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T8……a good question here would be what Spirit actually is. I believe it is intellect that gives us awareness of things, thought expressed through Words. Thats why we are to try the spirits to see if they are of God, those who have Gods spirit express Godly thoughts through the Spirit of GOD in them. Jesus said the WORD He spoke (WERE SPIRIT) and life. Words are expressed intellect or thoughts.
imo………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2008,02:18) T8……> we have a body with a spirit in it the combination is a soul, When God breath a spirit into the body it became a soul. Our bodies God considers as a building or temple that He can inter or indwell. When this happens we become (YOKED) with Him and become one team. But Just like a team all ways works as one they in fact are two different animals, but when yoked act as one. Jesus said me and my Father are ONE he did not mean one and the same being but one team so to speak. And as in a team of animals there is always one lead animal that takes the lead and pulls the biggest part of the load, Jesus told us to take that yoke upon us because it lightens our load as it did His. When we receive our new bodies it will have our Spirit and God's of Spirit in it, it the combination of these two that make us the sons of God. Just like it does Jesus. IMO………..gene
Hi GB,
A soul is a body combined with a spirit??So when we die and our spirit returns to God and our body rots we do not exist?
Why do you not go to scripture for truth instead of such speculating?Quote (Irene @ July 15 2008,22:27) Hi Adam John 14:3, Jesus said, “I will come back”, the reason for his return is, to rule and reign on this earth for a thousand years; that's were he will be. He will be the King in a spiritual kingdom, and all his saints will be there with him, in the new Jerusalem that John saw coming down from heaven, Rev. 21:.
Verse 4, “where I go you know”, Jesus was going back to the Father, verse 28.
He also said, “I am the way”, Christs gospel teaches us the way into his kingdom.
The mistake is being made by thinking, Christs kingdom is in heaven, and that is where he and the saints will rule from, Rev. 5:10 tells us different.Georg
The question then becomes should Revelation 5:10 be translated “on the earth” or “over the earth”…Most bibles say “on” but a surprise number of bibles and commentaries…also greek language purists..say that “over” is what was intended because of the uniqueness of the forms of greek used in Revelation…I tend to think it should be “over”..
As Paul said, “Our citizenship is in the heavens”
Not being dogmatic by any means..just thinking out loud
dirtyknections
Earth does not always mean “this earth.”
Sea does not always mean “the sea.”
Beast does not always mean “a beast.”
Daniel saw four beast rise up out of the sea, Dan. 7:2-7. But were they really wild beasts? and did they really come up out of the sea?Verse 17 “These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.”
Sounds like a contradiction right here; are they coming out of the sea, or out of the earth?
Both, the sea are the many kingdoms, the earth are the people making up the kingdoms.
The four beasts we know were the four empires, Babylon, Medo- Persia, Greek, and Rome.If we consider Jesus Christ as our King, than for now our citizenship is in heaven, because our king is still there. When Jesus begins to reign as king on this earth, than we will become citizen of his kingdom, and he will rule over us, or over the earth.
Georg
Quote (Irene @ July 16 2008,14:43) dirtyknections Earth does not always mean “this earth.”
Sea does not always mean “the sea.”
Beast does not always mean “a beast.”
Daniel saw four beast rise up out of the sea, Dan. 7:2-7. But were they really wild beasts? and did they really come up out of the sea?Verse 17 “These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.”
Sounds like a contradiction right here; are they coming out of the sea, or out of the earth?
Both, the sea are the many kingdoms, the earth are the people making up the kingdoms.
The four beasts we know were the four empires, Babylon, Medo- Persia, Greek, and Rome.If we consider Jesus Christ as our King, than for now our citizenship is in heaven, because our king is still there. When Jesus begins to reign as king on this earth, than we will become citizen of his kingdom, and he will rule over us, or over the earth.
Georg
All valid thoughts…my interpretation differs though
Quote (Irene @ July 16 2008,14:43) dirtyknections Earth does not always mean “this earth.”
Sea does not always mean “the sea.”
Beast does not always mean “a beast.”
Daniel saw four beast rise up out of the sea, Dan. 7:2-7. But were they really wild beasts? and did they really come up out of the sea?Verse 17 “These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.”
Sounds like a contradiction right here; are they coming out of the sea, or out of the earth?
Both, the sea are the many kingdoms, the earth are the people making up the kingdoms.
The four beasts we know were the four empires, Babylon, Medo- Persia, Greek, and Rome.If we consider Jesus Christ as our King, than for now our citizenship is in heaven, because our king is still there. When Jesus begins to reign as king on this earth, than we will become citizen of his kingdom, and he will rule over us, or over the earth.
Georg
Dont forget this scripture…Hebrews 11:39-40… 39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
dirtyknections, hi
That's right, Paul was referring to the first resurrection.
Remember what Jesus had said?John 3:13 “And no man has ascended up to heaven…”
This is what Peter said after Christs ascension to heaven.
Acts 2:34 “For David is not ascended up into the heavens…”
The problem is, that we are so stuck on the egyptian idea that life goes on after death. It does, but not until after the resurrection.
Jesus is the first to be reborn after death.Col. 1:18 “…the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
To be born means, to receive life; to have the preeminence in all things means, to be the first.
Jesus was the first to receive life, Col. 1:15, and the first to receive life after death.Georg
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2008,07:31) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2008,02:18) T8……> we have a body with a spirit in it the combination is a soul, When God breath a spirit into the body it became a soul. Our bodies God considers as a building or temple that He can inter or indwell. When this happens we become (YOKED) with Him and become one team. But Just like a team all ways works as one they in fact are two different animals, but when yoked act as one. Jesus said me and my Father are ONE he did not mean one and the same being but one team so to speak. And as in a team of animals there is always one lead animal that takes the lead and pulls the biggest part of the load, Jesus told us to take that yoke upon us because it lightens our load as it did His. When we receive our new bodies it will have our Spirit and God's of Spirit in it, it the combination of these two that make us the sons of God. Just like it does Jesus. IMO………..gene
Hi GB,
A soul is a body combined with a spirit??So when we die and our spirit returns to God and our body rots we do not exist?
Why do you not go to scripture for truth instead of such speculating?
Nick……… if you weren't so blind you could easily see that i said a body combined with Spirit equal a SOUL> Your so incensed with trying to prove me wrong all the time you are not even correctly reading what i am saying.The body + Spirit= A SOUL, now is that clear enough for you?
When a man dies his body goes to the grave and decomposes and the Spirit in Him goes to GOD, who GAVE IT, If you want scripture i can give you it Just ask and you shall receive.
When man was created and the spirit of life was breath into him he became a living Soul, Nephesh, in Hebrew or Psuche in Greek.
Jesus said do not fear them that can kill the body , but fear him who can destory (BOTH) body and Soul (Spirit) . The combination of Body and Spirit = Soul. And i have never said or implied differently.
Show me one thing i said the differers with scripture if you can, instead of just vomiting out your trash, back up what your saying.
Quote (Irene @ July 17 2008,00:56) dirtyknections, hi That's right, Paul was referring to the first resurrection.
Remember what Jesus had said?John 3:13 “And no man has ascended up to heaven…”
This is what Peter said after Christs ascension to heaven.
Acts 2:34 “For David is not ascended up into the heavens…”
The problem is, that we are so stuck on the egyptian idea that life goes on after death. It does, but not until after the resurrection.
Jesus is the first to be reborn after death.Col. 1:18 “…the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
To be born means, to receive life; to have the preeminence in all things means, to be the first.
Jesus was the first to receive life, Col. 1:15, and the first to receive life after death.Georg
I agree with everything you said..basically…I don't believe in an immediate resurrection after death…but I do believe people will ascend…I believe that it happens upon Christs Return…
1 Corinthians 15:51-53….51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
dirtyknections
You're correct, Paul never spoke of an immediate resurrection.
I am quoting from the “Ryrie study Bible, King James version”, and its put just a little different there.1 Cor. 15:51 “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.”
I believe it makes a difference whether you say, will not , or shall not. “Will not” makes it sound more immediate, while “shall not” sounds more future. Considering what Paul was talking about, the resurrection, it makes sense. “Not all shall sleep”, sleeping is done in the grave, after the resurrection of the dead saints, there would be no more time spend in the grave, sleeping, for all the saints that die from than on, at death they would have their change instantly.
1 Thes. 4:16 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.”
Two things are noteworthy;
one, Christ is coming down from heaven to raise the dead.
two, only the dead in Christ, the saints, are raised, the rest of the dead remain in their graves, remain asleep until their time,1 Cor. 15:23 “But every man in his own order…”1 Thes. 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
We, the saints, which are alive and remain. Question, how long will they remain? Answer, till their death, than their change comes instantly.
Why the mentioning of clouds and air? Whatever is in or behind a cloud, we can't see, neither can we see air. What Paul is referring too, is the spirit world. Whether you were dead in your grave, or whether you died some time later, you will meet the Lord in the spirit world, the air. Remember when Jesus was trying to explain to Nicodemus what a spirit was, John chapter three?Georg
Quote (Irene @ July 17 2008,06:30) dirtyknections You're correct, Paul never spoke of an immediate resurrection.
I am quoting from the “Ryrie study Bible, King James version”, and its put just a little different there.1 Cor. 15:51 “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.”
I believe it makes a difference whether you say, will not , or shall not. “Will not” makes it sound more immediate, while “shall not” sounds more future. Considering what Paul was talking about, the resurrection, it makes sense. “Not all shall sleep”, sleeping is done in the grave, after the resurrection of the dead saints, there would be no more time spend in the grave, sleeping, for all the saints that die from than on, at death they would have their change instantly.
1 Thes. 4:16 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.”
Two things are noteworthy;
one, Christ is coming down from heaven to raise the dead.
two, only the dead in Christ, the saints, are raised, the rest of the dead remain in their graves, remain asleep until their time,1 Cor. 15:23 “But every man in his own order…”1 Thes. 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
We, the saints, which are alive and remain. Question, how long will they remain? Answer, till their death, than their change comes instantly.
Why the mentioning of clouds and air? Whatever is in or behind a cloud, we can't see, neither can we see air. What Paul is referring too, is the spirit world. Whether you were dead in your grave, or whether you died some time later, you will meet the Lord in the spirit world, the air. Remember when Jesus was trying to explain to Nicodemus what a spirit was, John chapter three?Georg
All things I agree with…basically…the question that I am pondering is once we meet the Lord will we be with him in Heaven or on Earth? I tend to think Heaven..notice this scripture…Revelation 14:3-5…3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
I think the 144,000 mentioned here and also in Rev ch 7 are symbolic for the “Saints” or “anointed” of Christ and the Father
Hi dirtyknections, and bless you for staying with this.
I think you may be overlooking something. In v.1 of chapter 14, the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is standing on mount Zion “with” the 144000.
In v.2, John hears a voice “from” heaven, he also hears the “voice” of harpers harping on their harps. Sounds to me like the harpers were singing, especially if you continue with v.3, and “they” sung as it were a new song before the throne.
There is however something special about the 144000.
First of all, they are all of the tribes of Israel, chapter 7.
Then, they are the only once that have the Fathers name written in their forehead, v.1. That of course is not to be taken literal, they are the adopted sons of God. A child that is adopted will be given the name of the father. To me this means, they are the once that will sit with Christ on his throne, Rev. 3:21, and share in his divine nature, immortality, 2 Peter 1:4. And, they will be the only once that will be able to learn that new song, to me that says, there is a great honor in that.
And Rev. 5:10 tells us were Christ and all the saints will be.Georg
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2008,04:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2008,07:31) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2008,02:18) T8……> we have a body with a spirit in it the combination is a soul, When God breath a spirit into the body it became a soul. Our bodies God considers as a building or temple that He can inter or indwell. When this happens we become (YOKED) with Him and become one team. But Just like a team all ways works as one they in fact are two different animals, but when yoked act as one. Jesus said me and my Father are ONE he did not mean one and the same being but one team so to speak. And as in a team of animals there is always one lead animal that takes the lead and pulls the biggest part of the load, Jesus told us to take that yoke upon us because it lightens our load as it did His. When we receive our new bodies it will have our Spirit and God's of Spirit in it, it the combination of these two that make us the sons of God. Just like it does Jesus. IMO………..gene
Hi GB,
A soul is a body combined with a spirit??So when we die and our spirit returns to God and our body rots we do not exist?
Why do you not go to scripture for truth instead of such speculating?
Nick……… if you weren't so blind you could easily see that i said a body combined with Spirit equal a SOUL> Your so incensed with trying to prove me wrong all the time you are not even correctly reading what i am saying.The body + Spirit= A SOUL, now is that clear enough for you?
When a man dies his body goes to the grave and decomposes and the Spirit in Him goes to GOD, who GAVE IT, If you want scripture i can give you it Just ask and you shall receive.
When man was created and the spirit of life was breath into him he became a living Soul, Nephesh, in Hebrew or Psuche in Greek.
Jesus said do not fear them that can kill the body , but fear him who can destory (BOTH) body and Soul (Spirit) . The combination of Body and Spirit = Soul. And i have never said or implied differently.
Show me one thing i said the differers with scripture if you can, instead of just vomiting out your trash, back up what your saying.
Hi GB,
Why should we take your word?
Surley you can show these things from scripture?Quote (Irene @ July 17 2008,00:56) dirtyknections, hi That's right, Paul was referring to the first resurrection.
Remember what Jesus had said?John 3:13 “And no man has ascended up to heaven…”
This is what Peter said after Christs ascension to heaven.
Acts 2:34 “For David is not ascended up into the heavens…”
The problem is, that we are so stuck on the egyptian idea that life goes on after death. It does, but not until after the resurrection.
Jesus is the first to be reborn after death.Col. 1:18 “…the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
To be born means, to receive life; to have the preeminence in all things means, to be the first.
Jesus was the first to receive life, Col. 1:15, and the first to receive life after death.Georg
Hi Georg,
Abraham was alive to God when Jesus was here.
Some are dead to God while they live“Let the dead bury the dead..”
Quote (Irene @ July 17 2008,13:09) Hi dirtyknections, and bless you for staying with this. I think you may be overlooking something. In v.1 of chapter 14, the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is standing on mount Zion “with” the 144000.
In v.2, John hears a voice “from” heaven, he also hears the “voice” of harpers harping on their harps. Sounds to me like the harpers were singing, especially if you continue with v.3, and “they” sung as it were a new song before the throne.
There is however something special about the 144000.
First of all, they are all of the tribes of Israel, chapter 7.
Then, they are the only once that have the Fathers name written in their forehead, v.1. That of course is not to be taken literal, they are the adopted sons of God. A child that is adopted will be given the name of the father. To me this means, they are the once that will sit with Christ on his throne, Rev. 3:21, and share in his divine nature, immortality, 2 Peter 1:4. And, they will be the only once that will be able to learn that new song, to me that says, there is a great honor in that.
And Rev. 5:10 tells us were Christ and all the saints will be.Georg
Thsi is where I differ with you…The 144,000 and the great crowd (multitude) are said to be before the throne in heaven…actually they are said to be in the “naos” which is greek for the the inner sanctuary…the word “naos” which is the greek word used in REvelation for “holy of holies”..John saw in Heaven…Revelation also said they were taken FROM the earth…I agree with you on that they have the privledge of ruling with CHrist…Revelation 5:10 can easily be transalted “over the earth” instead of “on the earth”…
Hebrews 11:39-40… 39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Revelation 17:14…14They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
My bible does not say they were “taken” from the earth, they were “redeemed” from the earth.
Did not Christ redeem all of us?
Neither does it say before the throne “in heaven”, but I can see why one would assume that, since God's throne is in heaven.
But these saints are not going to serve God in heaven, he has angels for that.
This great multitude of saints will serve in the “temple” of God. And who or what is the temple of God? the saints, the church, the body of Christ. They will serve him who sits on the throne, the King of kings, and the Lord of lords, Jesus Christ.Georg
Quote (Irene @ July 17 2008,23:14) My bible does not say they were “taken” from the earth, they were “redeemed” from the earth.
Did not Christ redeem all of us?
Neither does it say before the throne “in heaven”, but I can see why one would assume that, since God's throne is in heaven.
But these saints are not going to serve God in heaven, he has angels for that.
This great multitude of saints will serve in the “temple” of God. And who or what is the temple of God? the saints, the church, the body of Christ. They will serve him who sits on the throne, the King of kings, and the Lord of lords, Jesus Christ.Georg
Actually all bibles say that the they are in heaven…do some research on the greek word “naos” and you will see…Everytime John saw the lamb, 144 000, great multitude, the 7 trumpets, 24 elders (who I believe are symbolic for the saints also). all of these things he saw in heaven…
And you are right GOD has angels to serve him in heaven..BUT thats not our job anyway according to the bible…notice these scriptures…
1 Corinthians 6:2-4…2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church![a]
Revelation 4:3-4… 3And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne. 4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Romans 8:17…17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
1 Peter 2:9 … 9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
Revelation 20:4… 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Hi DK,
Did one of the 'symbolic' elders speak with John?
Where are the archangels shown in Revelation?
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