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Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2012,22:00) I hold this interpretation is flawed even though Paul's choice of words make it seem reasonable. I am using it as an example of how false inferences can be drawn from a passage.
And so all I am really doing is quoting scripture. And thus I am not the one trying to change the meaning.T8;
If you believe you are only quoting Scriptures then you are deceived. You are interpreting those Scriptures as you seek to know them. The question you should be asking is whether that interpretation is from God or man.
I chose to use a false interpretation that we would both agree is false to reveal that an untruth can be gleaned from an apparent reasonable inference.
One that use the context of Philippians 2:5 is Jesus having the mind of God and therefore not desiring to be equal to God but emptied himself of that desire taking on the mind of a servant.
Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2012,18:52) T8; If you believe you are only quoting Scriptures then you are deceived. You are interpreting those Scriptures as you seek to know them. The question you should be asking is whether that interpretation is from God or man.
I chose to use a false interpretation that we would both agree is false to reveal that an untruth can be gleaned from an apparent reasonable inference.
One that use the context of Philippians 2:5 is Jesus having the mind of God and therefore not desiring to be equal to God but emptied himself of that desire taking on the mind of a servant.
Kerwin…………You have it right brother. Jesus had the mind of God and therefore His Natural while in the flesh on this earth , and laid it aside and took on the Nature of a servant. While at time of his earth existences , not some Preexist pas as T8 and Mike and others “ASSUME”. The past Paul was talking about was his earthly existence. He was not referencing anything before that time at all.peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2012,09:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2012,03:12) Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2012,02:00) I hold this interpretation is flawed even though Paul's choice of words make it seem reasonable. I am using it as an example of how false inferences can be drawn from a passage.
It not only seems reasonable, Kerwin, but it is supported by MANY other scriptures. So you must ask yourself what PERSONAL reason you have for determining that a “reasonable interpretation” is actually “flawed”.
Mike;Jesus has never had authority equal to Jehovah. He has always served Jehovah. That flawed interpretation may be held by those Trinitarians that hold that Jesus has equal authority to Jehovah. If you think it through carefully I am sure you will realize that you too hold it to be false.
The lesson of this passage is having the same mind-set as Christ and so replacing form with mind-set is more reasonable than using authority. It also goes with the words “thought it not robbery to be equal with God”.
Jesus having the same mindset as God thought it not robbery to be equal to God, emptied himself, taking on the mindset of a servant.
A servant has a mindset that is willing to serve and not be equal to God; and therefore meek towards God. Emptied himself therefore means to become meek.
That is what I have been brought to understand. T8 sees it different as he believes that Jesus was the nature of God and then emptied him self of that nature, taking on the the nature of humanity; not that of angels. He does this by applying the words of Hebrews 2:16 to the pattern set forth in Philippians 2:6-7; just as I applied the words of Philippians 2:5.
It seems T8 believes that Jesus was not originally either a human or an angel but was a Jehovah and then stopped being a Jehovah and became a human being and not an angel.
Kerwin……….Years ago i did an extensive search on the words ” thought it not robbery to be made equal with God”, it he should be rendered , “Thought not to rob God to make himself equal with him”.Another word Jesus never tried to make himself equal with God even though he had been given so much authority and power , but he took on the “attitude” or Nature of a Servant , you have it right on this brother. Paul was Just giving us an example of Jesus' Mindset in his relationship with God being fully Obedient to him, setting us an example of our relationship we should have also.
Philip 2:6-8, Has nothing to do with a Past earthly existence at all. Preexistences like their counter part Trinitarians are forcing the text to say what in fact is is not saying at all. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 04 2012,07:10) Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2012,09:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2012,03:12) Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2012,02:00) I hold this interpretation is flawed even though Paul's choice of words make it seem reasonable. I am using it as an example of how false inferences can be drawn from a passage.
It not only seems reasonable, Kerwin, but it is supported by MANY other scriptures. So you must ask yourself what PERSONAL reason you have for determining that a “reasonable interpretation” is actually “flawed”.
Mike;Jesus has never had authority equal to Jehovah. He has always served Jehovah. That flawed interpretation may be held by those Trinitarians that hold that Jesus has equal authority to Jehovah. If you think it through carefully I am sure you will realize that you too hold it to be false.
The lesson of this passage is having the same mind-set as Christ and so replacing form with mind-set is more reasonable than using authority. It also goes with the words “thought it not robbery to be equal with God”.
Jesus having the same mindset as God thought it not robbery to be equal to God, emptied himself, taking on the mindset of a servant.
A servant has a mindset that is willing to serve and not be equal to God; and therefore meek towards God. Emptied himself therefore means to become meek.
That is what I have been brought to understand. T8 sees it different as he believes that Jesus was the nature of God and then emptied him self of that nature, taking on the the nature of humanity; not that of angels. He does this by applying the words of Hebrews 2:16 to the pattern set forth in Philippians 2:6-7; just as I applied the words of Philippians 2:5.
It seems T8 believes that Jesus was not originally either a human or an angel but was a Jehovah and then stopped being a Jehovah and became a human being and not an angel.
Kerwin……….Years ago i did an extensive search on the word ” thought it not robbery to be made equal with God” it he should be rendered , “Thought not to rob God to make himself equal with him”.Another word Jesus never tried to make himself equal with God even thought he had been given so much authority and power , but he took on the attitude or Nature of a Servant , you have it right on this brother. Paul was Just giving us an example off Jesus Mindset in his relationship with God being fully Obedient to him setting us an example of our relationship we should have also.
Philip 2:6-8, Has nothing to do with a Past earthly existence at all. Preexistences like their counter part Trinitarians are forcing the text to say what in fact is is not saying at all. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
gene
what a pair of guy's you are,how can you interpret the words of God ,if not through his own scriptures ,it says 'your taught's are not my taught s say God ,
were are the scriptures to show that what we interpret is wrong??? you never did present one ,and if you do then you have to twisted to mean what you try to say ,this is not being truthful is it
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2012,05:26) I have no clue why you're even talking about “authority”. The Greek word “morphe” means “outward appearance of a person or thing”. Jesus was existing with an outward appearance like that of God when he was a spirit being, but then took on the the outward appearance of a lowly servant by being made into a human being. Humans are “a little lower than the angels”, right?
I'm just glad I got the chance to see your own words saying t8's interpretation of Phil 2 was “reasonable”. If you'd let go of your personal WISH for Jesus to have been exactly like you, you'd be able to see that not only is it very reasonable, but aligns with every other scripture in the Bible, while coming into contrast with absolutely none of them.
Mike;Morph is not restricted to just outside appearance despite what you have been led to believe. It has much the same use as reflection, image, or any other word that is a synonym.
Quote 3444 morphḗ – properly, form (outward expression) that embodies essential (inner) substance so that the form is in complete harmony with the inner essence. Do you believe that Jesus having the outward appearance of God saw equality with God as something not be grasped but emptied himself and took on the outward appearance of a servant? I do not believe that you do once you consider it as am of the belief that you believe God judges by the heart and not by the outward appearance.
The words are not “form of a human” but they are “form of a servant” and Angels and Humans are both servants. God is not. Unless you using a Trinitarian interpretation you are inferring that he emptied himself of the outward appearance of a higher servant just to take on the outward appearance of a lower servant.
Note: My source is here.
Kerwin,
Is “authority” a synonym of “outward appearance”?
And btw, the words are “was existing in the form of God”………………”emptied himself”………………………..”and was made into the likeness of a human being”.
Hi Mike, here is what Phil.2:7-8 actually says…
Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike;
I know that the English word “shape” can be used to describe authority and that certain experts state the ancient Greek word “morph” can be used as the outward expression that embodies an inner substance. I do not believe that Phillipians 2 is speaking of authority even though a litteral understanding of clauses “shape of God” and “shape of a servant” give that impression.
Jesus chose to be a servant and was created in the likeness of humanity. He did not choose to be a human but was made one by Jehovah.
Jesus being in the very form of Jehovah; saw equality with him as something not to be grasped but emptied himself taking on the form of a servant; and was made by Jehovah in the likeness of humanity.
It can be seen that Jehovah's mindset led Jesus to empty himself and take on the mindset of a servant.
Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,12:36) Hi Mike, here is what Phil.2:7-8 actually says… Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjwho is the “”himself “””???in that scripture
Good, then we agree that “authority” is not what is meant by the word “morphe” in Phil 2, and therefore shouldn't waste time discussing things that neither of us even believe.
You said, Jesus being in the very form of Jehovah; saw equality with him as something not to be grasped but emptied himself taking on the form of a servant; and was made by Jehovah in the likeness of humanity.
We seem to agree on this as well. Jesus was existing in the form of God, but emptied himself and was made by Jehovah in the likeness of a human being.
So how does this not speak of someone who was existing in one form, and then was made into a different one?
Actually Kerwin,
I have some better questions for you:
When was Jesus existing as something other than a human being so that he had to be (your words) “made by Jehovah in the likeness of humanity”?
And what was he existing as before he had to be “made by Jehovah in the likeness of humanity”?
Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2012,21:52) T8; If you believe you are only quoting Scriptures then you are deceived. You are interpreting those Scriptures as you seek to know them. The question you should be asking is whether that interpretation is from God or man.
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death —
even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.What can you say now. Scripture speaks for itself.
These are my words yes, but I have been given them.
I am not the author.
Not my problem if you deny what the author wrote.
You are the one trying to get around what these words say.
I just accept them because I also accept that I am a student.
And remember, before you post in haste, that you are arguing not against me with this.
So long as you are aware that you are arguing against the author.all
Phil 2:4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,what is Paul try to say ,or what is it that we can learn??
yes we can see that Paul believed that Christ existed way before he came down to earth has a man,
so what it mean wen Paul say ;;being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,let see it from the true perspective;Christ being the first of Gods creation ,the only creation made by God himself and so posses the nature of God ,;now Christ the son of God is ask to go down to earth and to give up and die there in a brutal way,;;think Christ could now call up his title and his high vesting nature ;to decline that request,and who would blame him
but HE DID NOT DO THAT ,WHY BECAUSE HIS FATHER ASK HIM TO DO IT ,AND SO HE DID;; but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,THIS SCRIPTURE SHOW THAT HE LEFT HIS GODLY NATURE(position) FOR A SERVANT NATURE(position) ,his servant nature means being a man
of cause NOT,THIS ONLY MEAN THAT HE SURRENDER HIMSELF TO WHAT HIS FATHER ASK AND SO BECAME A SERVANT TO HIS FATHER WILL (Christ has mention this many times )( if you would know Moses story you could understand this better)
what was their in for Christ
Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.yes the son of God find delight in mankind ,and so accept to save it
Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,10:21) Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,12:36) Hi Mike, here is what Phil.2:7-8 actually says… Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjwho is the “”himself “””???in that scripture
You don't know?Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,18:15) Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,10:21) Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,12:36) Hi Mike, here is what Phil.2:7-8 actually says… Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjwho is the “”himself “””???in that scripture
You don't know?
edjplease answer the question and so I will answer you again
Quote (t8 @ July 05 2012,06:00) Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2012,21:52) T8; If you believe you are only quoting Scriptures then you are deceived. You are interpreting those Scriptures as you seek to know them. The question you should be asking is whether that interpretation is from God or man.
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death —
even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.What can you say now. Scripture speaks for itself.
These are my words yes, but I have been given them.
I am not the author.
Not my problem if you deny what the author wrote.
You are the one trying to get around what these words say.
I just accept them because I also accept that I am a student.
And remember, before you post in haste, that you are arguing not against me with this.
So long as you are aware that you are arguing against the author.
T8;You are not seeing the words that you wrote but only what you have been told they mean.
Don't you know that there is a godly nature; of whom God is the originator?
Isn't a characteristic of that nature, to see equality with Jehovah as something not to be grasped but instead to humble yourself and take on the nature of a servant.
As a servant he was created by Jehovah in the likeness of humanity; and being found in that appearance he served by sacrificing himself on the cross. As a reward Jehovah gave his servant eternal life and exalted him to the highest place.
There is nothing about angels in this passage.
kerwin.
It is not really a mystery that he had the nature of God.
That is not what is being disputed.
It is the order that you are not seeing and you are not seeing because a predefined belief is getting in the way as they tend to do.The fact that you do not acknowledge the following proves this.
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.Any reasonable person can easily see that he was made in human likeness after he existed with the nature of God. Not only that, but we have a second witness in the verse that says that he emptied himself or made himself nothing between natures.
So nature of God/divine nature > emptied himself > nature of man/human nature.
You refuse to see this even though it is written for all to see. It is not my fault that you cannot see it. Maybe you have been made blind or maybe you are just obstinate. I am not going to say which, but it is certainly something.
You have zero change of talking me out of believing what the scripture says.
T8
in Phili;2 ; the word “nature ” stands for “position”(status) not for being built or created in, Paul seems to make the connection between Christ position and chose to become lower ,humbling himself to become vested in the flesh (little lower than the angels)
see Christ position was the closes to God and ;
Phil 2:4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!so it is the HUMILITY of Christ that Paul his talking about ,not his creation ,but the fact that he chose not his own interest but the one of men and the will of his father.
Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,11:21) Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,18:15) Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,10:21) Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,12:36) Hi Mike, here is what Phil.2:7-8 actually says… Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjwho is the “”himself “””???in that scripture
You don't know?
edjplease answer the question and so I will answer you again
“Himself” in Phil.2:7 refers to Jesus.
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