The arian dissenters

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 23 2010,04:36)

thinker…….I doubt if anyone here is more confused as you, on this Subject. Your squirrelly images only are refelcting how your own mind works, because you can't prove Jodi or any other NON TRINITARIANS intelligently wrong, so you revert to stupid images that are produced by the real spirit within you. IMO

Gene,

You did NOT reply to the scriptures I gave. Here they are again:

The apostle John said that Jesus HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins:

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

This is clear! Jesus is no Savior by proxy. He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins.

Hebrews says that Jesus is the SOURCE of eternal salvation:

And being made perfect, he became the SOURCE of eternal salvation to all who obey him, Hebrews 5:9, ESV

1. He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins
2. He is the SOURCE of eternal salvation

It appears as if God was a bit confused when He said, “Besides Me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11).

Are you going to answer them or not?

thinker

January 22, 2010 at 6:06 pm#172538

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 22 2010,12:48)

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 23 2010,04:33)

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 23 2010,04:25)

WJ………Brother you are so wrong, Jodi has explained it perfectly right. You and thnker are both committing IDOLATRY by trying to make Jesus into Very GOD. What Jesus does and did is and will always be to the GLORY of THE FATHER, Who is the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD.
WJ if you harden your heart to these truths it will have a dire consequence to you brother please repent and worship GOD The FATHER as The ONLY TRUE GOD, and NO other, not even Jesus is His equal.

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

Gene,

The apostle John said that Jesus HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins:

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

This is clear! Jesus is no Savior by proxy. He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins.

Hebrews says that Jesus is the SOURCE of eternal salvation:

And being made perfect, he became the SOURCE of eternal salvation to all who obey him, Hebrews 5:9, ESV

1. He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins
2. He is the SOURCE of eternal salvation

It appears as if God was a bit confused when He said, “Besides Me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11).

What's your beef Gene?

thinker

Thinker………You say Jesus is not our Savior by Proxy is sear non sense. He most certainly is our savior by Proxy. GOD used him for the very purpose, It was GOD (IN) Christ Jesus that was reconciling the world unto (HIMSELF). It was (NOT) Jesus (IN) Jesus that was reconciling the world to Jesus. God used the MAN Jesus to RECONCILE The world to HIMSELF (GOD).

Jesus is the propitiation for our sins because GOD THE FATHER HAS (EXCEPTED) HIS SACRIFICE as FULL PAYMENT FOR EVER, FOR the SINS of THE WORLD. SO the Sacrifice is a Propitiating ONE. He is what GOD the FATHER used as the PAYMENT> for sin. Taht does not make Jesus the GOD who accepted that payment as you deluded Trinitarians preach and teach. IMO

Gene

You are looking at only one side of the coin!

January 22, 2010 at 6:13 pm#172541

Participant

Gene said:

Quote

In other words, Jesus is NOT a proxy Savior.

Now what about the statement in Hebrews 5:9?

And being made perfect, he became the SOURCE of eternal salvation to all who obey him, Hebrews 5:9, ESV

Jesus is the SOURCE of eternal salvation.

thinker

January 22, 2010 at 6:16 pm#172543

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 23 2010,04:36)

Gene,

And when you can't give an intelligent reply you resort to accusation and condemnation just like those who rejected Jesus. You show how YOUR mind works.

thinker

January 22, 2010 at 6:19 pm#172545

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2010,04:45)

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 22 2010,12:25)

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

Gene

Why do you accuse me of a hard heart and idolatry?

Jesus said judge not that you be not judged!

WJ…….I absolutely do not believe you have a hard Heart, quit the contrary, I was simply saying you are hardening your heart against the truth concerning the TRINITY, and that is all that was implied there, and nothing more. And as far as the TRINITY GOES IT is a IDOLATRESS TEACHING. WJ……there is nothing personal meant there as concerning you personally.

Peace and love ………………gene

January 22, 2010 at 6:23 pm#172547

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 23 2010,05:19)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2010,04:45)

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 22 2010,12:25)

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

Gene

Why do you accuse me of a hard heart and idolatry?

Jesus said judge not that you be not judged!

Peace and love ………………gene

Gene,

It is YOUR teaching that is idolatrous because you “worship” God the old covenant way. God has commanded that we worship Him through His Son in the new covenant. According to Jesus this means that the Son is to be honored EVEN AS the Father is honored. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father.

thinker

January 22, 2010 at 6:37 pm#172550

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2010,03:42)

Hi Jodi

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Jan. 22 2010,10:57)

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.

WJ, is there ANYONE else who can save Israel and do so through sending a man?

I just believe the scripture you quote just as it is written!

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord, And “***BESIDES ME*** there is NO savior“.

Jesus is not “a Savour” by proxy, Jesus is “The Savour”!

BESIDES YHWH there is NO savior, in WHAT context does that mean?

In your understanding WJ, it apparently means we should disregard ALL substance of scripture and look at this one verse with a complete narrow mind.

The chapter is specifically talking about God being the savior of Israel, and it's He alone through His Will and His Power that He will save His people, and He has chosen to do so through a human being NAMED Jesus.

Could another God bring forth salvation through a man? There exists NO savior, NO other God that can carry out a plan to give eternal life. This is what is meant by there being No other Savior.

Can you not recall WJ that Israel went after false gods, praying to those gods to SAVE THEM from their inflictions? YHWH declares that He alone is God, the gods and the demons are of the imaginations of men and God tells us specifically that they have NO power, to do good or evil. YHWH ALONE brings blessing and cursing and YHWH alone through His Will and His plan, can bring forth life.

Jesus is NOT that Savior he is the son of that Savior carrying out that Savior's plans.

Once again Jesus is called savior TO the GLORY of the Father.

Would you like to explain to us what that means to you?

Jesus is savior BECAUSE of the Father, this would clearly NOT make Jesus the person of whom said “besides Me there is no Savior”. The glory is TO the FAther because it was ALL because of the Father's will and plan that Jesus was himself a savior.

The other major problem I see in all this and I have asked this question before and never got an answer, is where did the part of YHWH go when the pre-existing Jesus gave up his power, and became completely dependent on his Father?

What role did the pre-existing God son perform according to his own authority, and if he lost that when he became a man, what then, did the Father just take up the extra slack? Whatever role that Jesus played as YHWH before he was a man must not have been too significant, since the other part of YHWH could get along just fine without him.

January 22, 2010 at 6:48 pm#172551

Participant

Jodi Lee said to WJ:

Quote

BESIDES YHWH there is NO savior, in WHAT context does that mean?

It means the same thing as “Besides me there is no God.” If WJ said “What does that mean” you would accuse him of being evasive.

That's it Jodi. Just confuse the issue. You must confuse the issue because you yourself are confused.

thinker

January 22, 2010 at 6:50 pm#172552

Participant

Jodi Lee said to WJ:

Quote

In your understanding WJ, it apparently means we should disregard ALL substance of scripture and look at this one verse with a complete narrow mind.

Just as you cling to Deuteronomy 6:4 and disregard ALL the substance of scripture.

thinker

January 22, 2010 at 6:55 pm#172553

Participant

Jodi Lee said:

Quote

Jesus is NOT that Savior he is the son of that Savior carrying out that Savior's plans.

ANATHEMA! ANATHEMA! ANATHEMA!

The apostle John said that Jesus HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins:

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

This is clear! Jesus is no Savior by proxy. He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins.

Hebrews says that Jesus is the SOURCE of eternal salvation:

And being made perfect, he became the SOURCE of eternal salvation to all who obey him, Hebrews 5:9, ESV

Jodi Lee disregards “ALL the substance of scripture!”

thinker

January 22, 2010 at 7:08 pm#172556

Participant

Yesterday Jodi Lee said:

Quote

Jesus is our savior ONLY because he followed in the Will and the plan of the Father.

But today she says:

Quote

Jesus is NOT that Savior he is the son of that Savior carrying out that Savior's plans.

TO ALL:

There you have it. When the anti-trinitarian is pushed he or she always ends up denying that Jesus is our Savior.

Yesterday Jodi confessed that Jesus is our “only” Savior. But today she shows her true ANTI-CHRISTIAN colors! She said, “He is not that Savior.”

Jodi accused WJ for “disregard of ALL the substance of scripture.” But she does the exact same thing. The “substance” of scripture declares that Jesus HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins and that He is the SOURCE of eternal salvation.

The apostle John said that Jesus HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins:

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

This is clear! Jesus is no Savior by proxy. He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins.

Hebrews says that Jesus is the SOURCE of eternal salvation:

And being made perfect, he became the SOURCE of eternal salvation to all who obey him, Hebrews 5:9, ESV

Jodi Lee herself disregards “ALL the substance of scripture!”

thinker

January 22, 2010 at 7:12 pm#172557

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 23 2010,05:13)

Gene said:

Quote

In other words, Jesus is NOT a proxy Savior.

Now what about the statement in Hebrews 5:9?

And being made perfect, he became the SOURCE of eternal salvation to all who obey him, Hebrews 5:9, ESV

Jesus is the SOURCE of eternal salvation.

thinker

How is he that source?

Not by himself, but by being perfected through the Father's work.

Jesus BECAME the source of eternal salvation through the Plan and Will of the Father.

This makes Jesus a savior ONLY through the Father and it makes the Father a Savior as NO OTHER SAVIOR exists!!

Thinker you truly seem to lack ALL scriptural knowledge in HOW exactly it is that Jesus BECAME through the Father our savior.

Acts 2:3oTherefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. 6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned– 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now we must recall Jesus GAVE his life after he had prayed asking if he didn't have to. If Jesus had followed his will and not that of his Father's we would NOT have the salvation that we have.

This is WHY Jesus is our savior ONLY to the GLORY of the Father, making the Father the Savior as NO ONE else is.

January 22, 2010 at 7:30 pm#172561

Participant

Jodi

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Jan. 22 2010,13:37)

Jesus is NOT that Savior he is the son of that Savior carrying out that Savior's plans.

Did I just hear you say that Jesus is not the Savour?

If you are saying that he is not “That” savour meaning there is another then you deny YHWHs own words that says there is no other Savour besides him!

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord, And “***BESIDES ME*** there is NO savior“.

It was Jesus life, body and blood that he gave for you and me. He is our Savour! He is the one that was pierced…

For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, “They shall look on him whom they pierced. John 19:36, 37

John says that Jesus is the one spoken of in Zech…

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit* of grace and supplication. “They will look on me, the one they have pierced“, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. Zech 12:10

More info found here!

January 22, 2010 at 7:51 pm#172562

Participant

Jodi Lee said:

Quote

How is he that source?

Not by himself, but by being perfected through the Father's work.

Jesus BECAME the source of eternal salvation through the Plan and Will of the Father.

Jodi,

Anti-christian babble! It clearly says how Jesus became the “source” of eternal salvation:

Quote

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

He became the “source” in two ways:

1. By His obedience and sufferings, and,

2. By the decree and plan of God.

Yet you deny the first part. What happened to your commitment to regard “ALL the substance of scripture?” You trash your own principle when necessary.

Suppose you were walking across the road with your baby and she got out of your hand and a car was quickly approaching her. Then a man yells out to another man that is with him saying, “Save that child!” The man runs over and picks up the child before the car strikes and flings the baby to the first man that called out. The man who saved the child gets hit by the car.

Later you go to the house of the man who sent the other man in harms way. You thank him saying, “You are the true savior of my child because you sent the other man to save my child.” He replies to you saying, “The man lying in the hospital bed in critical condition saved your child.” You take issue saying, “He is not the true savior. You are the true savior.”

That man is going think that you are an UNJUST person.

Jodi, your beliefs put you in danger of God's wrath. The apostle John said that Jesus HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins. DO YOU KNOW WHAT A “PROPITIATION” IS?

A “propitiation” is an object that receives a strike in place of another object like a lightning rod takes the strike instead of the house. A “propitiation” takes the strike of the oncoming car IN PLACE OF your child!

Jesus HIMSELF is the “propitiation” for our sins. He HIMSELF took the strike of God in your place: “For it pleased the Lord to bruise Him…. We esteemed Him stricken of God” (Is. 53). Jesus is the Savior in His own right. And if He is the Savior in His own right then He is God for God said, “Besides Me there is no Savior.”

MAY GOD HELP YOU OUT OF THE DEEP ABYSS OF DARKNESS!

thinker

January 22, 2010 at 8:09 pm#172563

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 23 2010,06:08)

Yesterday Jodi Lee said:

Quote

Jesus is our savior ONLY because he followed in the Will and the plan of the Father.

But today she says:

Quote

Jesus is NOT that Savior he is the son of that Savior carrying out that Savior's plans.

TO ALL:

There you have it. When the anti-trinitarian is pushed he or she always ends up denying that Jesus is our Savior.

Yesterday Jodi confessed that Jesus is our “only” Savior. But today she shows her true ANTI-CHRISTIAN colors! She said, “He is not that Savior.”

The apostle John said that Jesus HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins:

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

This is clear! Jesus is no Savior by proxy. He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins.

Hebrews says that Jesus is the SOURCE of eternal salvation:

And being made perfect, he became the SOURCE of eternal salvation to all who obey him, Hebrews 5:9, ESV

Jodi Lee herself disregards “ALL the substance of scripture!”

thinker

Thinker you are truly twisting what I have said.

First and foremost it should be apparent that I indeed believe that Jesus was the human being anointed with the Spirit of the Father, and that Jesus went against his OWN will and died on the cross for the sake of following his Father's will. I firmly believe that the anointed human being brought forth the gift of eternal life through the plan and will of the Father.

As well, it should be apparent from my post that when I said that Jesus is “NOT THAT Savior”, I would not be referring to Jesus as not being the man who died on the cross, I would be referring to Jesus as NOT being the person who CREATED the MAN who died on the cross, nor is he the person who CREATED the plan of salvation, nor is he the person who held the Power to carry out that plan. NO Jesus is NOT the Father, of whom is said to be the One True God and the Savior as no one else is. Jesus is not the son of himself!

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

I believe in and follow in the clear distinction MADE between the Father and the Son, and the INDIVIDUAL roles they played in bringing salvation…….

……and one is to the GLORY of the other!!

January 22, 2010 at 8:16 pm#172564

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Jan. 22 2010,15:09)

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 23 2010,06:08)

Yesterday Jodi Lee said:

Quote

Jesus is our savior ONLY because he followed in the Will and the plan of the Father.

But today she says:

Quote

Jesus is NOT that Savior he is the son of that Savior carrying out that Savior's plans.

TO ALL:

There you have it. When the anti-trinitarian is pushed he or she always ends up denying that Jesus is our Savior.

Yesterday Jodi confessed that Jesus is our “only” Savior. But today she shows her true ANTI-CHRISTIAN colors! She said, “He is not that Savior.”

The apostle John said that Jesus HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins:

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

This is clear! Jesus is no Savior by proxy. He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins.

Hebrews says that Jesus is the SOURCE of eternal salvation:

And being made perfect, he became the SOURCE of eternal salvation to all who obey him, Hebrews 5:9, ESV

Jodi Lee herself disregards “ALL the substance of scripture!”

thinker

Thinker you are truly twisting what I have said.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

I believe in and follow in the clear distinction MADE between the Father and the Son, and the INDIVIDUAL roles they played in bringing salvation…….

……and one is to the GLORY of the other!!

HMM!

I didn't hear you confess Jesus is your “Savour”!

January 22, 2010 at 8:23 pm#172565

Participant

Hi WJ,

To the Glory of the Father Jesus is my savior, for I know that he was indeed the man of the Father's foreordained plan where before time began the Father promised us eternal life in a human anointed with His Spirit.

How's that WJ?

January 22, 2010 at 8:36 pm#172568