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Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2013,14:19) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 09 2013,08:20) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2013,13:09) Wakeup, Quote ANGELS/CHERUBIMS/SERAPHIMS AND BEASTS WITH ONE HEAD AND 6 WINGS/BEASTS WITH 4 FACES AND 4 WINGS.
ARE ALL OF SPIRIT.I include all of those that are intelligent and who were created in the realms as angels. Some of those you name may only be symbols as they were only seen in prophetic visions.
Quote Quote Matthew 27:52-53
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
THAT WAS NOT A *RESURRECTION*.
FOR JESUS WAS THE FIRST RESURRECTED.
THAT WAS THE *BRINGING BACK TO LIFE*.
THEY WENT TO THE CITY,NOT TO HEAVEN.
IN THAT CASE,A WOMAN WOULD COME BACK AS A WOMAN.Even if the word firstborn means what you think it does in the clause firstborn from the dead. these saints were resurrected after Jesus was though the graves were broken open when he died. The comma and the and separate the two events and each has the time it occurred in its fragment.
These saints are not mentioned hereafter.
Quote Quote Revelation 11:11
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.The breath returned to what?
That what has feet.THAT WAS NOT *A RESURRECTION*,BUT A BRINGING BACK TO LIFE. THE SPIRIT OF LIFE WENT **BACK** INTO THEM.
IN THE *RESURRECTION* THE DEAD AND THE LIVING WILL
BE CHANGED INTO A QUICKENING SPIRIT.LAZARUS WAS *NOT RESURRECTED*,BUT REVIVED.
BROUGHT BACK TO LIFE.(BY JESUS).
HE DIED AGAIN. SO WILL ALL BROUGHT BACK TO LIFE, DIE AGAIN.(SECOND DEATH).No, as Revelations 11:12 gives more information.
Revelation 11:12
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Your words tell me that you are unwilling to take these passages for what they say and so add to them in order to justify your chosen belief that “IN THE *RESURRECTION* THE DEAD AND THE LIVING WILL BE CHANGED INTO A QUICKENING SPIRIT”. Do you even know what quickening means? I ask because you speak of the spirit that gives life to these two witnesses and then turn around and speak of people turning into a spirit that gives life. The later use does not even make sense given what quickening spirit means.
Revelation 5:14 ***And the four beasts said***,
Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of ***the four beasts saying***,
Come and see.wakeup.
Wakeup,Please explain your reasoning.
Kerwin.First of all; the two witnesses were taken up earlier.
Moses body was taken up;and Elijah was taken up.
They were simply taken up again.The four beasts spoke;meaning they are not just
symbolic.wakeup.
Wakeup,
Quote First of all; the two witnesses were taken up earlier. I assume you are speaking of earlier than when the four beasts are said to have spoken. You are are speaking of the two witnesses you say were resurrected in their mortal bodies and then were called to ascend to heaven in a cloud. A interpretation I believe adds words to the book of Revelations.
Quote Moses body was taken up;and Elijah was taken up.
They were simply taken up again.You are claiming the two witnesses are Elijah and Moses. I have no idea where you come by that belief as it is not written in Revelations; nor in any other part of Scripture that I know of.
Quote The four beasts spoke;meaning they are not just
symbolic.That explains your reasoning for the two passages you quote though I do not entirely agree with it. It is my understanding that the description of a individual can by symbolic even in those cases they are an actual individual.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2013,21:17) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Do you believe the “hosts of heaven” in that verse were angels?
I don't know for sure but I do believe they were creatures of heaven.
So then, “creatures of heaven” are spirits, right?Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2013,00:06) Wakeup, Quote First of all; the two witnesses were taken up earlier. I assume you are speaking of earlier than when the four beasts are said to have spoken. You are are speaking of the two witnesses you say were resurrected in their mortal bodies and then were called to ascend to heaven in a cloud. A interpretation I believe adds words to the book of Revelations.
Quote Moses body was taken up;and Elijah was taken up.
They were simply taken up again.You are claiming the two witnesses are Elijah and Moses. I have no idea where you come by that belief as it is not written in Revelations; nor in any other part of Scripture that I know of.
Quote The four beasts spoke;meaning they are not just
symbolic.That explains your reasoning for the two passages you quote though I do not entirely agree with it. It is my understanding that the description of a individual can by symbolic even in those cases they are an actual individual.
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder;
****and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven****.Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about ***the body of Moses***,
durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.The two witnesses:
Revelation 11:6 These have power to
***shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy***:(ELIJAH DID THIS IN THE DAYS OF HIS PROPHECY).and have ***power over waters to turn them to blood*** and to smite the earth **with all plagues**, as often as they will. MOSES DID THIS IN HIS DAYS.(PROPHECY).
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2013,06:12) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2013,21:17) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Do you believe the “hosts of heaven” in that verse were angels?
I don't know for sure but I do believe they were creatures of heaven.
So then, “creatures of heaven” are spirits, right?
Mike,I believe is also called the Spiritual real and therefore its residents can be called spirits just like people that are Mexican citizens are called Mexicans.
It is also the best case that demons are spirits that cannot be touched and do not eat.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 10 2013,07:55) 2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder;
****and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven****.Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about ***the body of Moses***,
durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.The two witnesses:
Revelation 11:6 These have power to
***shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy***:(ELIJAH DID THIS IN THE DAYS OF HIS PROPHECY).and have ***power over waters to turn them to blood*** and to smite the earth **with all plagues**, as often as they will. MOSES DID THIS IN HIS DAYS.(PROPHECY).
Wakeup,The two were alive and talking with Jesus after he was transfigured on a mountain. Nevertheless I still do not see where you are coming from as God can give any man he chooses the power to shut up the sky or to smite all the earth with plagues and to turn water to blood. I assume you have more that the similarities in the powers they were given to support your conclusion.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2013,07:27) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 10 2013,07:55) 2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder;
****and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven****.Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about ***the body of Moses***,
durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.The two witnesses:
Revelation 11:6 These have power to
***shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy***:(ELIJAH DID THIS IN THE DAYS OF HIS PROPHECY).and have ***power over waters to turn them to blood*** and to smite the earth **with all plagues**, as often as they will. MOSES DID THIS IN HIS DAYS.(PROPHECY).
Wakeup,The two were alive and talking with Jesus after he was transfigured on a mountain. Nevertheless I still do not see where you are coming from as God can give any man he chooses the power to shut up the sky or to smite all the earth with plagues and to turn water to blood. I assume you have more that the similarities in the powers they were given to support your conclusion.
Kerwin.You need to know how to decern the scriptures.
Ilijah Did stop the rain **in his days of prophecy**.
Moses did turned water into blood,and plagues
in **his days of his prophecy**.This is not speaking of any man,
and this is not about the transfiguration.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 11 2013,03:25) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2013,07:27) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 10 2013,07:55) 2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder;
****and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven****.Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about ***the body of Moses***,
durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.The two witnesses:
Revelation 11:6 These have power to
***shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy***:(ELIJAH DID THIS IN THE DAYS OF HIS PROPHECY).and have ***power over waters to turn them to blood*** and to smite the earth **with all plagues**, as often as they will. MOSES DID THIS IN HIS DAYS.(PROPHECY).
Wakeup,The two were alive and talking with Jesus after he was transfigured on a mountain. Nevertheless I still do not see where you are coming from as God can give any man he chooses the power to shut up the sky or to smite all the earth with plagues and to turn water to blood. I assume you have more that the similarities in the powers they were given to support your conclusion.
Kerwin.You need to know how to decern the scriptures.
Ilijah Did stop the rain **in his days of prophecy**.
Moses did turned water into blood,and plagues
in **his days of his prophecy**.This is not speaking of any man,
and this is not about the transfiguration.wakeup.
Wakeup,I know Eliah and Mosses did what you say but I cannot see how that implies they are the two witnesses that have the power to do those things at a later date.
Jesus and Elijah both were given the power to raise the dead but that does not mean Jesus is Elijah.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2013,09:28) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 11 2013,03:25) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2013,07:27) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 10 2013,07:55) 2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder;
****and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven****.Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about ***the body of Moses***,
durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.The two witnesses:
Revelation 11:6 These have power to
***shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy***:(ELIJAH DID THIS IN THE DAYS OF HIS PROPHECY).and have ***power over waters to turn them to blood*** and to smite the earth **with all plagues**, as often as they will. MOSES DID THIS IN HIS DAYS.(PROPHECY).
Wakeup,The two were alive and talking with Jesus after he was transfigured on a mountain. Nevertheless I still do not see where you are coming from as God can give any man he chooses the power to shut up the sky or to smite all the earth with plagues and to turn water to blood. I assume you have more that the similarities in the powers they were given to support your conclusion.
Kerwin.You need to know how to decern the scriptures.
Ilijah Did stop the rain **in his days of prophecy**.
Moses did turned water into blood,and plagues
in **his days of his prophecy**.This is not speaking of any man,
and this is not about the transfiguration.wakeup.
Wakeup,I know Eliah and Mosses did what you say but I cannot see how that implies they are the two witnesses that have the power to do those things at a later date.
Jesus and Elijah both were given the power to raise the dead but that does not mean Jesus is Elijah.
Kerwin.The taking up of Elijah, and the dead body of Moses is for
a purpose. They are being preserved for the last days.
To come down to witness to israel.I never said that Jesus is Elijah.
Elijah is a prophet;and Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.
Jesus is Elijah's and Moses Lord.
wakeup.Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 11 2013,05:49) Kerwin. The taking up of Elijah, and the dead body of Moses is for
a purpose. They are being preserved for the last days.
To come down to witness to israel.I never said that Jesus is Elijah.
Elijah is a prophet;and Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.
Jesus is Elijah's and Moses Lord.
wakeup.
Wakeup,I did not say you said Jesus is Elijah but I did point out that you argument that the two witnesses are Elijah and Mosses because of the similarity of their miraculous powers is just as flawed as to claim Jesus is Elijah based on the fact both miraculously raised the dead to life.
I have see nothing in Scripture to support the idea “They are being preserved for the last days. To come down to witness to Israel”.
Both Elijah and Mosses meant Jesus on the mountain when he transfigured.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2013,12:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2013,06:12) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2013,21:17) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Do you believe the “hosts of heaven” in that verse were angels?
I don't know for sure but I do believe they were creatures of heaven.
So then, “creatures of heaven” are spirits, right?
Mike,I believe is also called the Spiritual real and therefore its residents can be called spirits just like people that are Mexican citizens are called Mexicans.
It is also the best case that demons are spirits that cannot be touched and do not eat.
Not quite sure what you're saying there, Kerwin.My point is that you are saying angels AREN'T spirit beings, and the passage we've been talking about seems to say they ARE spirit beings.
Do you agree with me about that?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,08:05) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2013,12:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2013,06:12) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2013,21:17) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Do you believe the “hosts of heaven” in that verse were angels?
I don't know for sure but I do believe they were creatures of heaven.
So then, “creatures of heaven” are spirits, right?
Mike,I believe is also called the Spiritual real and therefore its residents can be called spirits just like people that are Mexican citizens are called Mexicans.
It is also the best case that demons are spirits that cannot be touched and do not eat.
Not quite sure what you're saying there, Kerwin.My point is that you are saying angels AREN'T spirit beings, and the passage we've been talking about seems to say they ARE spirit beings.
Do you agree with me about that?
Mike,This is what Scripture states:
1 Kings 22:19-23
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him. 22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
It states all the host of heave was gathered but it does not name any but one a spirit and that one is clearly a demon.
2 Chronicles 18:18-22
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the Lord; I saw the Lord sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. 19 And the Lord said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. 20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will entice him. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? 21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. 22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee.
This paraphrase does not seem to add anything to the account of Micaiah's vision.
It is prophecy and therefore possibly filled with symbolism. The Canaanite people and perhaps also the Hebrews believed that demons were spirit beings that could not eat or be touched. At least some believed that some some demons were ghosts, a belief that seemed to have made it into what we today call the first book of Enoch.
1. Where are you seeing “demon” in that passage?
2. Isn't it logical that “the hosts of heaven” in that passage are God's angels?
3. Isn't it also logical that the “spirit” that came forth with the idea was one of those “hosts of heaven” that were discussing this matter with God?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,22:02) 1. Where are you seeing “demon” in that passage? 2. Isn't it logical that “the hosts of heaven” in that passage are God's angels?
3. Isn't it also logical that the “spirit” that came forth with the idea was one of those “hosts of heaven” that were discussing this matter with God?
Mike,1) No angel of God will become a lying spirit as they are like God in that they do not tempt with evil, James 1:13. Jesus states woe to those sin comes by, Luke 17:2.
James 1:13
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Luke 17:1-2
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)17 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! 2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
The spirit could be a fallen angel but I am used to calling them demons.
2) I would have assumed they were but the evidence seems to be that Satan and his host are considered in the host of heaven mentioned by Micaiah. This is consistent to the idea that Satan was among the sons of God who came before God in Job.
3) The contexts seems to show that this demon was a member of the host of heaven Micaiah was talking about.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,08:05) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2013,12:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2013,06:12) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2013,21:17) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Do you believe the “hosts of heaven” in that verse were angels?
I don't know for sure but I do believe they were creatures of heaven.
So then, “creatures of heaven” are spirits, right?
Mike,I believe is also called the Spiritual real and therefore its residents can be called spirits just like people that are Mexican citizens are called Mexicans.
It is also the best case that demons are spirits that cannot be touched and do not eat.
Not quite sure what you're saying there, Kerwin.My point is that you are saying angels AREN'T spirit beings, and the passage we've been talking about seems to say they ARE spirit beings.
Do you agree with me about that?
Mike,Sorry for the grammar errors.
Mexicans are called Mexicans because they come from Mexico,
Angels can be called spirits because they come from the Spiritual realm.Thus spirit can be a testimony of where angels are citizens due to being created there.
The man possessed by a legion of evil spirits.
They are not fallen angels.
They are evil spirits. The spirits of the hybrids
created by the fallen angels during the flood.
They were man with the spirit of the fallen angels.The fallen angels see them as inferior to them.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 15 2013,05:40) The man possessed by a legion of evil spirits.
They are not fallen angels.
They are evil spirits. The spirits of the hybrids
created by the fallen angels during the flood.
They were man with the spirit of the fallen angels.The fallen angels see them as inferior to them.
wakeup.
Wakeup,What part of the book of what is now called 1st Enoch do you get that from?
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 15 2013,10:44) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 15 2013,05:40) The man possessed by a legion of evil spirits.
They are not fallen angels.
They are evil spirits. The spirits of the hybrids
created by the fallen angels during the flood.
They were man with the spirit of the fallen angels.The fallen angels see them as inferior to them.
wakeup.
Wakeup,What part of the book of what is now called 1st Enoch do you get that from?
Kerwin.I have the complete book of enoch copies
given to me.
http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH1.HTM
One HTM to five.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 15 2013,06:05) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 15 2013,10:44) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 15 2013,05:40) The man possessed by a legion of evil spirits.
They are not fallen angels.
They are evil spirits. The spirits of the hybrids
created by the fallen angels during the flood.
They were man with the spirit of the fallen angels.The fallen angels see them as inferior to them.
wakeup.
Wakeup,What part of the book of what is now called 1st Enoch do you get that from?
Kerwin.I have the complete book of enoch copies
given to me.
http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH1.HTM
One HTM to five.wakeup.
Wakeup,Quote But now the giants who are born from the [union of] the spirits and the flesh shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, because their dwelling shall be upon the earth and inside the earth. Evil spirits have come out of their bodies. Because from the day that they were created from the sons of God they became Watchers: their first origin is the spiritual foundation. They will become evil upon the earth and shall be called evil spirits. The dwelling of the spiritual beings of heaven is heaven; but the dwelling of the spirits of the earth, which are born upon the earth, is in the earth. (1 Enoch 15:8-10) Note: This opinion by Tom Brown is my source for the quote from 1 Enoch but his teachings are as one who lacks knowledge.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 15 2013,14:56) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 15 2013,06:05) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 15 2013,10:44) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 15 2013,05:40) The man possessed by a legion of evil spirits.
They are not fallen angels.
They are evil spirits. The spirits of the hybrids
created by the fallen angels during the flood.
They were man with the spirit of the fallen angels.The fallen angels see them as inferior to them.
wakeup.
Wakeup,What part of the book of what is now called 1st Enoch do you get that from?
Kerwin.I have the complete book of enoch copies
given to me.
http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH1.HTM
One HTM to five.wakeup.
Wakeup,Quote But now the giants who are born from the [union of] the spirits and the flesh shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, because their dwelling shall be upon the earth and inside the earth. Evil spirits have come out of their bodies. Because from the day that they were created from the sons of God they became Watchers: their first origin is the spiritual foundation. They will become evil upon the earth and shall be called evil spirits. The dwelling of the spiritual beings of heaven is heaven; but the dwelling of the spirits of the earth, which are born upon the earth, is in the earth. (1 Enoch 15:8-10) Note: This opinion by Tom Brown is my source for the quote from 1 Enoch but his teachings are as one who lacks knowledge.
Thanks Kerwin.I just read that; and he seems to be ok so far.
wakeup.
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