The Angel of the LORD

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2012,06:29)

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 30 2012,04:00) That is why when it is removed, you are no longer here, but your spirit still obviously exists somewhere, whether in a sleep or not. The spirit goes back to Him who gave it.  It is the soul that begins to exist somewhere else as the body begins to decay.  That “somewhere else” is called Sheol in Hebrew, and Hades in Greek.

Agreed. And yes the spirit does go elsewhere, which is back to God as you say.

I too believe the soul remains after death however, I am open to them being alive in the sense that the souls under the altar of God were told to rest a little longer after they inquired of YHWH when he would avenge their split blood. Rest is not the same as having the plug pulled so to speak IMO.

To me the difference (even contradictions) between descriptions of death for the righteous are answered by what Jesus did when he died for us. Because he has the keys of death, I believe that we are with God and his son once we die. Whereas pre Jesus death, both the righteous and wicked went to hades, but that there was a gulf separating the wicked and righteous. The Book of Enoch goes into the description with more detail if I remember.

Of course if the plug was pulled (spirit returned to God temporarily) once we were plugged back in, our death would be instant. No time would have passed from our experience. Thus we would die and immediately be with God and his son (from our view) with this explanation too.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 03 2012,16:53)

our difference is only in what I said that the spirit that return to God his our soul ,because the soul his the spirit part of us

What about the spirit that made Adam a living soul. Was not that spirit given by God that resulted in him having a living soul.

Also, it is written somewhere that we know we are the sons of God when our spirit is one with his spirit. So this is either the spirit of man or soul. Perhaps the same thing. Regardless, it defines 2 spirits. Our one and God's one. This is how we are one with God.

[kerwin]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 03 2012,16:51)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 03 2012,16:53) our difference is only in what I said that the spirit that return to God his our soul ,because the soul his the spirit part of us What about the spirit that made Adam a living soul. Was not that spirit given by God that resulted in him having a living soul. Also, it is written somewhere that we know we are the sons of God when our spirit is one with his spirit. So this is either the spirit of man or soul. Perhaps the same thing. Regardless, it defines 2 spirits. Our one and God's one. This is how we are one with God.

T8,

We are instructed to walk according to the spirit. The Spirit that we are instructed to walk by is neither the soul, as you do not walk by the soul, nor is it the on man walks by, as man falls short of the glory of God. I do not see a spirit short of God's glory returning to Jehovah as did not come from him. Our souls did.

[terraricca]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2012,04:51)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 03 2012,16:53) our difference is only in what I said that the spirit that return to God his our soul ,because the soul his the spirit part of us What about the spirit that made Adam a living soul. Was not that spirit given by God that resulted in him having a living soul. Also, it is written somewhere that we know we are the sons of God when our spirit is one with his spirit. So this is either the spirit of man or soul. Perhaps the same thing. Regardless, it defines 2 spirits. Our one and God's one. This is how we are one with God.

t8

Ge 1:30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it

Ge 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and .breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being

their is no spirit ,but breath given through his nostrils ,what mean to me is that wen God was finish to make Adam ,the only thing missing was the ability to breath,this is been repeated at every birth ,NO yes.

MT 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

Mt 6:19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
Mt 6:20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
Mt 6:21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Mt 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light.
Mt 6:23 But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
Mt 6:24 “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

so if we do not make our heart and soul (store container)with godly wealth we would have nothing at all to be saved

[mikeboll64]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 03 2012,04:45)

I too believe the soul remains after death however, I am open to them being alive in the sense that the souls under the altar of God were told to rest a little longer after they inquired of YHWH when he would avenge their split blood.

I believe that these souls under the alter are those about whom Jesus said, “not all will taste death before the Son of Man comes in his glory”.

The angel explains to John that these are the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

In my understanding, certain people DO go to heaven when they die – but only those who are killed explicitely for maintaining the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

(There were also two OT instances of men being taken directly to heaven, without the stopover in Sheol……….. Enoch and Elijah.)

All others are said to “sleep”, or “rest” with their fathers in Sheol/Hades until the resurrection.  I believe that when Samuel asks this question…………..

1 Samuel 28:15
Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

…………. he is talking about being awakened from his sleep.  The translators of the Bible in Basis English apparently agree, for they render it as, Why have you made me come up, troubling my rest?

Anyway, this is how I understand it.

[terraricca]

all

Judges 13:16-18
16 The angel of the LORD said to Manoah, “Though you detain me, I will not eat your food, but if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD.” For Manoah did not know that he was the angel of the LORD.
17 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?”
18 But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Isaiah 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Pr 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Pr 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Pr 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was

Christ his the son of God from the very beginning right

[mikeboll64]

Yep.  From the instant his God created him before the ages, he has been the Son of God.

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 06 2012,10:25)

Yep.  From the instant his God created him before the ages, he has been the Son of God.

Hi Mike,

I personally don't care if you believe that,
but can you show me the scriptures that
caused you to come to this conclusion?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

Pierre,

Wonderful in Judges is a translated from a different word than wonderful in Isaiah. They are similar with both having the same word origin.

Some translations translate the word in judges to “secret” instead of “wonderful”

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2012,02:45)

Pierre, Wonderful in Judges is a translated from a different word than wonderful in Isaiah.  They are similar with both having the same word origin. Some translations translate the word in judges to “secret” instead of “wonderful”

kerwin

in both cases Christ will be justified and have the glory to be who he says he his.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 06 2012,22:53)

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2012,02:45) Pierre, Wonderful in Judges is a translated from a different word than wonderful in Isaiah.  They are similar with both having the same word origin. Some translations translate the word in judges to “secret” instead of “wonderful” kerwin in both cases Christ will be justified and have the glory to be who he says he his.

T,

The angel is not declaring himself to be the Wonderful Councilor that is to come but instead that his name was “too wonderful to be understood”.  That is why some, even among Trinitarians, translate it secret or incomprehensible.  

Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Jehovah just as his father David is a christ, a son of God; a child of Israel.

2 Samuel 7
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

v12 When your days come to an end and you sleep with your ancestors, I will establish one of your descendants to succeed you, one of your own flesh and blood; and I will set up his rulership. 13 He will build a house for my name, and I will establish his royal throne forever. 14 I will be a father for him, and he will be a son for me. If he does something wrong, I will punish him with a rod and blows, just as everyone gets punished; 15 nevertheless, my grace will not leave him, as I took it away from Sha’ul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Thus your house and your kingdom will be made secure forever before you; your throne will be set up forever.’” 17 Natan told David all of these words and described this entire vision.

This passage teaches us the Christ is a descendant of David and that Jehovah is a Father to him and that Jesus is a Son to him.

You seem not to comprehend that a human being has a father of the flesh and a father of the spirit.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2012,14:07)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 06 2012,22:53) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2012,02:45) Pierre, Wonderful in Judges is a translated from a different word than wonderful in Isaiah.  They are similar with both having the same word origin. Some translations translate the word in judges to “secret” instead of “wonderful” kerwin in both cases Christ will be justified and have the glory to be who he says he his. T, The angel is not declaring himself to be the Wonderful Councilor that is to come but instead that his name was “too wonderful to be understood”.  That is why some, even among Trinitarians, translate it secret or incomprehensible.   Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Jehovah just as his father David is a christ, a son of God; a child of Israel. 2 Samuel 7 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) v12 When your days come to an end and you sleep with your ancestors, I will establish one of your descendants to succeed you, one of your own flesh and blood; and I will set up his rulership. 13 He will build a house for my name, and I will establish his royal throne forever. 14 I will be a father for him, and he will be a son for me. If he does something wrong, I will punish him with a rod and blows, just as everyone gets punished; 15 nevertheless, my grace will not leave him, as I took it away from Sha’ul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Thus your house and your kingdom will be made secure forever before you; your throne will be set up forever.’” 17 Natan told David all of these words and described this entire vision. This passage teaches us the Christ is a descendant of David and that Jehovah is a Father to him and that Jesus is a Son to him. You seem not to comprehend that a human being has a father of the flesh and a father of the spirit.

kerwin

Quote

You seem not to comprehend that a human being has a father of the flesh and a father of the spirit.

being born of the will of men ;is being born in the flesh,

being born of the spirit ;means your father his God and so nothing to do with the flesh,

Christ is born (or created by the father for the father )their is no flesh,no will of men ;

wen Christ was conceived it was not by the will of the flesh but by the will of God so his father is God and as so nothing to do with men .

all connection to the flesh are but allegories ,or part of what it takes to fulfill Gods will.

[mikeboll64]

Ed,

All things, whether invisible things in heaven, or visible things on earth, were created through God's only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.  (Heb 1:2, Col 1:16)

The word in Heb 1:2 is “ages”, Ed. If the “ages” were created through God's Son Jesus Christ, then he must have been God's Son Jesus Christ BEFORE the “ages” were created through him, right?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 06 2012,14:07)

This passage teaches us the Christ is a descendant of David and that Jehovah is a Father to him and that Jesus is a Son to him.

It is true that we are taught that Christ is the Branch of David/Jesse. BUT………………. we are ALSO taught that Christ is the ROOT of David/Jesse.

For personal reasons, Kerwin only accepts one of these two teachings.

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin………You are right apsolutly right. The man Jesus is the one God was speaking of , he is the heir of his father king David's throne. Jesus plainly said he was the root and offspring of king David. No matter how hard these deceived separatist Try to separate Jesus' human identity with his human Father and us they Can't , without destroying the integrity of our scriptures. IMO

Peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene

[terraricca]

Quote

For personal reasons, Kerwin only accepts one of these two teachings

it is hard to some to subject themself to the word of God,and so be saved ,

[kerwin]

T,

Jehovah is not created and so has no bloodline.

Jesus is of David's bloodline and neither David nor Jesse are a descendant of Jesus.

John 1:12-13
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

12 But to as many as did receive him, to those who put their trust in his person and power, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 not because of bloodline, physical impulse or human intention, but because of God.

Jesus was indeed conceived miraculously and so not of a physical impulse or human intention but he is of the bloodline of David.

Jesus was born of the Spirit of the Son that compelled him to cry Abba, Father.

Mark 14:36
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

36 “Abba!” (that is, “Dear Father!”) “All things are possible for you. Take this cup away from me! Still, not what I want, but what you want.”

Note:Correction made underlined text.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2012,19:35)

T, Jehovah is not created and so has no bloodline. Jesus is of David's bloodline and David is not a descendant of David or Jesse. John 1:12-13 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) 12 But to as many as did receive him, to those who put their trust in his person and power, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 not because of bloodline, physical impulse or human intention, but because of God. Jesus was indeed conceived miraculously and so not of a physical impulse or human intention but he is of the bloodline of David. Jesus was born of the Spirit of the Son that compelled him to cry Abba, Father. Mark 14:36 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) 36 “Abba!” (that is, “Dear Father!”) “All things are possible for you. Take this cup away from me! Still, not what I want, but what you want.”

Kerwin

Quote

T, Jehovah is not created and so has no bloodline. Jesus is of David's bloodline and David is not a descendant of David or Jesse.

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 07 2012,07:59)

Ed, All things, whether invisible things in heaven, or visible things on earth, were created through God's only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.  (Heb 1:2, Col 1:16)   The word in Heb 1:2 is “ages”, Ed.  If the “ages” were created through God's Son Jesus Christ, then he must have been God's Son Jesus Christ BEFORE the “ages” were created through him, right?

Hi Mike,

I do understand how you are putting the pieces together, but I
don't see it that way at all. Here is how I put the pieces together:
All things were created by God alone – because of Jesus' crucifixion.

I believe that the spirit of Christ was part of God
before he was born, and God was part of him at his birth.

Jesus was (according to you) an angel in his preexistant state,
But there are many verses of Scripture that discount this idea.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 07 2012,09:05)

Kerwin………You are right apsolutly right. The man Jesus is the one God was speaking of , he is the heir of his   father king David's throne. Jesus plainly said he was the root and offspring of king David. No matter how hard these deceived separatist   Try to separate Jesus' human identity with his human Father and us they Can't , without destroying the integrity of our scriptures.  IMO Peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene

Hi Gene,

Jesus didn't have a human father.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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