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Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 29 2012,03:59) gene Quote gene Quote Mike believe me brother you are completly indoctrinated into a false teachings, how could that be possible Mike ,t8,and me are ONLY rely on scriptures,and so are only indoctrinated by the word of God;
would you insinuate that the BIBLE TEACHES FALSELY
Terricca………The bible doesnt teach falsely, you and Mike and T8 do concerning Jesus preexistence as a sentinel Being before his berth on this earth. You ask how could that be possible ?, Most all the world lies in a state of deception All Trinitarins and Preexistence like you Pierre and Mike and T8 are also. Your problem is you all reject hundress of scriptures that show Jesus was a SON OF MAN over and over and did not preexist his berth on this earth except in the plan and will of God who prophesied him to come into existence at the proper time in History. You people neglect all the hundreds of scripture that prove this. You are in the dark rather you understand that or not. IMOpeace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Mike,
“I was before Abraham became” is the best way in English to express the idea you think is in John 8:58. The situation is the Greek does not support that translation though I have heard of a translation that does it anyways.
The historic present argument is your best choice and “I am” is a better choice than “I have been” because the later lacks a definite future element. It is “I am before Abraham became.” vs “I have been before Abraham became.”
A variation is that “I am” sometimes “I am he” or something like that. I am not certain how or if that would work out in English. For it to work out in Greek then the words “Before Abraham is to become/became” would have to refer to someone and then Jesus would claim to be that someone.
I support the translation-interpretation that Jesus teaches us that “before Abraham is to become”; I am the one” because it is in harmony with the ideas that:
1} Jesus is greater than Abraham
2} Jesus is the Seed by which Abraham has now become the father of many nations of children, who have a faith like his.I don't agree with those non-creditable Jews that he claimed to have existed durring Abraham's mortality. I do agree with them that he appeared to be under 50. Of course Scripture tells us he was about thirty when he started his ministry; but why would you beleave that?
Luke 3:23
King James Version (KJV)23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
He was also twelve at an earlier date.
Luke 2:42
King James Version (KJV)42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
Since Scripture states his being these ages how does your claim he is older harmonize with these passages?
The fact that the Jews took Jesus to mean that he existed before Abraham at least shows that this was linguistically possible. And the confirmation as to this understanding has many witness scriptures.
1) Linguistically correct.
2) Agrees with many other scriptures.Also, when Jesus was asked if he was Jesus just before his crucifixion he said, 'I am'. He wasn't referring to being a memory in the Father then and I don't believe he meant that anytime he said, “I am”.
You falsely assume that the bible gives the age of his existence when it is merely stating that he was a human for that long.
For just for a minute imagine from your own mind that this is true, that Jesus was literally the firstborn of all creation. Then would you think it strange that when he was 12 that he didn't celebrated all the years of the universe + 12 + how long before that? Who would think that was necessary. Yet you seem to think it would be given your comments about Jesus age. This seems strange to me.
- Jesus is now in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.
- “Before Abraham was I am” said Jesus.
- “To the only God our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory and magnificence, empire and power, before all ages…”.
These are all written and are a testimony to the truth. If you don't want to believe it, then you are free to do so.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 29 2012,08:54) The bible doesnt teach falsely, you and Mike and T8 do concerning Jesus preexistence as a sentinel Being before his berth on this earth.
The bible teaches that he existed in the form of God before coming as a man. This is what we believe.Replace the words 'sentinel being' with 'the form of God' and then you accurately portray what we believe.
Revelation 3:14
'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation'The Greek says 'These things says the Amen, the witness, faithful and TRUE, the beginning of the creation of God.
Just my two cents.
2besee……….Jesus was in deed the “beginning” of a Creation of the sons of God from the creation (OF) Man to “inheiret etenal life, the First raised from the dead from all creation to that state. Notice where it also say He is the First (and) the Last, what does the means?. It means that the last into the kingdom of God will be exactly like Him who is the First. We are called Joint heirs with Jesus and that inheritance is eternal life , He is said to be the (FIRST) of many Brothers. He is indeed the “Beginning of GOd's Creation” from all human creation, the First as well as the last will be exactly like him also, For we shall see him (AS) He is. We will be exactly like him. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………..gene
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 29 2012,19:42) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 29 2012,08:54) The bible doesnt teach falsely, you and Mike and T8 do concerning Jesus preexistence as a sentinel Being before his berth on this earth.
The bible teaches that he existed in the form of God before coming as a man. This is what we believe.Replace the words 'sentinel being' with 'the form of God' and then you accurately portray what we believe.
T8……..the bible teaches no such thing, you and the rest of the Preexistences and Trinitarians teach that which represents about 95% of all Christrodom, Tell me T8 why don't you even consider all the many scriptures that show Jesus did not preeexist his berth like Just a few i have listed here alsready.You say not Sentinel Being, but a Form of God is your view . Please tell us what is that Form of GOD you believe in, what does it look like, Jesus said he was Flesh and Blood after he was resurected but you say he is a Form of God.
God is a Spirit Jesus said and Jesus also said he was not a Spirit. If you understood what a Spirt is you would realize siprits have no Form (shape) they are like the wind, they come in Types and Kinds, They are what is (IN) people representing their perticular types and kinds that effects their behaviors.
The word used there for Form should be (NATURE) which would refelect a type or kind of Spirit. Jesus had God the Fathers Nature because the Father who is Spirit was (IN) him as He said over and over. We also can have that Nature (IN) us also exactly as Jesus had. We can even now be Son of God and brothers and sister of Jesus (NOW).
You religion of seperation of Jesus from our exact idenity is a false teaching T8 it works against the work of God and Jesus in all Human kind, You have turned Jesus into an Idol and that transforms the image of him into a a man of sin
I know you don't really understand this T8 but you will in time of that i am sure brother.
peace and love to you and yours T8………………………….gene
T8,
Quote “Before Abraham was I am” said Jesus. The Ancient Greek does not say that since it has no past tense and modern English has no aorist tense. The Preexistantarian translators thus translated their understanding of the ideas to modern English.
I do believe that using the present tense as a historic present does allow for your understanding or something similar. Though it allow it does not demand and therefore the context of the words are important.
I've discussed this with Mike, and like you, have little time to go over it again. The question is how creditable the Jews are and what Jesus meant by his earlier words.
Scripture agrees with the Jews, that Jesus was under 50, and therefore not preexistent.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2012,02:22) T8, Quote “Before Abraham was I am” said Jesus. The Ancient Greek does not say that since it has no past tense and modern English has no aorist tense. The Preexistantarian translators thus translated their understanding of the ideas to modern English.
I do believe that using the present tense as a historic present does allow for your understanding or something similar. Though it allow it does not demand and therefore the context of the words are important.
I've discussed this with Mike, and like you, have little time to go over it again. The question is how creditable the Jews are and what Jesus meant by his earlier words.
Scripture agrees with the Jews, that Jesus was under 50, and therefore not preexistent.
kQuote Scripture agrees with the Jews, that Jesus was under 50, and therefore not preexistent. please i will now correct your sentence above ;
Scripture agrees with the Jews, that Jesus was under 50, and therefore I CONCLUDE THAT HE WAS not preexistent.
BUT I CANNOT EXPLAIN WHY HE SAYS HE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND HOW HE WAS BORN JUST BY A WOMEN ,I HAVE TO LEAVE SOME UNDERSTANDING AS MYSTERY ,BUT I KNOW I AM RIGHT FROM SCRIPTURES AS LONG AS I KEEP IT IN THE MYSTERY LANE ,
ALL THE ABOVE IS WHAT YOU ARE REALY SAYING AND BELIEVE ,SO SCRIPTURES ARE UNDER THE DIRECTION OF MEN IN YOUR EYES.
T,
Jesus was twelve years old when he was accidentally left behind at the Temple. He was about thirty years old when his ministry started. These two facts are clear from Scripture.
He was sent from our Father, who is in heaven, and therefore came down from heaven. His Spirit comes from above for it is Jehovah's Spirit; therefore he is from above. These two facts are also clear from Scripture.
He was conceived in a woman and therefore not outside of her.
Ignorant and corrupt men miss-translate Scripture to their own damnation.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2012,05:37) T, Jesus was twelve years old when he was accidentally left behind at the Temple. He was about thirty years old when his ministry started. These two facts are clear from Scripture.
He was sent from our Father, who is in heaven, and therefore came down from heaven. His Spirit comes from above for it is Jehovah's Spirit; therefore he is from above. These two facts are also clear from Scripture.
He was conceived in a woman and therefore not outside of her.
Ignorant and corrupt men miss-translate Scripture to their own damnation.
Kyou turning in circle ,not answering my points ,from the scriptures,
and your damnation his not Gods one,you are only a man ,
and by not adressing my points ,you are making the rules and so judge the word of God, not me
T,
You seem not to understand what conceived means? It is the female's version of sired. It does not harmonize with your teaching and neither does Jesus being twelve years old and then about thirty years old. These ideas are found in Scripture but you have to look and believe.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2012,07:20) T, You seem not to understand what conceived means? It is the female's version of sired. It does not harmonize with your teaching and neither does Jesus being twelve years old and then about thirty years old. These ideas are found in Scripture but you have to look and believe.
KCircling again,well have a nice trip
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2012,14:22) The question is how creditable the Jews are and what Jesus meant by his earlier words.
Not really, Kerwin. The REAL question is: What did JESUS say in reply to those Jews?The Jews displayed disbelief that a man who looked to be less than fifty years old to their eyes had seen their father Abraham. The possible understandings of Jesus's answer to those Jews are:
A. Jesus AGREED with them, showing them that they were in fact CORRECT in saying he had not seen Abraham.
B. Jesus CORRECTED them in their false assumption.
Kerwin, which one is the right answer? Was Jesus AGREEING with those whom you call “non-credible Jews”, meaning these Jews were RIGHT? YES or NO?
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2012,17:13) I support the translation-interpretation that Jesus teaches us that “before Abraham is to become”; I am the one” because it is in harmony with the ideas that: 1} Jesus is greater than Abraham
2} Jesus is the Seed by which Abraham has now become the father of many nations of children, who have a faith like his
Really Kerwin?Do you REALLY believe that the words, “before Abraham is to become, I am the one” are a SENSIBLE WAY for Jesus to explain that he is the seed of Abraham and greater than Abraham?
That smacks of pure, unadulterated NONSENSE. Before Abraham is to become WHAT? And how do the words “I am the one” say, “I am the seed of Abraham and greater than him”? Kerwin, which of the following sentences makes the most sense to English speaking people:
A. Philip, I AM with you for the past three years.
B. Philip, I HAVE BEEN with you for the past three years.
Please answer DIRECTLY with an “A”, or a “B”.
Quote (2besee @ Oct. 29 2012,02:45) Revelation 3:14
'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation'The Greek says 'These things says the Amen, the witness, faithful and TRUE, the beginning of the creation of God.
Just my two cents.
Your two cents are worth a million dollars this time, 2besee, because they are straight out of the scriptures.I understand the words, “the beginning of the creation of God” to mean that Jesus was the beginning of God's creations – just like it says. I understand it the very way it was written because I don't have a pre-conceived notion to protect.
Others on this site imagine a variety of other, abstract meanings for those words, because they are trying their best to FORCE the scriptures to teach what they WANT them to teach.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 28 2012,10:12) Tell us Mike why don't you seek scripture harmony that shows Jesus was a “SON OF MAN”, he seemed to think he was saying it over and over many times.
Once again Gene (for about the 100th time), none of us have ever said that Jesus was NOT the Son of Man.There is NOTHING we say that disharmonizes with the SCRIPTURES, Gene. What we say often disharmonizes with YOUR PRE-CONCEIVED NOTION THAT JESUS HAD TO HAVE BEEN EXACTLY LIKE US – but it doesn't disharmonize with the scriptures themselves.
Try not to confuse your own personal WISHES with the words of scripture – as they are often two very different things.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2012,08:48) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 28 2012,10:12) Tell us Mike why don't you seek scripture harmony that shows Jesus was a “SON OF MAN”, he seemed to think he was saying it over and over many times.
Once again Gene (for about the 100th time), none of us have ever said that Jesus was NOT the Son of Man.There is NOTHING we say that disharmonizes with the SCRIPTURES, Gene. What we say often disharmonizes with YOUR PRE-CONCEIVED NOTION THAT JESUS HAD TO HAVE BEEN EXACTLY LIKE US – but it doesn't disharmonize with the scriptures themselves.
Try not to confuse your own personal WISHES with the words of scripture – as they are often two very different things.
Mike…..Good so you do admit Jesus was a “Son .”OF” Man”Now lets deal with the word “OF” . To me that means “FROM” another words when Jesus says he is a Son of Man, it is the same as saying he came into “existence” through mankind, the same way we all did.
If he had a prior existence he would not truly be a son of or “from” man at all but would have a “morphed” into a human body which would made him not a son of man at all but a morphed being of some kind.
Jesus is not 100% man and 100% God, demigod, angel, or whatever. I have listed to you and your cohorts many scriptures and you all fail to even commit on then why is that Mike?
Jesus is never seen as anything else but a son of or from man , he is also a son of God the exact same was all mankind is also, being it was God who originally created us all.
Your preconceived religion of “separation” of Jesus ” exact identity” with the rest of humanity is a false teaching and it does advance a wedge between Jesus and the rest of humanity rather you realize it or not makes no difference it still performs the same evil work. IMO
Peace and love to you and your………………………..gene
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 30 2012,09:38) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2012,07:20) T, You seem not to understand what conceived means? It is the female's version of sired. It does not harmonize with your teaching and neither does Jesus being twelve years old and then about thirty years old. These ideas are found in Scripture but you have to look and believe.
KCircling again,well have a nice trip
T,I am not sure what you mean by circling but I know that Jesus was under 50 years old when he spoke with the Jews because God states it is and I believe him.
How was Jesus under 50 years old?
In what manner was Jesus conceived in Mary?
Quote Within hours of conception the fused gametes, a zygote, undergoes cell division. The presence of a hormone called progesterone prevents further female eggs being produced. Within the first week after conception the fertilized egg travels towards the uterus, where the continued growth of the zygote will occur in the form of an embryo. Note 1: My source is a tutorial by biology online.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 01 2012,01:55) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 30 2012,09:38) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2012,07:20) T, You seem not to understand what conceived means? It is the female's version of sired. It does not harmonize with your teaching and neither does Jesus being twelve years old and then about thirty years old. These ideas are found in Scripture but you have to look and believe.
KCircling again,well have a nice trip
T,I am not sure what you mean by circling but I know that Jesus was under 50 years old when he spoke with the Jews because God states it is and I believe him.
How was Jesus under 50 years old?
In what manner was Jesus conceived in Mary?
Quote Within hours of conception the fused gametes, a zygote, undergoes cell division. The presence of a hormone called progesterone prevents further female eggs being produced. Within the first week after conception the fertilized egg travels towards the uterus, where the continued growth of the zygote will occur in the form of an embryo. Note 1: My source is a tutorial by biology online.
]K
this is how i feel after spending months on this subject so believe what you want to ,it seems you can read better than I can
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