of hand.
As for the other topic, am I to assume that you believe Satan's angels are spirit beings, but God's angels consist of flesh?
Is that where we're leaving it?
Good one Mike.
“A spirit does ***not have flesh and bones***, as you see I have.”
Jesus own words they try to spin into a cobweb.
wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,21:34) Better yet, why don't YOU quote me the part where Jesus says, “Spirits cannot be touched, nor can they eat”. When you do that, it will again be worth my time to discuss. Until then, I will continue to reject your made-up theory out of hand.
As for the other topic, am I to assume that you believe Satan's angels are spirit beings, but God's angels consist of flesh?
Is that where we're leaving it?
Mike,We are addressing this in another thread.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 26 2013,08:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,21:34) Better yet, why don't YOU quote me the part where Jesus says, “Spirits cannot be touched, nor can they eat”. When you do that, it will again be worth my time to discuss. Until then, I will continue to reject your made-up theory out of hand.
As for the other topic, am I to assume that you believe Satan's angels are spirit beings, but God's angels consist of flesh?
Is that where we're leaving it?
Mike,We are addressing this in another thread.
Kerwin.I live in ausralia,where do you live?
We need to analyse these scriptures.
2 Chronicles 18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne,
***and all the host of heaven standing***
on his right hand, and on his left
TAKE NOTE: ***ALL THE HOST OF HEAVEN***
THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY ALL THE ANGELS.2 Chronicles 18:19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.(THE ANGELS WERE DISCUSSING WHO SHALL GO).
2 Chronicles 18:20 **Then there came out a spirit**,
***and *stood* before the LORD***,
and said, *I will* entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
THIS LYING SPIRIT WOULD BE ONE OF SATAN'S ANGELS.
FOR THEY WERE NOT CAST DOWN TO EARTH YET.
SINCE SATAN IS THE FATHER OF LIES.2 Chronicles 18:21 **And he said**,
**I will go out**, **and be a lying spirit**
in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.**I WILL GO OUT AND BE A LYING SPIRIT**
ONE OF THE ANGELS WILL BE THE LYING SPIRIT.wakeup.
Wakeup,
Quote We need to analyse these scriptures. Why should I waste my time as you do not even bother to enlarge your English vocabulary. Limiting your ability to understand your own language is now what Jesus meant when he instructed us to be like children. Show me that you are as humble as a child that wants to learn.
You do not even know a lying spirit is and from what I have seen you don't want to learn what it is. I am busy to waste my time on such futile activity.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2013,19:01) Wakeup, Quote We need to analyse these scriptures. Why should I waste my time as you do not even bother to enlarge your English vocabulary. Limiting your ability to understand your own language is now what Jesus meant when he instructed us to be like children. Show me that you are as humble as a child that wants to learn.
You do not even know a lying spirit is and from what I have seen you don't want to learn what it is. I am busy to waste my time on such futile activity.
KerwinWakeup would of used a dictionary in his lifetime many times, as we all have,
I understand his speech and know what he means.
Look at the words in your bible that form the verse.
He means that you don't need another book or 10 to interpret the words of the bible as scholars do to get the original meaning for this and that etc,
for the verses are straight forward, and if we concentrate on this, what the word is saying, and understand, then the holy spirit has intervened.It's supposed to be simple, for the humble. Straight forward, and reliable.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2013,19:01) Wakeup, Quote We need to analyse these scriptures. Why should I waste my time as you do not even bother to enlarge your English vocabulary. Limiting your ability to understand your own language is now what Jesus meant when he instructed us to be like children. Show me that you are as humble as a child that wants to learn.
You do not even know a lying spirit is and from what I have seen you don't want to learn what it is. I am busy to waste my time on such futile activity.
Ok Kerwin you are a scribe and I am just
a simple jo bloke of the street .
You only discus scriptures with the learned pharisees.wakeup.
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