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Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,16:59) Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2012,05:16) Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2012,01:29) T; Jehovah states that he commanded the angels to pay homage to Jesus Christ as soon as he came into the world, Hebrews 1:6. I have heard of no angel he did not so instruct. I know the angels paid him homage when he was first revealed to the world, Luke 2:13-14. That was done at Bethlehem.
Jehovah prophesied that he would acknowledge his Son when setting the king on his holy hill, Psalms 2:6-7. The why is mentioned in Philippians 2:6-10.
K43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.XXL version
T,That is Deuteronomy 32.43 in the Greek but seems to be lacking in the Hebrew language manuscripts. Some believe Psalm 97.7 is a parallel passage.
Kdid I ask this answer from you ?? no
but you did not answer ,my questions ,so I will call you the verse man,
understanding = one verse
written word of God = one verse
if Kerwin does not know = you should know so do not askTo all…….Where it says in Revelation that Jesus gave it to His angel to give to the Churches, that Angel or “MESSENGER” was JOHN and the message was to the Churches . John gave the churches the words given him by Jesus who recieved it from God the FATHER who is SPIRIT, therefore it says to him that hears what the “SPIRIT” is saying to the Churches
peace and love to all………………………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2012,00:41) To all…….Where it says in Revelation that Jesus gave it to His angel to give to the Churches, that Angel or “MESSENGER” was JOHN and the message was to the Churches . John gave the churches the words given him by Jesus who recieved it from God the FATHER who is SPIRIT, therefore it says to him that hears what the “SPIRIT” is saying to the Churches peace and love to all………………………………………………………..gene
GeneB.Rev.1:10. I (John) was in the spirit on the Lords day and heard behind me A GREAT VOICE, as of a trumpet.
Verse 11. saying,I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA THE FIRST AND THE LAST: What thou seest,write in a book,and send it unto the seven churches which are in asia.—–
We know that the Alpha and Omega is Jesus.
Verse 17. —-FEAR NOT,I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST:Verse 18. I AM HE THAT LIVETH,AND WAS DEAD: and behold, I am alive for ever more; Amen; and have the keys of hell and death.
Is the ALPHA AND OMEGA just a spirit? or is he jesus?
I need an answer.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ June 30 2012,05:07) Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,09:45) To all; You all know it is written that the the World to come is not subject to Messengers. If you state Messengers means both man and angelic beings then you state it is not subject to Jesus Christ. You know that is not true. That leaves you with two possibilities which are:
1} The earth is subject to humanity and the creatures from the realm of spirit are called angels
2} The earth is subject to the creatures from the realm of spirit and humanity is called angels.
Elsewhere it is written that humanity is created a little lower than the Messengers. In that passage it can be seen that:
1} Jesus was created a human
2} The Messengers spoken of are not part of humanity.It is also written that instead of taking on the nature of Messengers he took on himself the seed of Abraham. This teaches us that:
1} the Messengers spoken of are not the seed of Abraham
2} Jesus Christ is the seed of Abraham
3} Jesus Christ does not have the nature of the Messengers spoken of.
Kerwin.What are the apostles? Have they not given us the message?
Are they not men?Example; the book of revelation:came from God,he gave it to Jesus, and Jesus gave it o the angel, and the angel gave it to John, and john gave it to the churches,and the churches give it to the world. From Jesus –to — the churches and the individual are all messengers.
Jesus/angels/men/ all are messengers.wakeup.
Wakeup;Is the Spirit the wind? Can you tell when the word wind means spirit and when it means wind?
I already pointed out why the context of several verses in Hebrews does not allow angel to equal human messenger. I also pointed out why it does not all angel to equal Jesus Christ when it speaks of the World not being subject to angels.
James 2:25 calls humans angels. Context reveals that fact.
Note: I corrected my mis-writting by replacing the word spirit with wind.
Quote (kerwin @ July 01 2012,22:12) Quote (Wakeup @ June 30 2012,05:07) Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,09:45) To all; You all know it is written that the the World to come is not subject to Messengers. If you state Messengers means both man and angelic beings then you state it is not subject to Jesus Christ. You know that is not true. That leaves you with two possibilities which are:
1} The earth is subject to humanity and the creatures from the realm of spirit are called angels
2} The earth is subject to the creatures from the realm of spirit and humanity is called angels.
Elsewhere it is written that humanity is created a little lower than the Messengers. In that passage it can be seen that:
1} Jesus was created a human
2} The Messengers spoken of are not part of humanity.It is also written that instead of taking on the nature of Messengers he took on himself the seed of Abraham. This teaches us that:
1} the Messengers spoken of are not the seed of Abraham
2} Jesus Christ is the seed of Abraham
3} Jesus Christ does not have the nature of the Messengers spoken of.
Kerwin.What are the apostles? Have they not given us the message?
Are they not men?Example; the book of revelation:came from God,he gave it to Jesus, and Jesus gave it o the angel, and the angel gave it to John, and john gave it to the churches,and the churches give it to the world. From Jesus –to — the churches and the individual are all messengers.
Jesus/angels/men/ all are messengers.wakeup.
Wakeup;Is the Spirit the wind? Can you tell when the word wind means spirit and when it means spirit?
I already pointed out why the context of several verses in Hebrews does not allow angel to equal human messenger. I also pointed out why it does not all angel to equal Jesus Christ when it speaks of the World not being subject to angels.
James 2:25 calls humans angels. Context reveals that fact.
KYou have ask me that question,as well,but I am start to wander what is your game you are playing,
You do not have insight or scriptures understanding ,beside what is commonly known to all,
You have rejected the truth in scriptures over your own desire and believe,
It seems to me that you have a double mind ,see James :…
T;
I am not blown to and fro by the winds of doctrine but I do like to hear reason in your responses. I am already conceding the word angel means messenger and that scouts, prophets, teachers, ect. can be called messenger.
I am just pointing out that Jesus was not created with the nature of a creature of the realm of spirit; nor will the World to come be subject to anyone that is; as Hebrews teaches us that it will not.
The World to come will not be subject to “the angel of the Lord” spoken of in Exodus 3:2 as appearing in a flame of fire out of the burning bush as the World to Come is not subject to such beings. “The angel of the Lord” who spoke from the heaven to Abraham in Genesis 22:15 is not Jesus because God did not speak through his Son at that time but is only speaking through him in these last days.
Why do you seem to have difficulties understanding these simple things?
T;
I apologize for writing the word spirit as opposed to the correct word wind in my earlier post. I have now corrected that error and put a note to that effect.
Quote (kerwin @ July 01 2012,23:06) T; I am not blown to and fro by the winds of doctrine but I do like to hear reason in your responses. I am already conceding the word angel means messenger and that scouts, prophets, teachers, ect. can be called messenger.
I am just pointing out that Jesus was not created with the nature of a creature of the realm of spirit; nor will the World to come be subject to anyone that is; as Hebrews teaches us that it will not.
The World to come will not be subject to “the angel of the Lord” spoken of in Exodus 3:2 as appearing in a flame of fire out of the burning bush as the World to Come is not subject to such beings. “The angel of the Lord” who spoke from the heaven to Abraham in Genesis 22:15 is not Jesus because God did not speak through his Son at that time but is only speaking through him in these last days.
Why do you seem to have difficulties understanding these simple things?
KI do not understand lies or mis interpretation ,
They both have no meaning in Gods truthK
Christ was created the first Col:1;15-20
And sins his father his spirit he his part of that spirit realm,Also see Pro:8;22-31
And John1:14
And many others list to long ,but see topic preexistance of Christ,
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2012,00:41) To all…….Where it says in Revelation that Jesus gave it to His angel to give to the Churches, that Angel or “MESSENGER” was JOHN and the message was to the Churches . John gave the churches the words given him by Jesus who recieved it from God the FATHER who is SPIRIT, therefore it says to him that hears what the “SPIRIT” is saying to the Churches peace and love to all………………………………………………………..gene
GeneB.You need to read Rev.19:10. and 22:8.9.
These angels are real creatures,not just the spirit of john.wakeup.
Wakeup…………I never said Angels weren't “real” creatures. Look up the word angels and it can imply an angel “being” or a human “being” as brought out here already , and either can be “messengers” or Angles of GOD. You are forcing what i have written to say what i have not said and it appears you are doing that with scriptures also brother or sister? Lets keep thing in context of what is actually written no where have i said the “SPIRIT of JOHN”. The Spirit is GOD , and (IT) is the ALPHA and OMEGA, Not Jesus as you presume it is saying. Remember it say the source of Revelation is from GOD not Jesus, remember it is what “what God gave Jesus to show unto his servants not what Jesus gave unto his servants.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………gene
Quote (terraricca @ July 01 2012,12:08) K Christ was created the first Col:1;15-20
And sins his father his spirit he his part of that spirit realm,Also see Pro:8;22-31
And John1:14
And many others list to long ,but see topic preexistance of Christ,
T;Your chosen interpretations infers that
1} The World to Come is subject to creatures of the realms of heaven.
2} Jesus Anointed took on the nature of a creature of the heavenly realms.
3} Jesus was created superior to creatures of the heavenly realms.
This cannot be as the Writings do not conflict with one another.
Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2012,21:19) Quote (terraricca @ July 01 2012,12:08) K Christ was created the first Col:1;15-20
And sins his father his spirit he his part of that spirit realm,Also see Pro:8;22-31
And John1:14
And many others list to long ,but see topic preexistance of Christ,
T;Your chosen interpretations infers that
1} The World to Come is subject to creatures of the realms of heaven.
2} Jesus Anointed took on the nature of a creature of the heavenly realms.
3} Jesus was created superior to creatures of the heavenly realms.
This cannot be as the Writings do not conflict with one another.
KQuote T; Your chosen interpretations infers that
1} The World to Come is subject to creatures of the realms of heaven.
2} Jesus Anointed took on the nature of a creature of the heavenly realms.
3} Jesus was created superior to creatures of the heavenly realms.
This cannot be as the Writings do not conflict with one another.
could you produce the scriptures for your believe
Quote 2} Jesus Anointed took on the nature of a creature of the heavenly realms.
scriptures please?Quote 3} Jesus was created superior to creatures of the heavenly realms. this is true he his a god ,John 1;1 and Col 1;15-16 and Prov;8;22;23
Quote 1} The World to Come is subject to creatures of the realms of heaven. scriptures please
Quote This cannot be as the Writings do not conflict with one another. you are what you are ,you have not proving anything and or disproving anything ,so you are a double minded person. not good.
Quote (terraricca @ July 01 2012,12:08) K Christ was created the first Col:1;15-20
And sins his father his spirit he his part of that spirit realm,Also see Pro:8;22-31
And John1:14
And many others list to long ,but see topic preexistance of Christ,
T;Jesus Anointed did not take on the nature of a creature of the realms of heaven. Colossians 1:15 does not contradict that, not does it contradict the fact he took on the seed of Abraham.
Jesus is the firstborn of creation who did not take on the nature of angel, but has taken on the seed of Abraham. He was also made a little lower than the angels; then later elevated above them. The World to Come is subject to him, but not to angels. Angels give homage to him.
Pro:8;22-31 is speaking of Wisdom and addressing her as a female. Jesus calls himself and John the Baptist her children, Matthew 11:17.
John 1:14 is speaking of the Word of God and addressing him as a male.
Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2012,17:58) Jesus is the firstborn of creation who did not take on the nature of angel, but has taken on the seed of Abraham. He was also made a little lower than the angels; then later elevated above them.
Correct. He did not take on the nature of angels.
Rather he existed in the form of God, or the nature of God, emptied himself, and took on the form of man or the nature of man. Now he is back in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 02 2012,00:33) Wakeup…………I never said Angels weren't “real” creatures. Look up the word angels and it can imply an angel “being” or a human “being” as brought out here already , and either can be “messengers” or Angles of GOD. You are forcing what i have written to say what i have not said and it appears you are doing that with scriptures also brother or sister? Lets keep thing in context of what is actually written no where have i said the “SPIRIT of JOHN”. The Spirit is GOD , and (IT) is the ALPHA and OMEGA, Not Jesus as you presume it is saying. Remember it say the source of Revelation is from GOD not Jesus, remember it is what “what God gave Jesus to show unto his servants not what Jesus gave unto his servants. peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………gene
Gene B.You obviously are still confused about Jesus,who he really is.
God said '' I am the Lord and beside me there is no saviour.
First you must sort this out before we can discuss any further.To know Jesus is discovering a great mystery,and I know that you have not reached this level yet.
———————————————————-
An angel of God is not human: agree.
An angel can be send down with a message. agree.
A human is not a spirit angel. agree
But a human can also be send by God with a message. Agree.So what ever is send by God with a message is a messenger.Agree.
But the angels of God are all messengers.(that is their profession.).Going up and down to earth with messages to mankind.
Not all humans are messengers,only some.
—————————————————You said: the spirit is God and it is the alpha and omega;
not jesus as you persume it is saying.
——————————————————–
Let me quote those scriptures once more:
Rev.1:18. I am he THAT LIVED AND WAS DEAD(Jesus)—-(THE SIPRIT OF GOD WAS DEAD??)is this what you are saying?Rev.22:12 And behold I (jesus) come quickly; AND MY REWARD IS WITH ME,to give every man according as his work shall be.THE SAME ALPHA AND OMEGA IS COMING.
Rev22:13. I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA (THE SAME JESUS SPEAKING) the beginning and the end.
The ALPHA AND OMEGA is coming with his reward.
The first and the last is coming with his reward.
The first and the last was dead and is alive fore ever more.wakeup.
Quote (t8 @ July 02 2012,10:41) Correct. He did not take on the nature of angels.
Rather he existed in the form of God, or the nature of God, emptied himself, and took on the form of man or the nature of man. Now he is back in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.
T8;Your interpretation Philippians 2 is based on what you believe the words infer, but do they?
Here is an interpretation based on the clause “form of a servant” and so inferring “form of God” is speaking of his authority.
Jesus Anointed = form of God (not form of servant) – form of God = form of servant (not form of God)
Are these words speaking of authority?
Has Jesus Anointed ever had the authority of God?I hold this interpretation is flawed even though Paul's choice of words make it seem reasonable. I am using it as an example of how false inferences can be drawn from a passage.
Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2012,02:00) I hold this interpretation is flawed even though Paul's choice of words make it seem reasonable. I am using it as an example of how false inferences can be drawn from a passage.
It not only seems reasonable, Kerwin, but it is supported by MANY other scriptures. So you must ask yourself what PERSONAL reason you have for determining that a “reasonable interpretation” is actually “flawed”.Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2012,03:12) Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2012,02:00) I hold this interpretation is flawed even though Paul's choice of words make it seem reasonable. I am using it as an example of how false inferences can be drawn from a passage.
It not only seems reasonable, Kerwin, but it is supported by MANY other scriptures. So you must ask yourself what PERSONAL reason you have for determining that a “reasonable interpretation” is actually “flawed”.
Mike;Jesus has never had authority equal to Jehovah. He has always served Jehovah. That flawed interpretation may be held by those Trinitarians that hold that Jesus has equal authority to Jehovah. If you think it through carefully I am sure you will realize that you too hold it to be false.
The lesson of this passage is having the same mind-set as Christ and so replacing form with mind-set is more reasonable than using authority. It also goes with the words “thought it not robbery to be equal with God”.
Jesus having the same mindset as God thought it not robbery to be equal to God, emptied himself, taking on the mindset of a servant.
A servant has a mindset that is willing to serve and not be equal to God; and therefore meek towards God. Emptied himself therefore means to become meek.
That is what I have been brought to understand. T8 sees it different as he believes that Jesus was the nature of God and then emptied him self of that nature, taking on the the nature of humanity; not that of angels. He does this by applying the words of Hebrews 2:16 to the pattern set forth in Philippians 2:6-7; just as I applied the words of Philippians 2:5.
It seems T8 believes that Jesus was not originally either a human or an angel but was a Jehovah and then stopped being a Jehovah and became a human being and not an angel.
I have no clue why you're even talking about “authority”. The Greek word “morphe” means “outward appearance of a person or thing”.
Jesus was existing with an outward appearance like that of God when he was a spirit being, but then took on the the outward appearance of a lowly servant by being made into a human being. Humans are “a little lower than the angels”, right?
I'm just glad I got the chance to see your own words saying t8's interpretation of Phil 2 was “reasonable”. If you'd let go of your personal WISH for Jesus to have been exactly like you, you'd be able to see that not only is it very reasonable, but aligns with every other scripture in the Bible, while coming into contrast with absolutely none of them.
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