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Quote (terraricca @ July 28 2012,15:23) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 28 2012,20:35) Quote (terraricca @ July 28 2012,10:30) Quote (Wakeup @ July 28 2012,17:22) Quote (terraricca @ July 28 2012,01:26) wakeup Quote Terra. It means you shall not SEE DEATH.
How shall we not SEE death?ok, so next question “WHAT IS DEAD
Terra.Now you are answering a question with a question.
Death means when you stop living,when you give up your last breath.wakeup.
wakeupif this is so ;then why scriptures is saying that God is the God of the living the God of Abraham ,Isaac ,and Jacob.
this is the answer you seek;But Jesus said you will not SEE DEATH
please tell me how that works in your view that we stop breathing and we dead
Terricca…………Because God is SPIRIT and Spirit (IS) Life, God can not be the God of the dead, because they are “DEAD”. And as a result of being dead they have no Spirit (IN) them. When a person dies their Sprit returns to him who gave it and is Kept by Him , remember Jesus said “Father i commend My Spirit unto You. But Jesus the man died his Spirit was kept in tack by God who raised up his Body and put his spirit back into it, Just as all the restrictions of the dead will have happen to them. Spirit are in a “SENSE” like a record or cassette, They can be taken out of Player and they are no longer Hear . they can be placed on a shelf for a long time and then put back into a Player (i.e a Body) and played again. But when they are stored they are not performing . So it is when we die , that is why Paul said for we hope for the “resurrection” that will (WITNESS) the redemption of our “BODIES” . Just as a record cannot be played without a player. The potential is there but without a Body to animate it is useless. IMOpeace and love to you and yours Pierre……………………………….gene
geneit is difficult for someone to understand those things that are only understood by the understanding of the meaning of scriptures that God as allowed us to understand those are the spirits,
the fact that God his a spirit as nothing to do with it because Jesus did not talk about spirit beings but about human BEINGS,ABRAHAM, ISAAC,JACOB,
IF THE SPIRIT HIS LIVE ,WHAT WOULD BE THAT SPIRIT
Terricca………….What did Jesus says Spirit was?, the words I am telling you “ARE” Spirit and “ARE” Life. Just that simple Life is what Spirit is , and our words express that Spiirt life that is “IN” us. Get it?The Flesh is not the life that is in it, that the life, is the kind or type of spirit IN IT. When we die our Spirit does not die it goes into a state of unconsciousness or inactivity we are unaware of anything until a New is regenerated and our Spirits are added back into them. That is called the resurrection of the dead . What does Scripture say , the dead know nothing, in the day they die their “thought” Parish. And again scripture shows there is No activity (IN) the grave Just as it say in scripture the is no work or thoughts taking place when a person dies. Need Scripture ? I have posted them many times here.
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob are all still asleep or inactive without consciousness they are waiting the “RESURRECTION” back to Life again with a body Just as Jesus the first to achieve that goal from the grave has. God has made it that none of the Patriarchs and Prophets will become “LIVINGS SOULS” again without us also. as Scripture say . When are you people going to start to believe there is a resurrection of the “DEAD” ?
peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………….gen
gene
Quote Terricca………….What did Jesus says Spirit was?, the words I am telling you “ARE” Spirit and “ARE” Life. Just that simple Life is what Spirit is , and our words express that Spiirt life that is “IN” us. Get it? The Flesh is not the life that is in it, that the life, is the kind or type of spirit IN IT. When we die our Spirit does not die it goes into a state of unconsciousness or inactivity we are unaware of anything until a New is regenerated and our Spirits are added back into them. That is called the resurrection of the dead . What does Scripture say , the dead know nothing, in the day they die their “thought” Parish. And again scripture shows there is No activity (IN) the grave Just as it say in scripture the is no work or thoughts taking place when a person dies. Need Scripture ? I have posted them many times here.
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob are all still asleep or inactive without consciousness they are waiting the “RESURRECTION” back to Life again with a body Just as Jesus the first to achieve that goal from the grave has. God has made it that none of the Patriarchs and Prophets will become “LIVINGS SOULS” again without us also. as Scripture say . When are you people going to start to believe there is a resurrection of the “DEAD” ?
peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………….gen
Edited by Gene Balthrop on July 29 2012,08:31
the words I am telling you “ARE” Spirit and “ARE” Life
tell just like if we both were beside Christ when he said those words ;and I ask you, what does it mean what Jesus just said
is it not knowledge because if not then what is this meaning of; the dead know nothing, in the day they die their “thought” Parish,Terricca………… sorry I am not following you . Please try to clarify what you saying Brother.
peace and love to you………………………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ July 27 2012,03:34) Here is a better example “Before Fred is to think, I am”.
“Before Fred is to think, I am”? Is that supposed to make sense to anyone?Kerwin,
I just roll my eyes when you start with these absolutely nonsensical things certain word phrases could mean. It is clear to the rest of us that you are going to illogical lengths just to force the words to say something other than what they CLEARLY mean.
The statement, “I think, therefore I am” means, “I think, therefore I EXIST“. It's not rocket science. But because you KNOW that's what it means, yet don't want the word “exist” to be associated with Jesus saying “I am” in 8:58, you will continue to PRETEND that you don't know the very simple meaning of “I think, therefore I am”.
Don't you feel just a little bit ashamed of your doctrine when you have to disassociate yourself with the (in your own words) “REASONABLE” meaning of certain phrases, and opt instead for nonsensical ones? I mean, look at this that you just posted:
Quote Jesus is instead teaching that before Abraham “to become”, I am.
What the freak does that even mean? Do you seriously think that makes a lick of sense to anyone? While it may be true that, in verse 56, Jesus was speaking of Abraham seeing his day via prophecy, the Jews equated that statement with Jesus literally having seen Abraham. They claimed that this could not be since Jesus hadn't even lived for 50 years yet. His answer was a CORRECTION of their claim, as he pointed out to them that he was in existence even BEFORE Abraham existed.
That is the “REASONABLE” explanation of John 8:58, Kerwin. But because the “REASONABLE” explanation dampers your doctrine, you cannot accept it, and are reduced to imagining all sorts of NONSENSICAL things those clear words must mean instead of the “REASONABLE” explanation.
This is not a good way to go about understanding scripture, Kerwin. We should not START with our own solid beliefs, and then FORCE the scriptures to teach them.
Kerwin, you seem to be purposely focusing on verse 56 as a diversion, when our disagreement actually concerns the Jews' statement in verse 57, and Jesus' answer to that statement in verse 58.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2012,08:47) Terricca………… sorry I am not following you . Please try to clarify what you saying Brother. peace and love to you………………………………….gene
I can'tQuote (Gene Balthrop @ July 27 2012,08:17) Mike………..If iI say Before Abraham EXISTED, I have Been, still does not work for you, because I COULD ASK YOU , I have “been” what ?
And therein lies the answer, Gene.If someone says “I have been…………BUSY”, then we know they are talking about being busy.
If they say, “I have been…………SICK”, then we know they are talking about being ill.
BUT……………………
If a person simply says, “I have been”………… without anything else added to the end of the statement, then they are talking about existing.
Get it? The statement, “I think, therefore I am”, doesn't mean “I think, therefore I am busy”, because the author didn't add the word “busy” to the end of the sentence. Nor does it mean, “I think, therefore I am sick”, because the author didn't add the word “sick” to the end of the sentence. And without words added to the end of the sentence, the phrase “I am” simply (and always) means “I exist”.
Do you understand that the phrase, “I am TIRED” means one thing, while the phrase, “I am”, without a modifying word attached to the end, simply means “I exist”?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2012,01:47) Terricca………… sorry I am not following you . Please try to clarify what you saying Brother. peace and love to you………………………………….gene
Hi geneB.Terra is quoting John6:63.—-the words that I speak to you they are spirit,they are life.
There is power in his words.
In our words too.With just words one can make sombody happy or sad,or angree.
We also can create things with our words; discussing a project,or a plan.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ July 29 2012,10:12) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2012,01:47) Terricca………… sorry I am not following you . Please try to clarify what you saying Brother. peace and love to you………………………………….gene
Hi geneB.Terra is quoting John6:63.—-the words that I speak to you they are spirit,they are life.
There is power in his words.
In our words too.With just words one can make sombody happy or sad,or angree.
We also can create things with our words; discussing a project,or a plan.wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 29 2012,02:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 27 2012,08:17) Mike………..If iI say Before Abraham EXISTED, I have Been, still does not work for you, because I COULD ASK YOU , I have “been” what ?
And therein lies the answer, Gene.If someone says “I have been…………BUSY”, then we know they are talking about being busy.
If they say, “I have been…………SICK”, then we know they are talking about being ill.
BUT……………………
If a person simply says, “I have been”………… without anything else added to the end of the statement, then they are talking about existing.
Get it? The statement, “I think, therefore I am”, doesn't mean “I think, therefore I am busy”, because the author didn't add the word “busy” to the end of the sentence. Nor does it mean, “I think, therefore I am sick”, because the author didn't add the word “sick” to the end of the sentence. And without words added to the end of the sentence, the phrase “I am” simply (and always) means “I exist”.
Do you understand that the phrase, “I am TIRED” means one thing, while the phrase, “I am”, without a modifying word attached to the end, simply means “I exist”?
Mike, Mike, …….Talking about “SPECULATION” and ASSUMPTIONS, come on, if a Person say I have Been , My question would be been what? , your still forcing texts to meet you preexistences dogmas brother. You simply can not use “I HAVE BEEN” as any SPECIFIC statement that Jesus was talking about His existence as a sentinel “BEING” of any Kind. This i a good example why we can't make any head way here Mike, you seem to be unable to acknowledge what me and Kerwin are saying does make sense. IMOpeace and love to you and yours Mike………………………………………gene
Wakeup…….He was re-quoting what i Quoted out of scriptures to him. I want to Know what is His Point he was making , sometime Pierre has a hard time letting us understand him becasue of the language barriers . I just want to know what the meant by what he wrote the is all>
peace and love to you and yours Wakeup………………………………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 28 2012,12:06) if a Person say I have Been , My question would be been what? , your still forcing texts to meet you preexistences dogmas brother.
Genesis 31:38
“I have been with you for twenty years now. Your sheep and goats have not miscarried, nor have I eaten rams from your flocks.What did Jacob mean by the words “I have been” in the scripture above, Gene? Would you ask him the question, “You have been WHAT?” if he said those words to you? Or would you LOGICALLY understand that Jacob was saying, “I have EXISTED/LIVED with you for twenty years now”?
What about this one:
John 14:9
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?Would you ask Jesus WHAT he had been among you? Or would you understand that Jesus was saying he had been EXISTING among you?
You and Kerwin do the same thing, Gene. You KNOW in your heart of hearts that the statement, “I think, therefore I am” means, “I think, therefore I EXIST” – but you must PRETEND that you don't understand this simple concept.
I don't know why you guys do that. It only makes you seem unintelligent, as if you can't understand simple English word phrases that any 5 year old could understand.
Gene, are you SERIOUSLY not intelligent enough to understand that “I am tired” means someone is tired, and “I am” means someone EXISTS?
Mike………..He added with you in his statement. So that defined what he meant , not just the words I have been If i were to try to draw a conclusion of that sentence with out the word “with You” is would be exactly what you are doing with the statement Jesus make when he said “ before Abraham I am that statement still lack saying what he was before Abraham, can't you see that brother. When ever we add any kind of meaning to a text that is called forcing the text IMO
peace and love to you and yours Mike…………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 28 2012,12:46) Mike………..He added with you in his statement.
And how does that change what the words “I have been” mean?Are you saying that it DOESN'T mean “I have EXISTED with you……..”?
If not, then what?
Mike,
“Before Fred is to think, I am” has an inferred “to think” as it the subject of the conversation.
Many think Jesus said before Abraham was born, I am; though that infers Jesus is born. Others translate it to “was” or another past tense verb even though the same type of verb can indicate something occurring in the future.
It is also in a middle voice and so eliminates born or exist since it is an action Abraham performed or performs on himself where he shares in the result.
Here are some uses of the Aorist infinitive in the active voice.
Herod wants to kill you (Luke 13:31)
Don't think that I came to destroy the law (Matthew 5:17)
It is necessary for me to stay in your house (Luke 19:5)
Wasn’t it necessary for the Christ to suffer. . . ? (Luke 24:26)
As you see none of these are past tense words; though the last is speaking of a past event.
In short, with the wrong voice, Jesus is teaching us that he is to be made perfect before Abraham is to be made perfect.
I definitely require to learn more as the traditions of experts appear to be different.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2012,05:11) Wakeup…….He was re-quoting what i Quoted out of scriptures to him. I want to Know what is His Point he was making , sometime Pierre has a hard time letting us understand him becasue of the language barriers . I just want to know what the meant by what he wrote the is all> peace and love to you and yours Wakeup………………………………………………………………….gene
O.K. GeneBBut we must have patience with everything as you know.
wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 29 2012,07:22) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 28 2012,12:46) Mike………..He added with you in his statement.
And how does that change what the words “I have been” mean?Are you saying that it DOESN'T mean “I have EXISTED with you……..”?
If not, then what?
Mike……….It doesn't change the words, “i have been” at all, but by adding the words “with you” defines how he has been . Get it?No i am not saying it doesn't mean ” i have existed ” at all, but the word (WITH) define how or in what way He was there.
Mike can't you understand this Brother?
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ July 29 2012,19:25) Mike, “Before Fred is to think, I am” has an inferred “to think” as it the subject of the conversation.
Many think Jesus said before Abraham was born, I am; though that infers Jesus is born. Others translate it to “was” or another past tense verb even though the same type of verb can indicate something occurring in the future.
It is also in a middle voice and so eliminates born or exist since it is an action Abraham performed or performs on himself where he shares in the result.
Here are some uses of the Aorist infinitive in the active voice.
Herod wants to kill you (Luke 13:31)
Don't think that I came to destroy the law (Matthew 5:17)
It is necessary for me to stay in your house (Luke 19:5)
Wasn’t it necessary for the Christ to suffer. . . ? (Luke 24:26)
As you see none of these are past tense words; though the last is speaking of a past event.
In short, with the wrong voice, Jesus is teaching us that he is to be made perfect before Abraham is to be made perfect.
I definitely require to learn more as the traditions of experts appear to be different.
Kerwin…………..Good Point brother.peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2012,07:18) No i am not saying it doesn't mean ” i have existed ” at all, but the word (WITH) define how or in what way He was there. Mike can't you understand this Brother?
Yes Gene,I understand. When Jesus says, “I have been with you”, he means “I have EXISTED with you”.
We seem to be in agreement on this……… are we?
Quote (kerwin @ July 29 2012,02:25) In short, with the wrong voice, Jesus is teaching us that he is to be made perfect before Abraham is to be made perfect.
Kerwin,That entire post was nonsense and a diversion from the point of discussion.
Gene, look up John 8:58 in the Greek Interlinear. Here is what the last part says:
AMEN AMEN I AM SAYING TO YOU, BEFORE ABRAHAM TO COME INTO BEING, I AM
You told Kerwin, “Good point”. Could you tell me how it is a “good point” for Kerwin to conclude that Jesus is teaching “I am to be made perfect before Abraham is to be made perfect” from the Greek words as translated above?
Come on Kerwin!
How in the world do you get YOUR translation out of the Greek words of 8:58? Don't you feel even the least bit ashamed of yourself when you bulldoze the scriptures this way? You have come up with an interpretation that is IMPOSSIBLE to be reached from the Greek words we have to go on.
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