- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2012,02:35) Hi,
Why do folk theorise about the roles of servant vessels when it is the work of the Spirit of God that is relevant?
Nick;As you say; the Spirit is the chief messenger; as all messengers of God; whether angel, human, or animal; bears witness as they are carried along by the Spirit.
Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2012,15:52) Quote (terraricca @ June 22 2012,20:12) Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2012,01:24) To all; It is written that the covenant of Moses was given through beings from the spirit realms. The covenant of the Spirit is superior to that. Jesus, a human, was created a little lower than the beings from heaven and then elevated above them.
KSo what his given from Angels his lower than what has been given from a man
?
T;Humanity was given rule of the world while angels serve in the heavenly courts of God. Jesus originally created as one of those that ruled the earth but has now been appointed as he that rules both the heavenly courts and the world.
As you say; God chose to elevate a human being above the angels; for he chose to declare him as his chief son by whom all others children, whether in heaven and on earth, come to him.
KSee that's we're you have a problem ,because NO MAN CAN SAVE OR PAY THE PRICE FOR ADAM SIN,
This is why scriptures says that Christ ,the son of God came down to give up volontarly his live as a form of man so that a perfect and without sin or blamish can be sacrificed ,so you do not believe this ,and yet this is what the entire scriptures is all about..
So you and I are well into opposed corners.
Hi T,
Where does it say he took the FORM of man?
Tradition still rules your mind.That is why you always find yourself in the opposite corner
Hi,
More speculation from another thread.k4c
“Many Trinitarians teach that Jesus is not Michael but then they go on to say the Jesus is the Angel of the Lord in the OT. I believe this is true but the Angel of the Lord is His title in the OT not His name. The name of the Angle of the Lord in the OT is Michael and Jesus in the NT.
In reading Jude 1:9 I find Michael in some kind of struggle with the devil over the body of Moses.
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
As I read these words I found it interesting that there is no mention of this battle between Michael and the Devil over Moses’ body anywhere in the OT as a matter of fact no one even knows where Yahweh buried Moses' body.
Deuteronomy 34:5-6 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
With this in mind I want to look at Jude 1:9 again in light of Moses body. The word (body) can also mean slave, servant or family. This tells me that Michael could have been disputing over Moses servant not Moses’ physical body.
Where in the bible do we have a dispute over Moses' servant?
It's found in Zechariah 3:1-4 where the Angel of the Lord is disputing with Satan over Joshua the high priest. The high priest Joshua was of Moses family through Aaron and also of the high priesthood of Aaron making him a servant in the temple. The high priest servant hood came through Moses, which would make Joshua a servant of Moses.
Lets compare what’s written in Jude to what’s written in Zechariah and you will see that this dispute Jude was referring to was over Moses’ servant and is found in Zechariah. You will also see that the Angel of the Lord and Michael are one in the same.
Zechariah 3:1-4 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
In Jude we have Michael disputing with the devil over Moses' servant but in Zechariah 3:1-4 we have the Angel of the Lord disputing with Satan over Moses' servant. The name Michael and the Angel of the Lord are referring to the same person in the same way the name Satan and the Devil are referring to the same person.
Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan…
In Jude, Michael says to the devil, “The Lord rebuke you.”
In Zechariah the Angel of the Lord says to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you.”
In both these cases we have a dispute over Joshua's filthy garments and how Joshua was one who was plucked out of the fire.
Now look at Jude 23-25.
Jude 1:23-25 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Michael and the Angel of the Lord are one in the same just as Satan and the Devil are one in the same.
The Angel of the Lord is called Wonderful.
Judges 13:18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?''
Jesus shall be called Wonderful.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful…
Notice, He shall be called Wonderful because He is not yet born.
Jesus, Michael and the Angel of the Lord are one and the same. Just like Satan, serpent and devil are one and the same. “
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2012,22:42) Hi T,
Where does it say he took the FORM of man?
Tradition still rules your mind.That is why you always find yourself in the opposite corner
N
truth always find his way in the opposite corner ,first Christ then his disciples,then those who stand for his name ,Nick,you know that the son of God his the WORD OF GOD,and that he came down and was made a little lower than the angels and became the sacrifice for our redemption,
Hi T,
You should not seek to be opposite.
The gift of life he gave is not accepted by most who know about his sacrifice.Eternal life is IN the Son.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2012,23:10) Hi T,
You should not seek to be opposite.
The gift of life he gave is not accepted by most who know about his sacrifice.Eternal life is IN the Son.
Nwith the son ,by being in the faith of the son
I do not seek to be on the opposite ,it just happen
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2012,23:52) Hi T,
Knowing what the Son knows just gives us less excuse for not obeying.
Nknowing is not enough,we have to practice,love can not work in a by stander
Regarding the fact that scripture states that men and heavenly beings are referred as malak/angels/messengers, we put Nick on the Hot Seat to get some answers. It appears to be sorted now, although Nick could come back with some additional facts that we could look at. As it stands now, it has been proven that indeed men too can be called malak/angels/messengers.
See the Hot Seat discussion that pertains to this.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2012,00:57) Hi ,
Angels are ministering spirits to the saved.[heb1]
They are not the men they minister to.
NPaul means that those spirits are Angel beings that are attend to the service of those that are saved,or walk in the way of Gods righteousness ,those Angels see more than men can see .
Because we have established the fact that men can be called malak.angels/messengers, this does keep open the possibility that the Angel of the LORD is none other than Jesus Christ before he came as a man.Here is some circumstantial evidence.
- Both are called Wonderful
- The Angel of the LORD was always seen as different and special when he appeared in the company of other angels.
- Those who saw the Angel of the LORD often described the experience as seeing God. This fits nicely with Jesus being the first born of all creation and the image of the invisible God.
- Jesus existed in the form of God before he emptied himself and took on the form of man. What is the form of God? Spirit. And thus Jesus could well have been a spirit being before becoming a flesh being like us.Also, from what I can tell, THE angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is in the flesh. Yes it mentions AN angel of the LORD, but that would make perfect sense that angels would give messages before, during, and after Jesus coming in the flesh.
Hi T8,
I'm not satisfied you've proven what you set out to. Let me
explain what I mean. If the Greek word or the Hebrew equivalent
is used as an adjective when referring to people, then you have not proved
your case. Only if it is used as a noun. Looking forward to your further investigation.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ June 26 2012,19:57) Hi T8, I'm not satisfied you've proven what you set out to. Let me
explain what I mean. If the Greek word or the Hebrew equivalent
is used as an adjective when referring to people, then you have not proved
your case. Only if it is used as a noun. Looking forward to your further investigation.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org?Quote (t8 @ June 26 2012,07:42) Because we have established the fact that men can be called malak.angels/messengers, this does keep open the possibility that the Angel of the LORD is none other than Jesus Christ before he came as a man. Here is some circumstantial evidence.
- Both are called Wonderful
- The Angel of the LORD was always seen as different and special when he appeared in the company of other angels.
- Those who saw the Angel of the LORD often described the experience as seeing God. This fits nicely with Jesus being the first born of all creation and the image of the invisible God.
- Jesus existed in the form of God before he emptied himself and took on the form of man. What is the form of God? Spirit. And thus Jesus could well have been a spirit being before becoming a flesh being like us.
Also, from what I can tell, THE angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is in the flesh. Yes it mentions AN angel of the LORD, but that would make perfect sense that angels would give messages before, during, and after Jesus coming in the flesh.
T8;I am mystified by your argument which is that those that are called messengers may be humans instead of denizens of the realms of Spirit as it does not lead to proving Jesus has ever been anything other than a human being.
We are taught that the World to Come is not subject to beings from the realm of Spirit, Hebrews 2:5. We are also taught that Jesus has been a Messenger of God to humanity only in these last days, Hebrews 1:2.
The form of God is love, 1 John 4:16.
Quote (kerwin @ June 26 2012,21:38) Quote (t8 @ June 26 2012,07:42) Because we have established the fact that men can be called malak.angels/messengers, this does keep open the possibility that the Angel of the LORD is none other than Jesus Christ before he came as a man. Here is some circumstantial evidence.
- Both are called Wonderful
- The Angel of the LORD was always seen as different and special when he appeared in the company of other angels.
- Those who saw the Angel of the LORD often described the experience as seeing God. This fits nicely with Jesus being the first born of all creation and the image of the invisible God.
- Jesus existed in the form of God before he emptied himself and took on the form of man. What is the form of God? Spirit. And thus Jesus could well have been a spirit being before becoming a flesh being like us.
Also, from what I can tell, THE angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is in the flesh. Yes it mentions AN angel of the LORD, but that would make perfect sense that angels would give messages before, during, and after Jesus coming in the flesh.
T8;I am mystified by your argument which is that those that are called messengers may be humans instead of denizens of the realms of Spirit as it does not lead to proving Jesus has ever been anything other than a human being.
We are taught that the World to Come is not subject to beings from the realm of Spirit, Hebrews 2:5. We are also taught that Jesus has been a Messenger of God to humanity only in these last days, Hebrews 1:2.
The form of God is love, 1 John 4:16.
KQuote The form of God is love, 1 John 4:16. 1Jn 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.
1Jn 4:16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.
1Jn 4:17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him.I do not see what you see and understand ,could you show it to me
Quote (kerwin @ June 26 2012,21:38) Quote (t8 @ June 26 2012,07:42) Because we have established the fact that men can be called malak.angels/messengers, this does keep open the possibility that the Angel of the LORD is none other than Jesus Christ before he came as a man. Here is some circumstantial evidence.
- Both are called Wonderful
- The Angel of the LORD was always seen as different and special when he appeared in the company of other angels.
- Those who saw the Angel of the LORD often described the experience as seeing God. This fits nicely with Jesus being the first born of all creation and the image of the invisible God.
- Jesus existed in the form of God before he emptied himself and took on the form of man. What is the form of God? Spirit. And thus Jesus could well have been a spirit being before becoming a flesh being like us.
Also, from what I can tell, THE angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is in the flesh. Yes it mentions AN angel of the LORD, but that would make perfect sense that angels would give messages before, during, and after Jesus coming in the flesh.
T8;I am mystified by your argument which is that those that are called messengers may be humans instead of denizens of the realms of Spirit as it does not lead to proving Jesus has ever been anything other than a human being.
We are taught that the World to Come is not subject to beings from the realm of Spirit, Hebrews 2:5. We are also taught that Jesus has been a Messenger of God to humanity only in these last days, Hebrews 1:2.
The form of God is love, 1 John 4:16.
KQuote We are taught that the World to Come is not subject to beings from the realm of Spirit, Hebrews 2:5 Heb 2:5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.
Heb 2:6 But there is a place where someone has testified:
“What is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
Heb 2:7 You made him a little lower than the angels;
you crowned him with glory and honor
Heb 2:8 and put everything under his feet.”In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.
so Christ to whom God make all under him his not from the spirit world
were is Christ now are you hiding him in your home ???is the throne of God next door to you ???because that s were Christ is sitting on,Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Heb 1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father’” ?Quote We are also taught that Jesus has been a Messenger of God to humanity only in these last days, Hebrews 1:2. is Paul not ratter talk about Christ preexistence and son ship
and his status higher than Angels
YOU SHOULD START TO USE THE ” I” INSTEAD OF “WE” BECAUSE I FOR SURE HAVE NEVER BEEN TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURES LIKE YOU.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
