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Hi Gene,
Does this verse “mean” that David knew Jesus was of more importance too…
“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall
send the rod of thy strength (HolySpirit) out of Zion: rule
thou in the midst of thine enemies.” (Psalms 110:1-2)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike,
“Before Abraham became/to become” is the words while “Before Abraham came into existence” is an interpretation of the words. As for “I am” we have the same kind of verb in English so why change it to fit you interpretation better.
EDJ,GENE,KERWIN
why are you so against the SON OF GOD ,YOU ARE DOING WHAT
1Th 2:5 You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed—God is our witness.
1Th 2:6 We were not looking for praise from men, not from you or anyone else.1Th 5:4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
1Th 5:5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
1Th 5:6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled.
1Th 5:7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.
1Th 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 2:2 We had previously suffered and been insulted in Philippi, as you know, but with the help of our God we dared to tell you his gospel in spite of strong opposition.
1Th 2:3 For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you.
1Th 2:4 On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men.but God, who tests our hearts
1Th 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.
1Th 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews,
1Th 2:15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you?
1Th 2:20 Indeed,. you are our glory and joy1Th 4:1 Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and. urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more
IF WE DO NOT IMPROVE DAY AFTER DAY ;WHAT IS IT THAT AS STOPPED US
IS IT NOT THE DEVIL THAT STOPS GODS WORK Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 14 2012,12:47) Hi Gene, Does this verse “mean” that David knew Jesus was of more importance too…
“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall
send the rod of thy strength (HolySpirit) out of Zion: rule
thou in the midst of thine enemies.” (Psalms 110:1-2)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDJ…………I have just read a Paper one the word David used there and One word for LORD ” Yahweh ” meant Lord God while the or the word “adon” mean just a human Lord or ruler and had no reference to a God at all.Another words it should have been understood to read like this < "the LORD GOD, Said unto my Lord "Jesus" (a human ruler) sit on my right until I make your enemies your footstool".
This is the way i always have understood it Edj.
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 15 2012,00:57) IF WE DO NOT IMPROVE DAY AFTER DAY ;WHAT IS IT THAT AS STOPPED US IS IT NOT THE DEVIL THAT STOPS GODS WORK
Terricca………….So what has stopped you from seeing the truth presented to you Pierre?peace and love……………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 15 2012,09:38) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 15 2012,00:57) IF WE DO NOT IMPROVE DAY AFTER DAY ;WHAT IS IT THAT AS STOPPED US IS IT NOT THE DEVIL THAT STOPS GODS WORK
Terricca………….So what has stopped you from seeing the truth presented to you Pierre?peace and love……………………………………….gene
genePR 15:21 Folly is joy to him who lacks sense,
But a man of understanding walks straight.PR 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight,
But the LORD weighs the motives.PR 10:23 Doing wickedness is like sport to a fool,
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2012,00:21) Mike, “Before Abraham became/to become” is the words while “Before Abraham came into existence” is an interpretation of the words. As for “I am” we have the same kind of verb in English so why change it to fit you interpretation better.
Kerwin,The following are the questions I asked you. Please DIRECTLY answer them this time.
1. Doesn't “Abraham became” mean basically the same thing as “Abraham came into being”?
2. Can you tell me that the words “I have been” in John 14:9 are “faulty”, or that it deters from the teaching? YES or NO?
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 15 2012,00:57) EDJ, why are you so against the SON OF GOD
Hi Pierre,I ain't; always with the false accusations, huh?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 15 2012,02:33) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 14 2012,12:47) Hi Gene, Does this verse “mean” that David knew Jesus was of more importance too…
“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall
send the rod of thy strength (HolySpirit) out of Zion: rule
thou in the midst of thine enemies.” (Psalms 110:1-2)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDJ…………I have just read a Paper one the word David used there and One word for LORD ” Yahweh ” meant Lord God while the or the word “adon” mean just a human Lord or ruler and had no reference to a God at all.Another words it should have been understood to read like this < "the LORD GOD, Said unto my Lord "Jesus" (a human ruler) sit on my right until I make your enemies your footstool".
This is the way i always have understood it Edj.
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
Hi Gene,Are you going to answer my question now?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 15 2012,01:16) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2012,00:21) Mike, “Before Abraham became/to become” is the words while “Before Abraham came into existence” is an interpretation of the words. As for “I am” we have the same kind of verb in English so why change it to fit you interpretation better.
Kerwin,The following are the questions I asked you. Please DIRECTLY answer them this time.
1. Doesn't “Abraham became” mean basically the same thing as “Abraham came into being”?
2. Can you tell me that the words “I have been” in John 14:9 are “faulty”, or that it deters from the teaching? YES or NO?
Mike,This is two verses where became/become is used and they do mean became/become in some form but not necessary born or exist. Both examples the KJV uses it at the end of the sentence. In both the English became/become or one its dirivatives will work. Context is what determines its meaning.
Matthew 21:21
King James Version (KJV)21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Matthew 5:18
King James Version (KJV)18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The English language does not have an aorist so it is sometimes needful to fake it by a thought to thought translation; even though such a translation is more subject to bias. In both these verses as well as John 8:58 of the NWT the translaters to liberties by using a thought for thought translation instead of a litteral translation when the earlier was not forced on them.
Here is what John 14:9 of the KJV states:
John 14:9
King James Version (KJV)9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
It is a poor translation as “I am so very long with you…” is correct in that it reveals a continuous presence of Jesus with Philip, which is corrrect, and not a past one, which is incorrect. The sentence stucture is still poor as the proper one in modern English is “I am with you so very long…”
My understanding of a teaching from John 8 in general, and John 8:58 specifically.
By his faith Abraham became the father of many nations.
Before Abraham became, Jesus is he.John 8:39
King James Version (KJV)39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
John 8:53
King James Version (KJV)53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
John 8:56
King James Version (KJV)56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Romans 4:16-18
King James Version (KJV)16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,22:19) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,06:33) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,17:28) T, This is what the KJV states.
Psalm 49:6-7
King James Version (KJV)6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:Jesus is not one of “them” for he has never sinned.
Colossians 1:10 teaches how to love as Jehovah does; a lesson that is the sum of Scripture.
Klook back in the start of our conversation and you can see you are going out of track ,your answer does not even make sense
T,Where do you consider the start of our conversation to be?
kQuote Jesus is not one of “them” for he has never sinned. so Jesus was not a Jew
any man that his born from men his born in sin ,Mary was used by God to give his son a cloth of human flesh and blood,
simple miracle no rocket science that is what God his father did for his son to come down and give his human live for the sake of all men ,
one more question to you ;were in scriptures does it says that Christ will ever return has a human
?Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 15 2012,07:28) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 15 2012,02:33) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 14 2012,12:47) Hi Gene, Does this verse “mean” that David knew Jesus was of more importance too…
“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall
send the rod of thy strength (HolySpirit) out of Zion: rule
thou in the midst of thine enemies.” (Psalms 110:1-2)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDJ…………I have just read a Paper one the word David used there and One word for LORD ” Yahweh ” meant Lord God while the or the word “adon” mean just a human Lord or ruler and had no reference to a God at all.Another words it should have been understood to read like this < "the LORD GOD, Said unto my Lord "Jesus" (a human ruler) sit on my right until I make your enemies your footstool".
This is the way i always have understood it Edj.
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
Hi Gene,Are you going to answer my question now?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EdJ………..Yes in that “prophetic” statement he sure did know Jesus “would” be. IMOHope that answered you question brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 15 2012,10:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 15 2012,01:16) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2012,00:21) Mike, “Before Abraham became/to become” is the words while “Before Abraham came into existence” is an interpretation of the words. As for “I am” we have the same kind of verb in English so why change it to fit you interpretation better.
Kerwin,The following are the questions I asked you. Please DIRECTLY answer them this time.
1. Doesn't “Abraham became” mean basically the same thing as “Abraham came into being”?
2. Can you tell me that the words “I have been” in John 14:9 are “faulty”, or that it deters from the teaching? YES or NO?
Mike,This is two verses where became/become is used and they do mean became/become in some form but not necessary born or exist. Both examples the KJV uses it at the end of the sentence. In both the English became/become or one its dirivatives will work. Context is what determines its meaning.
Matthew 21:21
King James Version (KJV)21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Matthew 5:18
King James Version (KJV)18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The English language does not have an aorist so it is sometimes needful to fake it by a thought to thought translation; even though such a translation is more subject to bias. In both these verses as well as John 8:58 of the NWT the translaters to liberties by using a thought for thought translation instead of a litteral translation when the earlier was not forced on them.
Here is what John 14:9 of the KJV states:
John 14:9
King James Version (KJV)9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
It is a poor translation as “I am so very long with you…” is correct in that it reveals a continuous presence of Jesus with Philip, which is corrrect, and not a past one, which is incorrect. The sentence stucture is still poor as the proper one in modern English is “I am with you so very long…”
My understanding of a teaching from John 8 in general, and John 8:58 specifically.
By his faith Abraham became the father of many nations.
Before Abraham became, Jesus is he.John 8:39
King James Version (KJV)39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
John 8:53
King James Version (KJV)53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
John 8:56
King James Version (KJV)56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Romans 4:16-18
King James Version (KJV)16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Kerwin………> For sure the “SEED” of Abraham was Jesus. And indeed Abraham rejoiced to see His Day (a future event), that also proves Jesus had not yet come into existence, or Abraham would have already been seeing his day, becasue he would have already been alive during his lifetime.Just another point that Jesus did not Preexist his Berth on this earth. Jesus was foretold to come into existence at a certain Day or period of time, and Abraham foresaw it.
Good Scholarship Brother.
peace and love to you and your………………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2012,17:41) Mike, This is two verses where became/become is used and they do mean became/become in some form but not necessary born or exist.
Kerwin,Here are the first two definitions of “ginomai”, according to NETNotes:
ginomai
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happenThe two verses you listed obviously have the second definition, ie: a meaning of “come to pass”.
Does that definition fit John 8:58? “Before Abraham came to pass, I have been”…………
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2012,17:41) Here is what John 14:9 of the KJV states: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you……………
It is a poor translation as “I am so very long with you…” is correct in that it reveals a continuous presence of Jesus with Philip, which is corrrect, and not a past one, which is incorrect.
Kerwin, this statement is so OBVIOUSLY a statement of BIAS from you, seeing how virtually EVERY English translation that has ever been produced uses “I have been”, or “Have I been” in John 14:9.
The teaching from Jesus was NOT, I am CURRENTLY with you, so you should know these things. It was, I HAVE BEEN with you for such a long time that you should BY NOW know these things.
Consider the man who speaks English as a second language saying, “I am married to my wife for 15 years.” We all know he means “I HAVE BEEN married to my wife for 15 years”, and that there is simply an idiomatic breakdown between the languages.
I'm quite sure you are able to understand this, but refuse to ADMIT to this understanding for PERSONAL, BIASED reasons. You are only fooling yourself on this one, Kerwin. The rest of us (including the Greek experts that translated all these English translations) understand 14:9 correctly.
Here are some words from Greek expert Jason BeDuhn:
“The majority of translations recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear. Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate. All the translations except the LB and NWT also ignore the true relation between the verbs of the sentence and produce a sentence that makes no sense in English.“
Your pretend understanding of John 8:58 makes no sense in English, Kerwin. But I have gotten very used to the NONSENSICAL interpretations of people who insist upon forcing their own understanding into the scriptures so they can keep their flawed doctrine.
For you to say “I have been” in 14:9 is faulty, just goes to show how far you're willing to go to force your own understanding into the scriptures.
Like I keep saying, the fact that you don't admit to certain scriptural teachings is not to say those teachings aren't true.
So you keep on believing that before Abraham came to pass, I am makes any kind of sense if you want to. As for me, I don't have pre-conceived notions to protect, therefore I am free to understand the scriptural teachings as they were intended.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 16 2012,09:42) And indeed Abraham rejoiced to see His Day (a future event), that also proves Jesus had not yet come into existence, or Abraham would have already been seeing his day, becasue he would have already been alive during his lifetime.
Gene,I have rejoiced to see “The Day of the Lord”, as prophesied many times throughout scripture. Does that mean the Lord doesn't yet exist?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 17 2012,02:17) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 15 2012,07:28) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 15 2012,02:33) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 14 2012,12:47) Hi Gene, Does this verse “mean” that David knew Jesus was of more importance too…
“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall
send the rod of thy strength (HolySpirit) out of Zion: rule
thou in the midst of thine enemies.” (Psalms 110:1-2)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDJ…………I have just read a Paper one the word David used there and One word for LORD ” Yahweh ” meant Lord God while the or the word “adon” mean just a human Lord or ruler and had no reference to a God at all.Another words it should have been understood to read like this < "the LORD GOD, Said unto my Lord "Jesus" (a human ruler) sit on my right until I make your enemies your footstool".
This is the way i always have understood it Edj.
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
Hi Gene,Are you going to answer my question now?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EdJ………..Yes in that “prophetic” statement he sure did know Jesus “would” be. IMOHope that answered you question brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Hi Gene,Yes, that does answer my question; thank you!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike,
I unintentional mislabeled the verb as a present continuous. It is instead a present indicative.
The present indicative is used in English as it is used in Ancient Greek; though there may be some differences in its applications. Translators have literally translated it a number of times, including:
Matthew 28:20
King James Version (KJV)20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
and
John 13:33
King James Version (KJV)33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Accept for the poor modern grammar in the KJV the English present indicatives in these passages were literally translated from the Ancient Greek present indicatives. On the other hand the KJV translation has chosen to translate the Ancient Greek present indicative verb “am” of John 14:9 to a English present continuous verb “I have been”. Except for my mislabel this is exactly what was done.
Jason BeDuhn seems unaware of the fact that English like Ancient Greek has a present indicative. “I am” as a present indicative is not the problematic verb in John 8:58 as it is a literal translation. The aorist infinitive by it's very nature is more problematic as English does not have an aorist.
NETNotes is correct in its way but how does that way apply to Romans 4:18 that uses the very same verb form of “ginomai” that John 8:58 does. In fact Abbraham's becoming a father is mentioned a number of times in Jesus' conversation with the Jews. If you translate “ginomai” as it is translated in Romans 4:18 then the situation Jason BeDuhn noted disappears, except for the poor modern English sentence structure.
In my writing I have not changed a verb form anywhere when translating Ancient Greek to modern English, except where necessary. In the case it is necessary I have chosen to imitate an excepted translation of an aorist infinitive middle that also speaks of Abraham becoming. In doing so the tenses of the sentence becomes homogeneous.
The NWT changes verb form of “I am”, not because it is necessary, but because it fits their teaching. Like the KJV before them they chose a past tense translation of the aorist because it fits their understanding, not because it goes with the present indicative. The KJV keeps the present indicative form of “I am” because they teach it is God's name and not because it goes with their choice of verb tense earlier in the sentence.
Kerwin,
That is all very nice and fine. It is clear that there is no end to the lengths to which you will go to keep 8:58 from teaching what it SO OBVIOUSLY teaches.
Tell me…………… does rendering “ego eimi” in John 14:9 as “I have been” change the teaching? Does it alter anything? Or, better yet, does the present tense “I am” even make sense in the context?
What is the USUAL way of saying the following, Kerwin:
1. For the past 3 years I AM with you……………
2. For the past 3 years I HAVE BEEN with you………..
The obvious and HONEST answer is #2 – and you know it. Jesus was wondering why, AFTER ALREADY BEING WITH PHILIP FOR SUCH A LONG TIME, Philip didn't understand certain things.
He was not saying, “I am RIGHT NOW with you FOR SUCH A LONG TIME that you should know these things.”
Therefore, the way that virtually EVERY English translation renders 14:9 conveys the OBVIOUS intent of what Jesus was saying to Philip.
Like I said, you can play word games and try to find little “alibis” based on idiomatic problems that occur when translating Greek into English if it makes your heart happy. But you're not fooling anyone here, Kerwin. We are all fully capable of reading between the lines and figuring out that you are only going to such great and nonsensical lengths because you don't LIKE the teaching in 8:58.
Tell me once again what TEACHING Jesus was delivering in YOUR interpretation of 8:58. What was he teaching the Pharisees, in your opinion?
Mike. You just don't get it. It was a secret code, a hidden message that Jesus gave to us, which coincidentally supports the trinity belief. “I am” mike. It's so obvious. He said “I am,” a verb which is extremely rare and hardly ever used. Why would he do that? It was a secret message!
Quote What is the USUAL way of saying the following, Kerwin: 1. For the past 3 years I AM with you……………
2. For the past 3 years I HAVE BEEN with you………..
I have been wanting to hear kerwins response to this. Lets set aside the NWT for a second, and focus on the scripture itself. If Jesus had been speaking to us, and if he had been speaking English, what would he have said? I have been trying to figure out how anyone can even make a case for anything other than “have been” in the context of this verse.
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