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Quote (t8 @ July 07 2012,15:26) Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2012,17:57) T8; Jesus was made with a human nature but that does not justify substituting that fact for the fact he chose to serve God. I assure you that not all humans willingly serve Jehovah. The inner human nature is the flesh nature as it falls short of the godly nature. It is the godly nature that compels one to humble themselves and take on the nature of a servant. The outer nature counts for nothing.
Jehovah is our Creator and thus he chose to make Jesus in the likeness of humanity and not in the likeness of the Messengers. His reason for that choice is that it is humans that Jesus aids and not Messengers.
Sorry I am not following you.What part of your post disproves that Jesus existed in the form of God or with divine nature, emptied himself and came as a man/being with human nature.
Nothing from what I can tell.
The scripture stands.
T8,I am more concerned that the teaching of this Scripture be retained than disproving your teaching of preexistence. Much of what you say about this Philippians 2 does not work within the context as its purpose as God's purpose for it is to teach us to be like minded with Christ who exists both in the form of God and the form of a servant.
The element order within the sentence can be construed to infer preexistence because “ginomai” has some meanings that do so.
Quote (kerwin @ July 08 2012,13:37) Jesus posed this question: Luke 20:44
King James Version (KJV)44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?
The answer is also in Scripture.
Romans 1:3
King James Version (KJV)3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
That is actually part of the answer to Jesus' question, Kerwin, but do you know why? Jesus is the son of David ONLY according to the flesh. But David would not call his son “my Lord”, and so there must be something else to the story. This is the part you deny – the part where, although Jesus was a branch of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, he also existed as the Root of David long before David even became flesh.This is what Jesus was trying to teach the Pharisees.
Quote (kerwin @ July 08 2012,13:37) If you are only go by the order of things in the sentence it does appear that Jesus chose to become a srvant before being ginomai in the likeness of humanity. One possible flaw to such reasoning is that Ginomai is a word with multiple meanings.
Praise be to Jehovah! I don't know that we'll ever get you to see what is so clear to us, but I give you loads of credit for being sincere enough to acknowledge that our understanding “appears to be reasonable”. (I joined what you recently said to t8 with what you just said to me to get that quote.)Now, if our understanding appears to be reasonable, and there are many scriptures that support that understanding, while there are NO scriptures that contradict it, why are you having such a hard time accepting the reasonable?
Quote (kerwin @ July 08 2012,13:46) God's purpose for it is to teach us to be like minded with Christ who exists both in the form of God and the form of a servant.
It doesn't teach that Jesus existed in the form of God AT THE SAME TIME he existed in the form of a servant. In fact, it teaches quite the opposite. It teaches that although Jesus WAS EXISTING in the form of God, he didn't cling to that good existence, but instead made himself of no account and TOOK ON the form of a servant by being made into a human being.The teaching is that we also be willing to walk away from any luxuries we have, if doing so will be to the benefit of others. This mind of Christ is echoed in Matthew 19:21…….
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
What Jesus did by leaving God's side to be made as a human would be like you giving up being a human to be made as a cockroach. And then, being found in appearance as a cockroach, you suffer humility among the other cockroaches for 33 years until you, a once powerful human being, are put to death by these puny cockroaches.
This is the sacrifice Jesus made, Kerwin. He came to dwell among what would be the equivalent of cockroaches to us, and to suffer humility, cruelty, and even death at the hands of those he used to be able to squash like a bug.
Kerwin, imagine the humility you would feel if you were about to fight some 3 year old girls, and unknown to those watching, God took away your strength so that everyone saw you, a full grown man, getting your butt kicked viciously by three year old girls. You would be a laughing stock. That is the humility Jesus, the second most powerful being in existence, suffered at the hand of puny human beings, for the sake of puny human beings.
This is the mind of Christ we are to have in us.
Mike,
Quote That is actually part of the answer to Jesus' question, Kerwin, but do you know why? Jesus is the son of David ONLY according to the flesh. But David would not call his son “my Lord”, and so there must be something else to the story. This is the part you deny – the part where, although Jesus was a branch of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, he also existed as the Root of David long before David even became flesh. The inferred pard of Jesus' teaching is that he is the Son of God through the Spirit; as his heart is superior to David's.
As for Jesus being the root of David, Jehovah promised David a son to sit on his throne forever and David believed. Jesus is spoken of in Eve's curse.
Quote Now, if our understanding appears to be reasonable, and there are many scriptures that support that understanding, while there are NO scriptures that contradict it, why are you having such a hard time accepting the reasonable? Appearances are deceptive but the Word of God wins through.
Kerwin, “root” refers to that which is first, and “branch” refers to that which comes after.
Jesus is both the Root AND the Branch of David. Why do you nonsensically try to pretend that both words mean “descendent”?
And it's truly sad that you can admit our understanding “appears reasonable”, but then use “appearances can be deceiving” to give you an “out” from believing the reasonable.
I will remind you that not only is our understanding “reasonable”, but it is supported by MANY scriptures, and refuted by NONE. Doesn't that also count for something?
Mike……….Any commentary will tell you that Jesus was talking about His origin Not some tricky wording as you assume it is. Jesus is also as David from the ROOT of JESSE , Need proof?
Isa 11:10….> And in that day there shall be a “root” of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Now Mike who was that “ROOT” was it not Jesus? Not there Jesus is called the root of Jesse, but you make what is said in revelation as meaning Jesus is the root of David . Jesus meant he was the Root and offspring of King David, Just as he said he was. It's all one thing meaning the decedent of King David. No mixed Meaning implied there,You just forcing the text to meet you dogmas of “PREEXISTENCE” brother.
peace and love to you…………………………………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 10 2012,08:50) Mike……….Any commentary will tell you that Jesus was talking about His origin Not some tricky wording as you assume it is. Jesus is also as David from the ROOT of JESSE , Need proof? Isa 11:10….> And in that day there shall be a “root” of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Now Mike who was that “ROOT” was it not Jesus? Not there Jesus is called the root of Jesse, but you make what is said in revelation as meaning Jesus is the root of David . Jesus meant he was the Root and offspring of King David, Just as he said he was. It's all one thing meaning the decedent of King David. No mixed Meaning implied there,You just forcing the text to meet you dogmas of “PREEXISTENCE” brother.
peace and love to you…………………………………………………………………gene
geneJn 3:10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
Jn 3:11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.if this is not clear I really don't know how it would be said better ;for a believer that is
Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2012,06:46) T8, I am more concerned that the teaching of this Scripture be retained than disproving your teaching of preexistence. Much of what you say about this Philippians 2 does not work within the context as its purpose as God's purpose for it is to teach us to be like minded with Christ who exists both in the form of God and the form of a servant.
The element order within the sentence can be construed to infer preexistence because “ginomai” has some meanings that do so.
Hi Kerwin,Excellent post! The more informed a person is
– the better “{a decision}” they can make.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ July 10 2012,01:50) Mike……….Any commentary will tell you that Jesus was talking about His origin Not some tricky wording as you assume it is. Jesus is also as David from the ROOT of JESSE , Need proof? Isa 11:10….> And in that day there shall be a “root” of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Now Mike who was that “ROOT” was it not Jesus? Not there Jesus is called the root of Jesse, but you make what is said in revelation as meaning Jesus is the root of David . Jesus meant he was the Root and offspring of King David, Just as he said he was. It's all one thing meaning the decedent of King David. No mixed Meaning implied there,You just forcing the text to meet you dogmas of “PREEXISTENCE” brother.
peace and love to you…………………………………………………………………gene
To All,Jesse means to exist. That means:
the God part will continue to exist.
Consider carefully these tie in verses:(Gal.2:20) “i am crucified with Christ:
nevertheless I live;” (Nahum 1:14)Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.orgMike,
Quote It doesn't teach that Jesus existed in the form of God AT THE SAME TIME he existed in the form of a servant. In fact, it teaches quite the opposite. It teaches that although Jesus WAS EXISTING in the form of God, he didn't cling to that good existence, but instead made himself of no account and TOOK ON the form of a servant by being made into a human being. Philippians 2
King James Version (KJV)6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:The verb “being” is present and yet had resulted in him choosing to take the form of a servant. ” Having been” is past tense. So it explicitly teaches Jesus is both in the form of God and the form of a servant at the same time.
Quote The teaching is that we also be willing to walk away from any luxuries we have, if doing so will be to the benefit of others. Matthew 19:21 is a type with a man specifically putting wealth before God, while a person that like minded with Christ will put nothing before God. Phillipians 2 is teaching more.
Philippians 2
King James Version (KJV)1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.Quote What Jesus did by leaving God's side to be made as a human would be like you giving up being a human to be made as a cockroach. And then, being found in appearance as a cockroach, you suffer humility among the other cockroaches for 33 years until you, a once powerful human being, are put to death by these puny cockroaches. This is the sacrifice Jesus made, Kerwin. He came to dwell among what would be the equivalent of cockroaches to us, and to suffer humility, cruelty, and even death at the hands of those he used to be able to squash like a bug.
Kerwin, imagine the humility you would feel if you were about to fight some 3 year old girls, and unknown to those watching, God took away your strength so that everyone saw you, a full grown man, getting your butt kicked viciously by three year old girls. You would be a laughing stock. That is the humility Jesus, the second most powerful being in existence, suffered at the hand of puny human beings, for the sake of puny human beings.
A godley mindset is the one Jesus demonstrated.
What you write is mainly speculation.
Matthew 11:28
King James Version (KJV)28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Luke 23:34
King James Version (KJV)34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
He does not see humanity as we see cockroaches nor was he concerned about being a figure of ridicule as he exists in the form of God.
To all;
Deuteronomy 29:18
King James Version (KJV)18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
What does root mean in this passage?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 09 2012,08:50) Isa 11:10….> And in that day there shall be a “root” of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isaiah 11:1
There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.Gene, does this scripture demonstrate that Jesus is the BRANCH of Jesse, which means he comes AFTER Jesse?
Isaiah 11:10
“And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious.”Gene, does this scripture demonstrate that Jesus is the ROOT of Jesse, which means he came BEFORE Jesse?
So tell me how those two scriptures don't coincide EXACTLY with this scripture:
Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2012,18:35) To all; Deuteronomy 29:18
King James Version (KJV)18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
What does root mean in this passage?
Deuteronomy 29:18 NET
Beware that the heart of no man, woman, clan, or tribe among you turns away from the Lord our God today to pursue and serve the gods of those nations; beware that there is among you no root producing poisonous and bitter fruit.It means “the start”, or “that which comes first”. In other words, make sure none of you are going to be the one who STARTS to worship other gods, causing those who come AFTER you to also worship them.
Quote (kerwin @ July 10 2012,18:35) To all; Deuteronomy 29:18
King James Version (KJV)18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
What does root mean in this passage?
kQuote What does root mean in this passage? origin ,from before ,from the past ,prior ,
what you think it means
Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2012,18:28) Philippians 2
King James Version (KJV)6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:The verb “being” is present and yet had resulted in him choosing to take the form of a servant. ” Having been” is past tense. So it explicitly teaches Jesus is both in the form of God and the form of a servant at the same time.
Let me try to help you, Kerwin. IF “existing in the form of God” is meant as a present, then Paul could not have been writing about Jesus' existence on earth, but must have been writing in present time about Jesus, RIGHT THEN, existing in the form of God.Do you think Paul was talking about the exalted Jesus being in the form of God? If not, then it is definitely used as a past tense.
I'll give you a make-shift example:
In 2006, Obama, seeing that he wasn't going to win the south, decided to campaign in Georgia after all.
Do you see how the verb is technically a present tense, but is describing an action Obama performed 6 years ago?
Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2012,07:07) Quote (kerwin @ July 10 2012,18:35) To all; Deuteronomy 29:18
King James Version (KJV)18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
What does root mean in this passage?
kQuote What does root mean in this passage? origin ,from before ,from the past ,prior ,
what you think it means
T;It is speaking of each member of the House of Israel being a root.They bear gall and wormwood.
What does the Root of the House of Jesse bear?
Quote (kerwin @ July 11 2012,01:05) Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2012,07:07) Quote (kerwin @ July 10 2012,18:35) To all; Deuteronomy 29:18
King James Version (KJV)18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
What does root mean in this passage?
kQuote What does root mean in this passage? origin ,from before ,from the past ,prior ,
what you think it means
T;It is speaking of each member of the House of Israel being a root.They bear gall and wormwood.
What does the Root of the House of Jesse bear?
KNo it does not talk to Israel but to the offspring of it, and of the bad that some of them drag with them ,from of old ,
Mike,
The ongoing action “seeing” does not stop before the past action “decided” initiates. Instead the “seeing” results in the “decided”. In fact a wise candidate would continue to keep an eye on things on the ground just in case circumstances changed.
Philippians 2:6-7 tells us that Jesus was in the form of God when he saw equality with God a thing not to be strived for but instead emptied himself; and chose to take on the form of a servant. Just like President Obama seeing and making and decision at the same time, Jesus was in the form of God when he took on the form of a servant.
It does not work how you hope it does as 1) Jesus is not said to have the form of an angel, 2) The outward form leads no one to see equality with God as thing not be strove for, 3) Angels have the inner form of a servant.
Quote (kerwin @ July 12 2012,23:03) Mike, The ongoing action “seeing” does not stop before the past action “decided” initiates. Instead the “seeing” results in the “decided”. In fact a wise candidate would continue to keep an eye on things on the ground just in case circumstances changed.
Philippians 2:6-7 tells us that Jesus was in the form of God when he saw equality with God a thing not to be strived for but instead emptied himself; and chose to take on the form of a servant. Just like President Obama seeing and making and decision at the same time, Jesus was in the form of God when he took on the form of a servant.
It does not work how you hope it does as 1) Jesus is not said to have the form of an angel, 2) The outward form leads no one to see equality with God as thing not be strove for, 3) Angels have the inner form of a servant.
kerwindid you ever read the scriptures once
I start to wander.
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