The Angel of the LORD

Participant

Quote

Only a brave man would teach someting as truth about spiritual matters without basing that teaching on what is clearly written and taught in the bible.

Do you agree?

I do agree. And you believe that “God is not a trinity” is clearly taught in the Bible. Others disagree. You believe that God burns people for all time because of the sins of a few years. Others disagree. Yet, nowhere does the Bible say: “God burns people alive forever in unending pain.” Yet, you have come to that conclusion.
Yes, there's fewer scriptures that deal with this subject. But those scriptures point me to what I see as an obvious conclusion.

September 29, 2006 at 1:53 am#29558

Participant

wrong thread david.

September 29, 2006 at 1:59 am#29563

Participant

I was just answering your statement by using a COMPARISON, hoping it would help you to understand. My mistake. I apologize.

September 29, 2006 at 2:25 am#29567

Participant

Quote (david @ Sep. 29 2006,02:06)

Quote

Only a brave man would teach someting as truth about spiritual matters without basing that teaching on what is clearly written and taught in the bible.

Do you agree?

Hi david,
So you agree that we should not teach what is not taught in the bible?
But where does that leave the JW doctrines such as Jesus is an angel, called Michael. That is not taught is it??

September 29, 2006 at 2:30 am#29569

Participant

Nick, please read my above post again. You ask, 'Where does the Bible say Jesus is an angel?'
I asked you Nick, where the Bible says that God burns people alive forever for the sins of a few years on earth. Where does it say that in the Bible?

YET THAT IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE?

Why?

September 29, 2006 at 2:59 am#29573

Participant

Hi david,
Do you really know what I believe?
Show me from scripture in the correct thread these things that I should believe and I will be corrected.
Then we can look again at why you say from outside of scripture that Jesus is an angel.

September 29, 2006 at 3:09 am#29576

Participant

Again,

Quote

I was just answering your statement by using a COMPARISON, hoping it would help you to understand. My mistake. I apologize.

Nick, what I am saying absolutely belongs here. You state that there is no scripture that says: “Jesus is an angel.”
Yet, you believe things that don't have specific scriptures plainly stating what you believe. If there were such plain scriptures stating exactly what you believe, then there would be no debate, then T8 would agree with you. He doesn't. Such scriptures do not exist. So what you're saying to me seems… hypocritical to some degree.

September 29, 2006 at 3:33 am#29579

Participant

Hi david,
If I anm a hypocrite then I will improve if you address the issue in the correct thread. I will try to teach only what is written.

So then what of Michael and Jesus-will you do the same?.

September 29, 2006 at 6:35 am#29598

Participant

Nick,

I feel that I would be not proclaiming the truth if I did not state my position from what I “truly” see the scriptures saying.

Maybe, I am wrong but what am I do to? Not believe the evidence staring me in the face. Not follow where I think I am being guided?

Can you honestly say that the information I posted a couple pages back does not have alot of evidence to support my position?

September 29, 2006 at 6:40 am#29599

Participant

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 29 2006,01:27)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2006,21:40)

Hi mercy,
Did any of them say that Jesus is the angel of the Lord?
That is the relevant issue here.

I Totally Agree!

Plus to those who believe the Angel of the Lord is Jesus
… If Jesus is 'the Angel of the Lord' then who is the Angel of the Lord???

Do you see my point?

The New testament verses are different. Be honest.

In Matthew it states it is Gabriel. It is “an” angel of the Lord.

Clearly the angel of the Lord as described in the old testament has a very close personal relationship to God. He acts and speaks on behalf of him with authority. Gods name was in him.

Read the history on this. Do a google search on Metatron.

September 29, 2006 at 6:58 am#29602

Participant

Hi mercy,
To each their own.
I prefer simplicity.
2Cor 11
“1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”

September 29, 2006 at 7:01 am#29603

Participant

John 5:45
45″But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

Luke 24:27
27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

What all did moses say about Jesus?

September 29, 2006 at 7:09 am#29604

Participant

Me too

But that verse is out of context, that was concerning salvation.

Paul often talks of the mysteries of Christ.

I think the simpliest and most logical answer to the nature of Christ is:

He was the firstborn unique son of God. (out of all the others)
He is the fullness and radiance of God's image and glory.
He had authority as Prince of Princes.
He was the word of the Lord (OT) and the word of God (NT)
He was the messenger of both covenants.
He revealed the invisible God in both the new and old testaments.
In the New testament he incarnates as our Messiah.
He is now the King of Kings with superior name exalted above his fellows.

that answers all the questions with ease and simplicity and has alot of evidence to support it. In fact so much that I find myself having to apply more faith to consider the possiblity that it isn't so.

September 29, 2006 at 7:16 am#29605

Participant

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(John 1:18 KJV)

At any time?
hath declared him?
When?
At any of those times people thought they saw him or his angel?

September 29, 2006 at 9:45 am#29611

Adam Pastor

Participant

Mercy, you do the research on Metatron.
And show me where in Jewish writings, is Metatron ever identified with the Messiah? Where? Show me!

And to be honest, it is only in Luke that Gabriel is identified, and he never speaks to Joseph!
I did my homework first! :;):

To be honest, the OT speaks of 'the angel of the Lord' and the NT speaks of 'the angel of the Lord'. Why?
Because there is no difference. GOD used His angel(s) to do His bidding in the OT. And in the NT there is no difference. GOD continues to use His angel(s) to speak to Joseph, the shepherds, etc; about His Son, the birth of His Son, the safety of His Son, etc. …
Therefore, it ought to be obvious that His Son is NOT the Angel of the Lord. And that's being honest!
The angel of the Lord in the NT is still speaking on behalf of GOD … nothing has changed!

Concerning (John 5:45-47) Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Well, it appears you may have missed the evidence staring you in the face.
Not only is the evidence clearly there in the OT but at least 2 of Christ's disciples actually expounded the very portion of Moses' writings that Jesus was talking about!!! Let's see …Where did Moses write of Christ?
(Deu 18:15-19) YAHWEH thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of YAHWEH thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of YAHWEH my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And YAHWEH said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Note: GOD will raise up a Prophet from the family of the Israelites … He did NOT say He would raise up an angelic being!
Jesus the Messiah identified himself as 'a prophet' and the people who believed on him identified him as
'That Prophet' according to the writings of Moses!
And more specifically, 2 of Christ's disciples actually expounded on this point, so none of us need to be in any ignorance on that point!

PETER: (Acts 3:20-26) And he [GOD] shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son [servant] Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

STEPHEN: (Acts 7:37) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
(Acts 7:52) Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

So Moses' writing concerning Christ is Deut. 18:15-19

John 1:18 is speaking 'after the fact' of Christ's ministry NOT before!
During Christ's ministry, Jesus declared GOD the Father [e.g. John 14.9-11, 17.6,26, etc].
And like you rightly said, no one had seen GOD at anytime … the OT saints saw angels.
And the people of those times were fully aware of this fact.

Also, ponder the fact that if you have to trust so-called church fathers for proof of your assertion, this cannot be a sound position. Trust what the Scriptures say! And as Nick pointed out to you, all the verses that you indeed quoted, NONE of them, say that the Angel of the Lord was the Messiah! No not one!

The so-called church fathers were Hellenistic-minded believers who 'lost the art' of reading the Scriptures with a Hebraic mindset.
Justin Martyr was the first to call Jesus, 'the Second God'; and also remember he was 'a philosopher turned “Christian” '!! That is, his mind was steeped in Greek Platonism and philosophy.
Remember Col 2.8!
Justin Martyr as well as the church fathers of his era, tried to marry their Greek philosophy with the Hebrew Scriptures with disatrous results. It was these men who introduced the Platonic notion of 'the immortality of the soul' and with this notion introduced the concept that Jesus the Messiah pre-existed as a personal being known as '[God] the Logos' who was alongside GOD before the foundation of the world.
Like I said, this notion of 'literal pre-existence' of the Messiah was based on their Hellenistic, Platonic philosophy.
Justin Martyr one of the earliest proponent of this notion, when trying to convince Trypho the Jew, actually said …

CHAPTER XLVIII [48] — BEFORE THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST IS PROVED, HE [TRYPHO] DEMANDS THAT IT BE SETTLED THAT HE IS CHRIST.

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And Trypho said, “We have heard what you think of these matters. Resume the discourse where you left off, and bring it to an end. For some of it appears to me to be paradoxical, and wholly incapable of proof. For when you say that this Christ existed as God before the ages, then that He submitted to be born and become man, yet that He is not man of man, this [assertion] appears to me to be not merely paradoxical, but also foolish.”
And I replied to this, “I know that the statement does appear to be paradoxical, especially to those of your race, who are ever unwilling to understand or to perform the [requirements] of God, but [ready to perform] those of your teachers, as God Himself declares. Now assuredly, Trypho,” I continued,” [the proof] that this man is the Christ of God does not fail, though I be unable to prove that He existed formerly as Son of the Maker of all things, being God, and was born a man by the Virgin. But since I have certainly proved that this man is the Christ of God, whoever He be, even if I do not prove that He pre-existed, and submitted to be born a man of like passions with us, having a body, according to the Father's will; in this last matter alone is it just to say that I have erred, and not to deny that He is the Christ, though it should appear that He was born man of men, and [nothing more] is proved [than this], that He has become Christ by election. For there are some, my friends,” I said, “of our race, who admit that He is Christ, while holding Him to be man of men; with whom I do not agree, nor would I, even though most of those who have [now] the same opinions as myself should say so; since we were enjoined by Christ Himself to put no faith in human doctrines, but in those proclaimed by the blessed prophets and taught by Himself.”

(Taken from: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text….ho.html )

So, Justin Martyr could not prove that Jesus pre-existed his birth! Like Justin Martyr, I suggest Mercy, that you have erred in this matter. Justin also points out (as history proves) that it was the majority position among Christians of that time, that Jesus the Christ of GOD, was born man of men! Thus he did not pre-exist as someone or something else.
Sadly, this philosophical, Platonic notion of 'a literal pre-existence of a Logos-being' gained ground among the Hellenistic Christians, and we have the situation that we have today!!

So, like I said, Mercy; don't depend upon 'the church fathers' for proof … go back to the Scriptures.
Jesus was speaking of Deut 18:15-19; both disciples & believers alike perceived that Jesus of Nazareth was
'That Prophet' [e.g. John 4.19,29,42-44; 6.14, 7.40, Acts 3.22ff, 7.37, etc]
Neither Jesus nor any of his apostles identified the Messiah as the Angel of the Lord.
And as I said before, if memory serves me well, neither in any of the Jewish apocryphal writings (which are nearer to the source & era then the writings of the church fathers) ever identify the Messiah as the Angel of the Lord or Metatron. (Please correct me if I am mistaken by quoting otherwise)
Be Berean. Search these facts out.
God strengthen you in your search. Amen.

September 29, 2006 at 3:29 pm#29624

Participant

I was aware of the of that prophecy by Moses. I was hinting at the idea of is that all Moses said. That was all Moses said concerning Jesus?

I do not really on what the church fathers taught. I searched the scriptures first and saw the connection and then later realized that it was a view shared by the church Fathers. It is only a secondary confirmation and not a primary source. Scripture is my only primary source.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(John 1:18 KJV)

Jesus is saying that no man has ever seen God.
He then states that he was in the bosom of the Father.
He then clarifies that it was and is him that reveals the Father.

Is this not what it is saying?

I tend to suspect that you don't give any credance to the book of Enoch. In that book Jesus is clearly pre-existing. I believe the book of Enoch is legit. Have you ever read it?

September 29, 2006 at 6:34 pm#29635

Participant

Hi mercy,
You say

“o man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(John 1:18 KJV)

Jesus is saying that no man has ever seen God.
He then states that he was in the bosom of the Father.
He then clarifies that it was and is him that reveals the Father”

The vessel of Jesus revealed the true nature of God within him to mankind.

September 29, 2006 at 6:53 pm#29642

Participant

isnt “hath' past tense?

how did Jesus do this prior to his incarnation in the vessel of a man?

September 29, 2006 at 7:01 pm#29645