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t8 said to WJ:
Quote Are you the same being as the person who calls you son? (i.e., your father?). Being = essence
Being 2 The qualities or constitution of an existent thing (Webster's)
Being 2 Essential nature, substance (Funk and Wagnall's)
t8,
Yes I am the same being as the person who calls me son (my father). I possess the same qualities and constitution (Webster's). I have the same essential nature and substance (F & W).
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 23 2011,13:33) Yes I am the same being as…………..my father.
Jack,You are so precious to me! Have you gone completely off your rocker?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2011,13:01) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 23 2011,13:33) Yes I am the same being as…………..my father.
Jack,You are so precious to me! Have you gone completely off your rocker?
mike
JMike,Just as I thought. You cannot refute the dictionaries. Did you read the definitions of the word “being” in the dictionaries Mike?
I did NOT say that I am the same person as my father. I said that I am the same being as my father. That is, I am of the same substance or qualities as my father.
I am a human being. My father is a human being. My father and I are the same being but different persons.
Again, I did NOT say that I am the same person as my father. I said that I am the same essence or being.
Christ is the EXACT representation of the Father's substance. Refute it Mike!
TO ALL,
Did you notice that Mike offered no intelligent reply to my point but to mock? But will Mike mock the dictionaries which say that “being” means:
Being 2 The qualities or constitution of an existent thing (Webster's)
Being 2 Essential nature, substance (Funk and Wagnall's)
BEING AND PERSON ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS MIKEY!
A ROCK IS A GRANITE BEING. ALL ROCKS ARE THE SAME BEING BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL OF GRANITE IN SUBSTANCE.
MIKE DOES NOT COMPREHEND ESSENCE AND BEING. NOR IS HE ABLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN BEING AND PERSON.
THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE TWO PERSONS BUT THE SAME BEING BECAUSE THEY ARE OF THE SAME SUBSTANCE (Hebrews 1).
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 24 2011,10:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2011,13:01) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 23 2011,13:33) Yes I am the same being as…………..my father.
Jack,You are so precious to me! Have you gone completely off your rocker?
mike
JMike,Just as I thought. You cannot refute the dictionaries. Did you read the definitions of the word “being” in the dictionaries Mike?
I did NOT say that I am the same person as my father. I said that I am the same being as my father. That is, I am of the same substance or qualities as my father.
I am a human being. My father is a human being. My father and I are the same being but different persons.
Again, I did NOT say that I am the same person as my father. I said that I am the same essence or being.
Christ is the EXACT representation of the Father's substance. Refute it Mike!
TO ALL,
Did you notice that Mike offered no intelligent reply to my point but to mock? But will Mike mock the dictionaries which say that “being” means:
Being 2 The qualities or constitution of an existent thing (Webster's)
Being 2 Essential nature, substance (Funk and Wagnall's)
BEING AND PERSON ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS MIKEY!
A ROCK IS A GRANITE BEING. ALL ROCKS ARE THE SAME BEING BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL OF GRANITE IN SUBSTANCE.
MIKE DOES NOT COMPREHEND ESSENCE AND BEING. NOR IS HE ABLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN BEING AND PERSON.
THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE TWO PERSONS BUT THE SAME BEING BECAUSE THEY ARE OF THE SAME SUBSTANCE (Hebrews 1).
Jack
JackAmen and well put!
WJ
Keith said:
Quote Jack Amen and well put!
WJ
Keith,Mike would have been better off ignoring this topic instead of posting a mock statement because it is obvious that he cannot answer the argument. He actually believes he is going to overthrow the trinity doctrine when he cannot even distinguish between being and person.
Jack
Jack
The anti Jesus is God people see a different Jesus than what is taught in the scriptures.
God is a consuming fire which must mean that Jesus is also a consuming fire yet when they see Jesus they don't see a consuming fire but a flashlight.
The flash light and the fire are completely different in nature.
Jesus is the “the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being…“
This means that Jesus is exactly like God the Father in every way and that is because as you have pointed out he is of the same being as God. The God kind of being.
If it looks like God and smells like God and acts like God in every way then it is God.
The anti Jesus is God people see a Jesus that doesn't look like God or smell like God or act like God because they see him as less than God which means they do not see him as the “the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being…“.
Since no one can know God the Father apart from knowing Jesus, they have a false image of God the Father which in essence means they serve a false Jesus or God.
It is a downward spiral for them because they are constantly trying to denegrate who Jesus really is to something less than he is.
So while we are trying to exalt him they are trying to pull or bring him down.
The Baptist said “he (Jesus) must increase and I must decrease”.
Mike has just admitted that he doesn't give Jesus the same honour as the Father even though Jesus said in his own words that we are to honour him “Even as” we honour the Father.
Our confession is Jesus is “God with us” (Emmanuel) and theirs is he is not “God with us”
Blessings WJ
WJ said:
Quote Mike has just admitted that he doesn't give Jesus the same honour as the Father even though Jesus said in his own words that we are to honour him “Even as” we honour the Father.
Mike has in essence admitted that Jesus is not the monogenes of God and this puts Mike under the wrath of God.“He that does not believe is condemned already BECAUSE he does not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
If Christ is the monogenes of God, then He is the same being as God though not the same Person.
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 24 2011,09:48)
Mike,Just as I thought. You cannot refute the dictionaries. Did you read the definitions of the word “being” in the dictionaries Mike?
I did NOT say that I am the same person as my father. I said that I am the same being as my father.
Again, I did NOT say that I am the same person as my father.
Did you notice that Mike offered no intelligent reply to my point but to mock?
Jack, Jack, Jack,Many dictionaries actually list PERSON as a definition of “being”. And “person” is also a synonym of “being”.
From Dictionary.com:
6. a human being; person: the most beautiful being you could imagine.From World English Dictionary:
4. a person; human beingFrom Merriam Webster:
3. a living thing; especially : personThe Free Dictionary.com:
3.
a. A person: “The artist after all is a solitary being” (Virginia Woolf).Come on Jack, how far will you go? Is there any end to the lunatic things you will claim or the completely illogical things you will say to defend your flawed doctrine? Don't you realize that any sane person who heard you claim that you and your father were the same being as a defense to the trinity doctrine would probably convert to a non-trinitarian on the spot?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 24 2011,10:19)
This means that Jesus is exactly like God the Father in every way
I wouldn't say “every way”. Jesus is not “the Father”. The Father did not get SENT to earth to DIE. The Father was not GIVEN all power and authority from someone else. Jesus did not EXALT the Father to the honored position at his right hand………….as PRINCE.Keith, we just went through this same exact point not even a week ago. Yet here you are making the same exact claim again.
What is the matter with you? And here you are again, getting schooled on the logic of “like”. When anyone is said to be LIKE someone, it is a given that there are TWO who are being talked about.
When you say, “Jesus is LIKE God”, you are at the same exact moment saying, “Jesus is NOT God”. Don't you get this?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 24 2011,10:19)
Mike has just admitted that he doesn't give Jesus the same honour as the Father even though Jesus said in his own words that we are to honour him “Even as” we honour the Father.
Luke 6:36
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.Can we show mercy to others, JUST AS our Father shows mercy, without BEING the Father? Then why can't Jesus be honored just as his Father is honored? Can't you see how lame this argument is, Keith? Show me how this proves Jesus is God, and I'll show you how it proves human beings are really rats:
Human beings feed their young JUST AS rats feed their young.
Are human beings rats now just because both feed their young? If not, then why would Jesus be God Himself just because both of them are honored? David has been honored before, JUST AS God has been honored before. Does this wording somehow imply the same exact “honor” is bestowed upon both of them? If it does imply that to you, then my “rat” sentence must also imply that human beings really ARE rats.
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 24 2011,16:33) If Christ is the monogenes of God, then He is the same being as God though not the same Person.
You have gone completely insane, my friend.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2011,11:56) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 24 2011,09:48)
Mike,Just as I thought. You cannot refute the dictionaries. Did you read the definitions of the word “being” in the dictionaries Mike?
I did NOT say that I am the same person as my father. I said that I am the same being as my father.
Again, I did NOT say that I am the same person as my father.
Did you notice that Mike offered no intelligent reply to my point but to mock?
Jack, Jack, Jack,Many dictionaries actually list PERSON as a definition of “being”. And “person” is also a synonym of “being”.
From Dictionary.com:
6. a human being; person: the most beautiful being you could imagine.From World English Dictionary:
4. a person; human beingFrom Merriam Webster:
3. a living thing; especially : personThe Free Dictionary.com:
3.
a. A person: “The artist after all is a solitary being” (Virginia Woolf).Come on Jack, how far will you go? Is there any end to the lunatic things you will claim or the completely illogical things you will say to defend your flawed doctrine? Don't you realize that any sane person who heard you claim that you and your father were the same being as a defense to the trinity doctrine would probably convert to a non-trinitarian on the spot?
mike
Mike,There ya go again citing sources half cocked. Webster's New Dictionary of Synonyms says that the word “person” is an antonym of the word “being.”
Quote being 1 existence, actuality Antonym individual, person
page 95
So you erred Mike. You said that the word person is a synonym for being when you should have said that the word person may be a synonym for being depending upon context. Lexically the word person is an antonym of the word being.Do you know what an antonym is Mike?
The word being means “existence” or “substance.”
Rocks are non-persons Mike. Yet they have the same being, that is, they are all of the same substance.
The Father and the Son are one Being in two Persons. Hebrews 1 says that Jesus is the EXACT representation of the Father's substance (hupostasis).
Jack
CORRECTION
TO ALL,
In my post immediately above I incorrectly read Webster's Dictionary of Synonyms.
Here is the correction definition of “being”
being 1 existence, actuality 2 entity, creature, individual, person
So Mike erred in saying that the word “person” is a synonym for the word “being.” He should have said that the word “person” may be a synonym for the word “being.”
The antonym for the word “being” is becoming, nonbeing
Trinitarians assert that The Father and the Son are the same Being in the sense that they are of the same “entity” but are not the same Person.
Being 2 The qualities or constitution of an existent thing (Webster's)
Being 2 Essential nature, substance (Funk and Wagnall's)
The Son is the EXACT representation of the Father's substance (being, Greek “hupostasis” Hebrews 1)
KJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2011,20:20) When you say, “Jesus is LIKE God”, you are at the same exact moment saying, “Jesus is NOT God”. Don't you get this?
MikeNo because if I say you are the “Exact representation of a human being” am I saying that you are not a human being?
Why don't you get this Mike?
Jesus is the “radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being…Heb 1:5
In other words if you see Jesus you are seeing God. You can’t tell the difference in their respective being.
If you make an “exact representation” of a hammer then would you say it is not a “hammer”? That is what you are doing with your logic.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2011,20:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 24 2011,10:19)
Mike has just admitted that he doesn't give Jesus the same honour as the Father even though Jesus said in his own words that we are to honour him “Even as” we honour the Father.
Luke 6:36
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.Can we show mercy to others, JUST AS our Father shows mercy, without BEING the Father?
What kind of spin is this Mike?The honour is toward Jesus and he clearly says we are to honour him “Just as” we honour the Father. John 5:23
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2011,20:20) Human beings feed their young JUST AS rats feed their young.
How desperate to use foolish logic like this to explain away Jesus words.If honoring Jesus even as we honour the Father is the same as lets say honoring our President then what is the purpose of his statement?
Your very own words were…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 23 2011,19:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,09:43)
When are you going to give Jesus the same honour as the Father?
I won't. I honor the Father as my only true God. I honor Jesus as the Savior the Father sent as a sacrifice for me. They have different roles, and deserve different honors. Honor and glory go hand in hand. And my God warned me that He will share His own glory with NO OTHER. His Son is an “other”.that all may “honor the Son “JUST AS” they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. John 5:23
So how do your words match Jesus plain words?
You said… “They have different roles, and deserve different honors.”
But Jesus words are he didn’t have a different role when he made the statement for he said “All judgment is committed to him”. John 5:22
Why are you giving the Father different honour than Jesus when he said you are to honour him “Just as” you honour the Father?
WJ
Mike said:
Quote Honor and glory go hand in hand. And my God warned me that He will share His own glory with NO OTHER. His Son is an “other”.
TO ALL,God was saying that He will not share His glory or His praise with carved images, that is, the gods that men create (Is. 42:8).
Jesus CLEARLY shared the glory of the Father before the world began:
Quote 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence WITH THE GLORY I HAD WITH YOU before the world began. John 17:3
KJ
TO ALL:
Mike said that Jesus is still “servant” after He was resurrected and exalted. This is blatantly false. Peter said that God exalted the “CHILD” Jesus. The Greek word is not “doulos” (servant) but “pais” (child). This had reference to His legal status under hte law. Jesus was born under the law and was as a child-servant in the days of His flesh. He is the fully investitured Son now. In hebrew culture the fully investitured Son was no longer a servant. Please see my argument below from my second debate with Mike.
I said:
Quote This is why it is so important to recognize why Peter used the word “child” instead of the usual word for servant (doulos). Jesus started out under the law which constituted Him as a “child” (servant). Upon His exaltation to His Father's right hand He legally became God's fully investitured Son. The fully investitured son was NO LONGER the servant of his father.
Mike replied:Quote I think this “fully investitured son” is another conjecture paraphrase Jack uses a lot. Are these words actually in scripture somewhere?
Reply:Paul explicitly made reference to the law which regarded a child as a servant UNTIL the appointed time of the father. Then he said that Christ “came to be under the law.” So Christ came to be under the law which regarded the child as a servant UNTIL the appointed time of the father.
Quote Jack, can you explain why almost every newer translation uses the English word “servant” now?
Reply:The Greek literally says “child.” Strong's# 3816 says simply that it means “a boy.” According to Paul the child differed nothing from a servant though he was owner of all. But at the appointed time of the father the child became a son and no longer a servant (Gal. 4). Jesus came to be under that law which regarded the child as a servant UNTIL the appointed time of the father.
Mike:
Quote Can you explain why the KJV changed it from “child” to “servant” in its newer translation?
Reply:The child was a servant as I have said. But He was the heir unlike the servant. And he differed nothing from a servant UNTIL the appointed time of the father (Gal. 4) The whole idea is that Jesus was the CHILD-SERVANT of God. But now He is the fully investitured Son. Back to Hebrews 3. Jesus is “Son” over His house while Moses was just a servant. Therefore, the Son is not a servant. Mike assumes that the translators mean the same thing he means by terms.
“pais” = child servant (family member, becomes a fully investitured son).
“doulos” = servant (non family member and not a son)
Mike:
Quote Can you explain why, according to your reasoning above, Peter and John would STILL pray through the name of God's holy “child” Jesus after he was raised and apparently a “fully investitured son” at that time?
Reply:Because it was the name of the historical Jesus that was the basis and grounds of all benefits.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….=252148
KJ
I gave the wrong link for my second debate with Mike. Here is the correct link:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….8;st=30
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,12:04)
Mike,There ya go again citing sources half cocked. Webster's New Dictionary of Synonyms says that the word “person” is an antonym of the word “being.”
One hour later:
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,12:04)
TO ALL,In my post immediately above I incorrectly read Webster's Dictionary of Synonyms.
Here is the correction definition of “being”
being 1 existence, actuality 2 entity, creature, individual, person
Yet I'M the one going off “half cocked”?Listen Jack, if you want to go around claiming that you and your dad are the SAME BEING, then go for it. The rest of us will just sit back and laugh at you and know that there is no end to the madness you will claim to make the Son of the BEING of God the same BEING of God that he is the Son OF.
Don't forget that IDIVIDUAL is also a synonym of being, according to your source.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,13:18)
MikeNo because if I say you are the “Exact representation of a human being” am I saying that you are not a human being?
Keith, look at your own words. I've already explained this to you. God is not some kind of “species”, of which there are many members. So don't use “A human being” in your analogy unless you intend to also use “A God” in the other half of it.God is ONE Being. So for you analogy to work correctly, you must say: If I say you are the “Exact representation of THE human being, John,” am I saying that you are not THE human being, John?
And my answer would be “YES”.
For Jesus to be the “exact representation” of our ONLY GOD, Jehovah the Father, then he CAN NOT BE our ONLY GOD Jehovah the Father. And there are no other Gods that we have except for Jehovah the Father. So if he is not THAT ONE, then he is not God.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,13:18)
If you make an “exact representation” of a hammer then would you say it is not a “hammer”? That is what you are doing with your logic.
Yes Keith, let's DO discuss our logics here. You repeatedly add the indefinite article “A” in your analogies. Your analogy cannot work unless you then add the indefinite article “A” in the part about God. You can't say “A HAMMER” without equally saying “A GOD”.So once again, you must change your hammer analogy to fit. You must first assume that there is ONLY ONE hammer in the whole world. Only then can your analogy work as compared to our ONLY ONE God. So let's try it with equal scales, okay?
If you make an “exact representation” of THE ONLY HAMMER IN THE WORLD, would that “exact representation” BE “THE ONLY HAMMER IN THE WORLD”?
See Keith, THAT'S how an equal scaled analogy would have to be worded in order to compare to OUR ONE AND ONLY GOD. You keep comparing a species of MANY with a God of ONE. It just doesn't work that way.
Keith, please acknowledge that you understand what I'm saying about how the hammer in question would have to be THE ONE AND ONLY HAMMER IN EXISTENCE for your comparison to the ONE AND ONLY GOD IN EXISTENCE to work.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,13:18)
The honour is toward Jesus and he clearly says we are to honour him “Just as” we honour the Father. John 5:23
Yes Keith. And I understand that you take the words “just as” to mean “with the SAME EXACT HONOR as you honor the Father with”. But those words actually mean “ALSO”. Just like in my “rat” analogy, “Human beings feed their young, rats ALSO feed their young”. It is the same with 5:23. Jesus is saying, “You honor the Father. You must ALSO honor the Son that He sent.”Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,13:18)
If honoring Jesus even as we honour the Father is the same as lets say honoring our President then what is the purpose of his statement?
Now we're getting closer Keith.1 Timothy 6:1
All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.Give full respect to your earthy masters, JUST AS you give full respect to your heavenly Master. Do you see how it's not implying the EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF RESPECT, or even the exact same KIND of respect? It's only saying, “You respect your heavenly Master…………respect ALSO your earthly master.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,13:18)
But Jesus words are he didn’t have a different role when he made the statement for he said “All judgment is committed to him”. John 5:22
Let's try the NASB version:John 5:22 NASB
“For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the SonGod has GRANTED Jesus the authority to judge. What part of that spells out equality? Does Jesus ever GRANT anything to his God?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,13:55)
Mike said:Quote Honor and glory go hand in hand. And my God warned me that He will share His own glory with NO OTHER. His Son is an “other”.
TO ALL,God was saying that He will not share His glory or His praise with carved images, that is, the gods that men create (Is. 42:8).
So it's okay with God if we share His glory with living men? How about living cows? Jack, He specifically spelled it out very clearly that they had NOT seen any image of Him on Horeb, and therefore worship NOTHING with an image, whether it be of man, or animal, or the sun, moon or stars.Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,13:55)
Jesus CLEARLY shared the glory of the Father before the world began:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence WITH THE GLORY I HAD WITH YOU before the world began.
John 17:3
It says “the glory I HAD alongside YOU”. How in the world do you get “God's glory” out of “the glory I HAD”?mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,15:30) Mike said that Jesus is still “servant” after He was resurrected and exalted. This is blatantly false. Peter said that God exalted the “CHILD” Jesus. The Greek word is not “doulos” (servant) but “pais” (child). This had reference to His legal status under hte law. Jesus was born under the law and was as a child-servant in the days of His flesh. He is the fully investitured Son now. In hebrew culture the fully investitured Son was no longer a servant. Please see my argument below from my second debate with Mike.
Jack,Virtually EVERY translation now translates it as SERVANT, just as they translate the same word as SERVANT many other times in scripture.
Even the trinitarian sponsored Bibles are all against you on this one. Face it Jack, Jesus is still a servant of his God.
mike
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