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Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 19 2010,16:20) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 19 2010,22:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2010,22:56) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 18 2010,09:38) Alpha and Omega could apply to him along with “first and last” and “beginning and end”. What do people gain by belittling God and give him these “titles”?
All three of these “titles” deal with “time” which God is beyond. God exists and is not bound by our limitations of time.
God has no beginning.
God is the ONLY. Why compare Him to the first or last?And funniest yet, WHY the Greek “title” Alpha and Omega for the HEBREW God?
The Professor
Hi David,Funny avatar!
Who is that? The quantum leap guy?God says this about Himself. No one attributes this to Him. And we know it's him because in one instance, He add “the Almighty”.
And what it means in my humble opinion is that the was nothing or no one before Him, and nothing or no one will ever exist after Him.
He is the beginning of everything we know and understand, and none of us will ever “outlive” him.
God isn't just God of the Hebrews. He never was. He is everyone's God whether they know it or not. But I get the joke.
mike
Thanks Mike,Yep, that's the guy. My daughter has had a crush on him for ages and she thinks I look a bit like him….maybe when I was younger.
I think that they really wanted to piss off the Jews so they added this.
The Almighty I get, but comparing Him with others or giving Him a beginning or end won't cut it in my book.
Even the He who is, who was and who is to come goes along with God EXISTS concept, and is separate from the Holy Spirit and Jesus.
The Professor
hi Davidfuni understand this like;
first GOD is the beginning of all he is the one who start with Christ to create ;so written in John;
but he also is the end ;this is also scriptural ,wen Paul says “and then at the end Christ himself turn all things to God so that God can be all in all”
but it is also true with Christ;he is the first of all creation,and he is also the one at the end close all things wen his mission is finished he is the last in all creation to close the door.
so there is no contradiction to apply those therm to both God and Christ..
Pierre
Terrica, before creation there was only God.After creation, there will only be God and his children.
If we ever come to a point where we no longer can sustain life for whatever reason…there will still, only be God.
———
Christ was there before creation.
So if before creation there was only God…then christ so too is God not seperate from YHVH the father, but FROM YHVH the Father.
———-
The reason there is a distinction is because, Christ is the reflection of YHVH.
The reflection of God is God.
Just like the reflection of you, is you.
It isn't literally you, but it is a reflection OF you.
———-
The same with Christ.
He is a reflection of YHVH, which means he isn't literally YHVH but he is a reflection OF YHVH.
———–
If YHVH always existed…so did christ, for his reflection always reflected himself.
If YHVH will always exist…so too will his reflection.
and when I say reflection, it's synonymous with
Image, revelation, perception, knowability.
————
This is the true meaning of Christ being Alpha and Omega along with YHVH himself.
————
Your explaination is lacking, and limited to creation.
It's almost like saying, christ wouldn't exist if creation didn't…
but you failt to realize, that he already did exist BEFORE creation.
————
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 20 2010,02:49) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 19 2010,16:20) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 19 2010,22:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2010,22:56) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 18 2010,09:38) Alpha and Omega could apply to him along with “first and last” and “beginning and end”. What do people gain by belittling God and give him these “titles”?
All three of these “titles” deal with “time” which God is beyond. God exists and is not bound by our limitations of time.
God has no beginning.
God is the ONLY. Why compare Him to the first or last?And funniest yet, WHY the Greek “title” Alpha and Omega for the HEBREW God?
The Professor
Hi David,Funny avatar!
Who is that? The quantum leap guy?God says this about Himself. No one attributes this to Him. And we know it's him because in one instance, He add “the Almighty”.
And what it means in my humble opinion is that the was nothing or no one before Him, and nothing or no one will ever exist after Him.
He is the beginning of everything we know and understand, and none of us will ever “outlive” him.
God isn't just God of the Hebrews. He never was. He is everyone's God whether they know it or not. But I get the joke.
mike
Thanks Mike,Yep, that's the guy. My daughter has had a crush on him for ages and she thinks I look a bit like him….maybe when I was younger.
I think that they really wanted to piss off the Jews so they added this.
The Almighty I get, but comparing Him with others or giving Him a beginning or end won't cut it in my book.
Even the He who is, who was and who is to come goes along with God EXISTS concept, and is separate from the Holy Spirit and Jesus.
The Professor
hi Davidfuni understand this like;
first GOD is the beginning of all he is the one who start with Christ to create ;so written in John;
but he also is the end ;this is also scriptural ,wen Paul says “and then at the end Christ himself turn all things to God so that God can be all in all”
but it is also true with Christ;he is the first of all creation,and he is also the one at the end close all things wen his mission is finished he is the last in all creation to close the door.
so there is no contradiction to apply those therm to both God and Christ..
Pierre
Terrica, before creation there was only God.After creation, there will only be God and his children.
If we ever come to a point where we no longer can sustain life for whatever reason…there will still, only be God.
———
Christ was there before creation.
So if before creation there was only God…then christ so too is God not seperate from YHVH the father, but FROM YHVH the Father.
———-
The reason there is a distinction is because, Christ is the reflection of YHVH.
The reflection of God is God.
Just like the reflection of you, is you.
It isn't literally you, but it is a reflection OF you.
———-
The same with Christ.
He is a reflection of YHVH, which means he isn't literally YHVH but he is a reflection OF YHVH.
———–
If YHVH always existed…so did christ, for his reflection always reflected himself.
If YHVH will always exist…so too will his reflection.
and when I say reflection, it's synonymous with
Image, revelation, perception, knowability.
————
This is the true meaning of Christ being Alpha and Omega along with YHVH himself.
————
Your explaination is lacking, and limited to creation.
It's almost like saying, christ wouldn't exist if creation didn't…
but you failt to realize, that he already did exist BEFORE creation.
————
RMwhere in scriptures it say this ? ;but you fail to realize, that he already did exist BEFORE creation,
and what does it mean anything else than being the first of it all?
either God made ,create,formed,it does not matter he still the first of all things that where made ,create,formed.
it seems that God did not leave a scientific explanation to the satisfaction of the shrewd scholars.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2010,00:20) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 19 2010,22:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2010,22:56) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 18 2010,09:38) Alpha and Omega could apply to him along with “first and last” and “beginning and end”. What do people gain by belittling God and give him these “titles”?
All three of these “titles” deal with “time” which God is beyond. God exists and is not bound by our limitations of time.
God has no beginning.
God is the ONLY. Why compare Him to the first or last?And funniest yet, WHY the Greek “title” Alpha and Omega for the HEBREW God?
The Professor
Hi David,Funny avatar!
Who is that? The quantum leap guy?God says this about Himself. No one attributes this to Him. And we know it's him because in one instance, He add “the Almighty”.
And what it means in my humble opinion is that the was nothing or no one before Him, and nothing or no one will ever exist after Him.
He is the beginning of everything we know and understand, and none of us will ever “outlive” him.
God isn't just God of the Hebrews. He never was. He is everyone's God whether they know it or not. But I get the joke.
mike
Thanks Mike,Yep, that's the guy. My daughter has had a crush on him for ages and she thinks I look a bit like him….maybe when I was younger.
I think that they really wanted to piss off the Jews so they added this.
The Almighty I get, but comparing Him with others or giving Him a beginning or end won't cut it in my book.
Even the He who is, who was and who is to come goes along with God EXISTS concept, and is separate from the Holy Spirit and Jesus.
The Professor
hi Davidfuni understand this like;
first GOD is the beginning of all he is the one who start with Christ to create ;so written in John;
but he also is the end ;this is also scriptural ,wen Paul says “and then at the end Christ himself turn all things to God so that God can be all in all”
but it is also true with Christ;he is the first of all creation,and he is also the one at the end close all things wen his mission is finished he is the last in all creation to close the door.
so there is no contradiction to apply those therm to both God and Christ..
Pierre
Hi Pierre,I think I understand what you mean.
However, people here want to use these as “titles” of God instead of adjectives as you are seeing them.
So, according to them if you can “Call” God Alpha and Omega and you can “Call” Jesus Alpha and Omega then God = Jesus.
This, I know, you do not believe. But, that is the deception that they are trying to weave.
Would you believe that you are your father? Pierre = Pierre's father
Or as they try to deceive using the Bible: Son of God = God, the Father
The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 20 2010,11:05) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2010,00:20) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 19 2010,22:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2010,22:56) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 18 2010,09:38) Alpha and Omega could apply to him along with “first and last” and “beginning and end”. What do people gain by belittling God and give him these “titles”?
All three of these “titles” deal with “time” which God is beyond. God exists and is not bound by our limitations of time.
God has no beginning.
God is the ONLY. Why compare Him to the first or last?And funniest yet, WHY the Greek “title” Alpha and Omega for the HEBREW God?
The Professor
Hi David,Funny avatar!
Who is that? The quantum leap guy?God says this about Himself. No one attributes this to Him. And we know it's him because in one instance, He add “the Almighty”.
And what it means in my humble opinion is that the was nothing or no one before Him, and nothing or no one will ever exist after Him.
He is the beginning of everything we know and understand, and none of us will ever “outlive” him.
God isn't just God of the Hebrews. He never was. He is everyone's God whether they know it or not. But I get the joke.
mike
Thanks Mike,Yep, that's the guy. My daughter has had a crush on him for ages and she thinks I look a bit like him….maybe when I was younger.
I think that they really wanted to piss off the Jews so they added this.
The Almighty I get, but comparing Him with others or giving Him a beginning or end won't cut it in my book.
Even the He who is, who was and who is to come goes along with God EXISTS concept, and is separate from the Holy Spirit and Jesus.
The Professor
hi Davidfuni understand this like;
first GOD is the beginning of all he is the one who start with Christ to create ;so written in John;
but he also is the end ;this is also scriptural ,wen Paul says “and then at the end Christ himself turn all things to God so that God can be all in all”
but it is also true with Christ;he is the first of all creation,and he is also the one at the end close all things wen his mission is finished he is the last in all creation to close the door.
so there is no contradiction to apply those therm to both God and Christ..
Pierre
Hi Pierre,I think I understand what you mean.
However, people here want to use these as “titles” of God instead of adjectives as you are seeing them.
So, according to them if you can “Call” God Alpha and Omega and you can “Call” Jesus Alpha and Omega then God = Jesus.
This, I know, you do not believe. But, that is the deception that they are trying to weave.
Would you believe that you are your father? Pierre = Pierre's father
Or as they try to deceive using the Bible: Son of God = God, the Father
The Professor
Pierre,Would you say that God has a beginning?
If you say God has a beginning, then what was BEFORE God's beginning?
I say that God EXISTS! Since God EXISTS He has no beginning and no end. Meaning He had no one that created Him or pro-created Him….and therefore He exists without anyone or anything to cause Him to come into existence.
You are right Pierre that Jesus is the beginning of God's creation. Therefore, time BEGAN with Jesus. God is beyond time. Time is a physical property like mass, gravity, etc.
The Bible also says that Jesus is the Eternal Life that was WITH God. Eternal Life would include the beginning and the end and when we receive Jesus into our hearts eternal life is part of him that we receive also. It is not something extra or separate from Jesus.
So, Jesus is the beginning and end, first and last, “Alpha and Omega”. But Jesus is not God.
And in your logic it wouldn't be “wrong” for YOU to apply both adjectives to God, but the deceiver would have you say that Jesus is God.
Also, since God is the Hebrew God it should be “Aleph and Tav”….not Alpha and Omega.
Have a glorious day,
The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 20 2010,10:23) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 20 2010,11:05) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2010,00:20) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 19 2010,22:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2010,22:56) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 18 2010,09:38) Alpha and Omega could apply to him along with “first and last” and “beginning and end”. What do people gain by belittling God and give him these “titles”?
All three of these “titles” deal with “time” which God is beyond. God exists and is not bound by our limitations of time.
God has no beginning.
God is the ONLY. Why compare Him to the first or last?And funniest yet, WHY the Greek “title” Alpha and Omega for the HEBREW God?
The Professor
Hi David,Funny avatar!
Who is that? The quantum leap guy?God says this about Himself. No one attributes this to Him. And we know it's him because in one instance, He add “the Almighty”.
And what it means in my humble opinion is that the was nothing or no one before Him, and nothing or no one will ever exist after Him.
He is the beginning of everything we know and understand, and none of us will ever “outlive” him.
God isn't just God of the Hebrews. He never was. He is everyone's God whether they know it or not. But I get the joke.
mike
Thanks Mike,Yep, that's the guy. My daughter has had a crush on him for ages and she thinks I look a bit like him….maybe when I was younger.
I think that they really wanted to piss off the Jews so they added this.
The Almighty I get, but comparing Him with others or giving Him a beginning or end won't cut it in my book.
Even the He who is, who was and who is to come goes along with God EXISTS concept, and is separate from the Holy Spirit and Jesus.
The Professor
hi Davidfuni understand this like;
first GOD is the beginning of all he is the one who start with Christ to create ;so written in John;
but he also is the end ;this is also scriptural ,wen Paul says “and then at the end Christ himself turn all things to God so that God can be all in all”
but it is also true with Christ;he is the first of all creation,and he is also the one at the end close all things wen his mission is finished he is the last in all creation to close the door.
so there is no contradiction to apply those therm to both God and Christ..
Pierre
Hi Pierre,I think I understand what you mean.
However, people here want to use these as “titles” of God instead of adjectives as you are seeing them.
So, according to them if you can “Call” God Alpha and Omega and you can “Call” Jesus Alpha and Omega then God = Jesus.
This, I know, you do not believe. But, that is the deception that they are trying to weave.
Would you believe that you are your father? Pierre = Pierre's father
Or as they try to deceive using the Bible: Son of God = God, the Father
The Professor
Pierre,Would you say that God has a beginning?
If you say God has a beginning, then what was BEFORE God's beginning?
I say that God EXISTS! Since God EXISTS He has no beginning and no end. Meaning He had no one that created Him or pro-created Him….and therefore He exists without anyone or anything to cause Him to come into existence.
You are right Pierre that Jesus is the beginning of God's creation. Therefore, time BEGAN with Jesus. God is beyond time. Time is a physical property like mass, gravity, etc.
The Bible also says that Jesus is the Eternal Life that was WITH God. Eternal Life would include the beginning and the end and when we receive Jesus into our hearts eternal life is part of him that we receive also. It is not something extra or separate from Jesus.
So, Jesus is the beginning and end, first and last, “Alpha and Omega”. But Jesus is not God.
And in your logic it wouldn't be “wrong” for YOU to apply both adjectives to God, but the deceiver would have you say that Jesus is God.
Also, since God is the Hebrew God it should be “Aleph and Tav”….not Alpha and Omega.
Have a glorious day,
The Professor
hi davidfunyou know maybe i should have used the word, start, in the case of God first creation,sinse time started there as you say.
but in no way Christ could be God, this is blasphemous and slander the Son and the father.
Pierre
The bible does not say Christ is The Firstborn of creation.
It says he is the firstborn over creation.
——–
Meaning he came from The Father.
Creation was made, Christ came forth.
both were born into existence, but for christ to be created would mean he's a creature.
and since we know he isn't a creature (created)… he could only come from YHVH himself.
——-
Everything else, including creation, heaven, angels ect… are created things.
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 19 2010,15:36) The Almighty I get, but comparing Him with others or giving Him a beginning or end won't cut it in my book. Even the He who is, who was and who is to come goes along with God EXISTS concept, and is separate from the Holy Spirit and Jesus.
Hi David,Could you please exchange your word for “anger”. The P-O word might be offensive to some here.
God said in Isaiah that there were no gods before Him, and after Him there will be none. There were none before Him because He is the “first”. There will be none after Him because He is the “last”.
“I am the beginning” is a far cry from “I was the first to begin”.
Anyway, those words are only said about the Almighty anywhere in the scriptures, so what's the debate about here?
And the holy spirit isn't a separate entity from God. It is an extension of Him.
mike
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 19 2010,19:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2010,15:01) Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 19 2010,08:37) The KJV is a literal translation of the original greek/hebrew text. All the others, are translations FROM the KJV, reworded for a better read.
Hi RM,You have been misinformed my friend. That is not even close to true. Almost EVERY single translation out there is translated from the Hebrew and Greek mss.
And the reason they all omit the A and O now is because older Greek mss have been found that DON'T have those words. Some of the more recent ones do, so what does that tell you? It was added at a later date. It's not in the originals.
It will be cool when we find even older mss. I wonder how many other things got added through the years.
peace and love,
mike
According to who?can you source your information?
Hi RM,Here's one:
The New International Version (NIV) is a translation made by more than one hundred scholars working from the best available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts.
http://www.biblegateway.com/version….V-BibleHere's another:
The CEV is not a paraphrase. It is an accurate and faithful translation of the original manuscripts.
http://www.biblegateway.com/version….V-BibleJust Google any version you want, and you'll find out how many scholars worked on it and which Hebrew and Greek mss were used, etc.
mike
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 20 2010,08:43) The bible does not say Christ is The Firstborn of creation. It says he is the firstborn over creation.
So on this scripture, you want to veer away from your precious KJV?
The Greek word “pas” means “all”. And the fact that it is the genetive form in Col 1:15 means you add an “of” in front of it.
mike
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 20 2010,16:43) The bible does not say Christ is The Firstborn of creation. It says he is the firstborn over creation.
——–
Meaning he came from The Father.
Creation was made, Christ came forth.
both were born into existence, but for christ to be created would mean he's a creature.
and since we know he isn't a creature (created)… he could only come from YHVH himself.
——-
Everything else, including creation, heaven, angels ect… are created things.
RM,Cut and paste your Bible verses and I'll do the same:
Col 1:15
KJV: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
NIV: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
NASB: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
ESV, ASV, RSV, YNG & DBY: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
YOU: Meaning he came from The Father.
Question? What about his Mother?
YOU: Creation was made, Christ came forth.
Col 1:16 For “by” Him (JC) all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
ME: The Bible says that Jesus created all things here and John 1:3 which I have said before.
Col 1:17 He (JC) is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
ME: He is BEFORE all things, he didn't come with all things…and then come forth as YOU say.
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is “the beginning”, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to “have first place” in everything.
Christ wasn't “created” but was “pro-created” or begotten by God….and obviously is a “creature” and NOT God.
And since he is the beginning of all creation (and Eternal life is IN him) he could be called “Alpha (beginning) and Omega (end).
And yes, AFTER Jesus, everything else is “created” versus “pro-created”. Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN son of God.
Since he comes FROM YHWH as you claim, he cannot be YHWH (whom he came FROM).
Jesus is the first and last; YHWH is the ONLY.
The Professor
How is the book of Revelation presented?
Revelation 1:1 explains that the revelation was given by GOD through JESUS CHRIST, and therefore the one speaking, through an ANGELIC REPRESENTATIVE at times is God himself, and at other times it’s Jesus Christ. And sometimes JOHN himself is speaking.
Hence,it is reasonable to expect the words of Jehovah God the Almighty to be quoted in the account, along with Jesus’ words, and John’s (and even the angel’s words, who transmitted the message.)Revelation is confusing. Revelation was written to show Jesus’ slaves (and not the world in general) the things that would take place. (Rev 1:1,2) Much like Jesus illustrations, they were not meant to be understood by everyone. (Mat 13:10-12)
Looking at Revelation 1:1, it's sort of as if someone tells someone else to tell someone else something. And as the second someone else is telling the 3d someone what the first someone said, they may sometime inject their own words. Sometimes it will be the direct words of the third someone (speaking to us), other times it will be the first person, being quoted, and sometimes even the angel is speaking.
We just have to be careful and not dismiss Revelation 1:1.
Quote 2.Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.–SF
SF, I think this verse should not be included in any form of “evidence” one way or the other.
The phrase “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” found in the King James Bible and a few others, is not found in some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, such as the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus.
Most modern versions of the Bible don’t include the phrase “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” in Revelation 1:11.
Here is a list of some Bibles that DON'T have those words:New International Version (and UK version)
American Standard Version
New American Standard Version
The Message Version
New Living Translation
English Standard Version
New English
Basic English Bible
American Standard Version
Darby Translations
Holman Christian Standard Bible
New International Reader’s Version
Worldwide English (New Testament)
Today’s New International Version
Contemporary English Version
New World Translation
Jerusalem Bible
New American Bible
Douay-Rheims Bible (and Challenor’s)
Weymouth NTIt also doesn’t occur in some of the older Bibles, such as The Latin Vulgate.
The words in question are found in the King James Versions, the Webster Bible, and the Young Literal Translation, and I’m sure there must be others, but I only checked the 25 that were the easiest to find for myself.I believe that the words: “Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” found in the King James Version is at the least, very questionable.
Hi All,
I have missed any repsonses that were directed towards me.but to claify let me respond to david first
DAVID:
You focus to much on Rev 1,
There are many sources and other languages taht do express the Alpha and the Omega,REGARDLESS if it was or not, because its debatable and never really will have a conclusion.
The last two verses in Ch21, and Ch 22, are presented,
In this Case it really wouldnt mattter if you want to argue that the words are not presented bceause they are.HERE IS MY PROBLEM,
IF Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, that doesnt add to the Trinitarian bases of God being a Trintiy, nor does it add to the Antitrinitarian,
all it means that Jesus is the First and the Last,Just as many places in scriptures says taht Jesus is the Firstborn of all creation, the first to rise fromt he dead, and what not.
I dont see why Mike or anyone else would debate this as Jesus being God.
Its as simple as that, Jesus is the Alpaha and the Omega expressed in scriptures,including espeacily ch22,
where 21 i believe talks abotu God totality.
Quote HERE IS MY PROBLEM, IF Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, that doesnt add to the Trinitarian bases of God being a Trintiy, nor does it add to the Antitrinitarian,
all it means that Jesus is the First and the Last,Just as many places in scriptures says taht Jesus is the Firstborn of all creation, the first to rise fromt he dead, and what not.
I dont see why Mike or anyone else would debate this as Jesus being God.
Its as simple as that, Jesus is the Alpaha and the Omega expressed in scriptures,Jesus definitely is called the first and the last in other places in Revelation, but in both cases it is connected to his death and resurrection. Jesus is the first and last in a very specific sense, and different from God being the first and last (eternal.)
I agree with you that Jesus simply being called first and last doesn't prove anything. (or being called Alpha and omega, which he isn't.) Two or three people can be called 'lord' and not be the same one. Two people can be called “first and last” but those words can be used in a very different sense (as they are.)
JESUS
“These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life [again],” (REVELATION 2:8)
“I am the First [“First,” Alexandrian Manuscript, “Firstborn.”] and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hádes.” (REVELATION 1:17,18)I'm not sure others notice how when the scriptures speak of Jesus being the first, they connect his death to this.
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, . . .”“
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”So, yes, I agree that two being both called “first and last” in different ways doesn't mean they're the same being.
Quote (david @ Aug. 22 2010,18:33) Quote HERE IS MY PROBLEM, IF Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, that doesnt add to the Trinitarian bases of God being a Trintiy, nor does it add to the Antitrinitarian,
all it means that Jesus is the First and the Last,Just as many places in scriptures says taht Jesus is the Firstborn of all creation, the first to rise fromt he dead, and what not.
I dont see why Mike or anyone else would debate this as Jesus being God.
Its as simple as that, Jesus is the Alpaha and the Omega expressed in scriptures,Jesus definitely is called the first and the last in other places in Revelation, but in both cases it is connected to his death and resurrection. Jesus is the first and last in a very specific sense, and different from God being the first and last (eternal.)
I agree with you that Jesus simply being called first and last doesn't prove anything. (or being called Alpha and omega, which he isn't.) Two or three people can be called 'lord' and not be the same one. Two people can be called “first and last” but those words can be used in a very different sense (as they are.)
JESUS
“These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life [again],” (REVELATION 2:8)
“I am the First [“First,” Alexandrian Manuscript, “Firstborn.”] and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hádes.” (REVELATION 1:17,18)I'm not sure others notice how when the scriptures speak of Jesus being the first, they connect his death to this.
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, . . .”“
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”So, yes, I agree that two being both called “first and last” in different ways doesn't mean they're the same being.
David,You make many good points, better than when I tried to explain that in one way the words can be a title and the other times descriptions of what they do.
Rev 21:6 Then He said to me, ” It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
In this verse I see “the spring of the water of life” and I picture Jesus who is the living water…..
Many times in the OT (especially in Psalms) in the middle of a sentence or paragraph one person is talking and then it changes to another.
Rev 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
This appears to have Jesus talking because later it says, “I Jesus….”
However, this verse just doesn't seem to fit into place. Or if this is God talking, then it is in the midst of another as happened in the OT.
the Professor
Quote Many times in the OT (especially in Psalms) in the middle of a sentence or paragraph one person is talking and then it changes to another. In Revelation, it was a Revelation from God given to Jesus, who told an angel to show it to John who is telling it to us, or Jesus “slaves” or servants. (A lot of room for confusion there.)
Quote (david @ Aug. 25 2010,01:13) Quote Many times in the OT (especially in Psalms) in the middle of a sentence or paragraph one person is talking and then it changes to another. In Revelation, it was a Revelation from God given to Jesus, who told an angel to show it to John who is telling it to us, or Jesus “slaves” or servants. (A lot of room for confusion there.)
David,Not only that there are additions made by translators.
Then there is the ambiguity of the words Theos and Kyrios and then every Greek scholar wants to deny whatever is written so there is no agreement on any side.
Furthermore, the debates range from all of these events having already occurred or 1/3 are over 1/3 are occurring and 1/3 are in the future. You'd need a crystal ball to divine what the real truth is so, I seldom like to meddle here because not much can be “proved”.
Finally, what is “gained” by debating a winless situation? If it is a no win scenario why waste the time and energy?
The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 23 2010,11:08) Quote (david @ Aug. 22 2010,18:33) Quote HERE IS MY PROBLEM, IF Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, that doesnt add to the Trinitarian bases of God being a Trintiy, nor does it add to the Antitrinitarian,
all it means that Jesus is the First and the Last,Just as many places in scriptures says taht Jesus is the Firstborn of all creation, the first to rise fromt he dead, and what not.
I dont see why Mike or anyone else would debate this as Jesus being God.
Its as simple as that, Jesus is the Alpaha and the Omega expressed in scriptures,Jesus definitely is called the first and the last in other places in Revelation, but in both cases it is connected to his death and resurrection. Jesus is the first and last in a very specific sense, and different from God being the first and last (eternal.)
I agree with you that Jesus simply being called first and last doesn't prove anything. (or being called Alpha and omega, which he isn't.) Two or three people can be called 'lord' and not be the same one. Two people can be called “first and last” but those words can be used in a very different sense (as they are.)
JESUS
“These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life [again],” (REVELATION 2:8)
“I am the First [“First,” Alexandrian Manuscript, “Firstborn.”] and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hádes.” (REVELATION 1:17,18)I'm not sure others notice how when the scriptures speak of Jesus being the first, they connect his death to this.
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, . . .”“
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”So, yes, I agree that two being both called “first and last” in different ways doesn't mean they're the same being.
David,You make many good points, better than when I tried to explain that in one way the words can be a title and the other times descriptions of what they do.
Rev 21:6 Then He said to me, ” It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
In this verse I see “the spring of the water of life” and I picture Jesus who is the living water…..
Many times in the OT (especially in Psalms) in the middle of a sentence or paragraph one person is talking and then it changes to another.
Rev 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
This appears to have Jesus talking because later it says, “I Jesus….”
However, this verse just doesn't seem to fit into place. Or if this is God talking, then it is in the midst of another as happened in the OT.
the Professor
hi Dbfif God message is given to Christ then toa angel then to anothers angel then to man then to a group of men and then to the all men on earth ,DID THE WORD OF GOD CHANGED?not to me
IS THE WORD OF GOD LESS IMPORTANTE ?not to me
GOD IS NOT A GOD OF DESORDER BUT ORDER AND WISDOM,
SO HE HAS MAKE SURE THAT HIS WORDS STAY IN THE SPIRIT THE SAME.
2Sa 6:7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.
God can protect what is his.we need God to protect us.
WE JUST HAVE TO LOVE TRUTH TO ITS FULL EXEND TO KNOW.Pierre
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 11 2010,10:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2010,15:24) I agree with Marty. The only one in Rev called the Alpha and Omega is God. And Jesus is clearly identified as someone other than God throughout Rev. peace and love,
mike
Is that so?Revelations 1
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
——–This person who said he was The Alpha and The Omega is Jesus Christ himself, as clearly outlined here.
In my bible, those words are also in “Red” which references words of Jesus Christ.
——–
It's funny how people rationalize and choose to see what they want to see, but according to The Only Translated Authority, that matches the original hebrew/greek text “The King James Version”
It is Jesus Christ who is claiming to be The Alpha and Omega…Our Father YHVH is calling himself that too…as well.
either Jesus is lying, or they are one in the same.
Thank you.
My Husband says also that it is Jesus, He had a beginning and is the end , who is to come. Rev. 19:13 -16 also is The Word of God(Who was Jesus) Also in Hebrew and John 1:1-14 Jesus or The Word of God is called God. My understandinmg is that God is a title and many in Ancient times were called God. That takes nothing away from the Almighty Jehovah God…. I still don't understand though that Jesus is called the Almighty. He is called Lord and not LORD like it says in Isaiah.
To me there is something not quit right, so I am going to pray about it……
Peace Irene
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