Proclaimer vs WJs debate: &#8230;God or Son of God

Participant

Hi Everyone,

We need a special thread: so we can all comment on their debate!
T8 defines the debate perfectly; what did Jesus declare himself to be?

“God” OR “Son of God” ?

So the obvious question is: Why do some
try to change Jesus plain and simple words?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
PS> T8, could you capitalize “Son of God”?

February 19, 2011 at 1:09 am#236279

Participant

Hi Everyone,

WJ's assertion is that Jesus is both,
but he has yet to produce any evidence
of this assertion. He has not even explained
his logic behind this assertion. So far he seems
to think that asking questions will establish his logic.
But I fail to see how others will agree with this strategy?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 19, 2011 at 3:40 pm#236304

Blocked

Good points Ed. It is hard for me to fathom how these supposedly learned scholars got “God the Son” out of the words “Son of God”.

I'll be watching the debate, and I hope that t8 nails Keith down to answering the questions DIRECTLY instead of diverting from them with his famous “question answers” that you pointed out.

mike

February 20, 2011 at 12:50 am#236354

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2011,01:40)

Good points Ed. It is hard for me to fathom how these supposedly learned scholars got “God the Son” out of the words “Son of God”.

I'll be watching the debate, and I hope that t8 nails Keith down to answering the questions DIRECTLY instead of diverting from them with his famous “question answers” that you pointed out.

mike

Jesus came as a servant and as such He let others call Him God. He was truly God humble before us.

February 20, 2011 at 12:38 pm#236617

Participant

Mike said:

Quote

It is hard for me to fathom how these supposedly learned scholars got “God the Son” out of the words “Son of God”.

Mike,

Can you fathom that some manuscripts say “God the only Begotten” in John 1:18?

Would not the expression “God the only Begotten” be equivalent to saying “God the only Son”? Shorten this to “God the Son.”

Jack

February 20, 2011 at 3:36 pm#236621

Blocked

Hi Jack,

Those mss say “only begotten god”. And they say this immediately following “NO ONE has EVER seen God”.

There is a clear distinction made between THE God, who no one has ever seen, and “only begotten god”, who many, including the writer of this text, had “seen with our eyes and touched with our hands”.

It is also clear from the text that this one they DID see is the one who made Him who no one has ever seen known.

It is saying that A mighty one has made THE Mighty One known to us. If Jesus was THE God, then the statement that no one has ever seen God is a lie.

Also, THE God is from everlasting to everlasting……….He is NOT begotten in any meaning of the word.

Jack, honor and praise the only begotten god who came to make THE UNBEGOTTEN GOD known. Give him all of the love and respect and glory that he deserves. Just don't confuse him with the One who BEGOT him in the first place, and then ANOINTED him as our High Priest, SET him up on Zion as our King, and SENT him to earth to be our Savior.

peace and love,
mike

February 20, 2011 at 11:41 pm#236657

Participant

t8 said:

Quote

The reason of course is that when we say “HIM” we refer to a person, not the nature or substance. e.g., when people refer to me as HIM, they are not talking about my flesh nature, but are referring to me as a person.

When trinitarians say “Him” in reference to God as a trinitythey are acknowledging God as a corporate unity in the same way we refer to mankind as “him.” Paul said that the new man is made from TWO (Jew and Gentile) and Paul called the two “him” (Ephesians 2).

God called Adam and Eve “the Adam” and “he” (Genesis 1). He also called all men “he” (Genesis 6).

February 21, 2011 at 12:05 am#236664

Blocked

Jack,

That's a bunch of poppycock. If you were to put your money where your mouth is, you would call God “THEM” and “THEY”.

What is it that stops you? You THINK God is a “THEM”. You PREACH that God is a “THEM”. You are willing to twist any little scripture into TEACHING that God is a “THEM”. So why not take that leap of faith and be the first Trinitarian to start CALLING God a “THEM”?

Could it be because the trinity is the belief in three separate Gods comically masked to fit into a monotheistic belief system? Could it be that by actually CALLING God a “THEM”, your mask will be removed and others will plainly see that you worship three separate Gods?

“Jack, did you pray to God?” “Yes Mike, I prayed to THEM last night.”

See how that simple sentence would turn the heads of those who have been unknowingly tricked into believing a lie? See how when the comical mask is removed, the trinity is clearly revealed to be a case of worshipping three separate Gods? All of a sudden you would be fending off many questions about “THEM” from millions of trinitarians who have only believed what their church has told them without taking the time to look into it.

Jack, aside from God, tell me when you've EVER referred to a group of three separate persons as a “HE” or a “HIM”. Should we all start referring to the twelve apostles as a “HE”?

mike

February 21, 2011 at 12:11 am#236665

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 20 2011,22:38)

Mike said:

Quote

It is hard for me to fathom how these supposedly learned scholars got “God the Son” out of the words “Son of God”.

Mike,

Can you fathom that some manuscripts say “God the only Begotten” in John 1:18?

Would not the expression “God the only Begotten” be equivalent to saying “God the only Son”? Shorten this to “God the Son.”

Jack

Hi Jack,

What do mistranslations have to do with “Truth”?
If you can really read Greek (as you claim),
then you know that translation is FALSE!

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(Google translations) No one seen God at any time;
the only begotten Son, in the bosom of the Father, he hath.

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org …(Eccl.9:12-16)

February 21, 2011 at 12:17 am#236667

Participant

Hi Mike,

Jack and Kieth saying the “Son of God” means “God”
is like SF saying the “Son of God” means the Father.
Yet they will NOT agree together; you wonder why?

February 21, 2011 at 12:33 am#236671

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 21 2011,10:17)

Hi Mike,

Jack and Kieth saying the “Son of God” means “God”
is like SF saying the “Son of God” means the Father.
Yet they will NOT agree together; you wonder why?

Hi Ed,

I agree. Jack and Keith can CLEARLY and LOGICALLY see the fallacy in SF's statement that the Son IS the Father. Yet they are blind to the fallacy in their own claim that the Son OF God is the same God he is the Son OF.

Just so you know, some mss have “huios”, or “son” in John 1:18. But the oldest and best mss have “theos”, or “god”.

It is not a mistranslation, but a case of the KJV translating from a different ms than most Bibles today. The KJV rightly translated “son” from a ms that actually SAID “son”.

But again, it seems the older and better mss that the KJV translators weren't privy to mostly have “god” in 1:18.

peace and love,
mike

February 21, 2011 at 8:45 am#236704

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 21 2011,10:17)

Hi Mike,

Jack and Kieth saying the “Son of God” means “God”
is like SF saying the “Son of God” means the Father.
Yet they will NOT agree together; you wonder why?

It is Jack, Keith and the APOSTLE JOHN who say that Son of God means God (John 5:19).

Son of Man = Man

Son of God = God

February 21, 2011 at 8:55 am#236705

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,10:05)

Jack,

That's a bunch of poppycock. If you were to put your money where your mouth is, you would call God “THEM” and “THEY”.

“Jack, did you pray to God?” “Yes Mike, I prayed to THEM last night.”

Jack, aside from God, tell me when you've EVER referred to a group of three separate persons as a “HE” or a “HIM”. Should we all start referring to the twelve apostles as a “HE”?

mike

Call it “poppycock” all you want Mike. The fact is that God called the man and the woman “the Adam” and “He” and “Him.” Moses called God “US” and “He” and “Him.” All this is written in the SAME context Mike. So take up the issue with Moses.

We should not pray to “Them” because it is not how we are taught in the scriptures to pray. We are taught to pray to the Father in Jesus' name or to Jesus Himself. I would pray to “Them” if that is what God wanted.

Jack

February 21, 2011 at 9:49 am#236706

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 21 2011,18:45)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 21 2011,10:17)

Hi Mike,

Jack and Kieth saying the “Son of God” means “God”
is like SF saying the “Son of God” means the Father.
Yet they will NOT agree together; you wonder why?

It is Jack, Keith and the APOSTLE JOHN who say that Son of God means God (John 5:19).

Son of Man = Man

Son of God = God

Hi Jack,

John 5:19 does not appear to be saying what you 'claim' it is?
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily,
I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth
the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 21, 2011 at 9:50 am#236707

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 21 2011,18:45)

Son of God = God

Hi Jack,

Sons of God = God? …Mmmm??

Rom,8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Children of God = God? …Mmmm??

Rom.8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 21, 2011 at 11:14 am#236713

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 21 2011,19:50)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 21 2011,18:45)

Son of God = God

Hi Jack,

Sons of God = God? …Mmmm??

Rom,8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Children of God = God? …Mmmm??

Rom.8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

We are sons by adoption sir! You conveniently left that part of Paul's statement out of your equation.

Christ is God's only begotten Son.

Begotten = kind = God

February 21, 2011 at 9:36 pm#236739

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 21 2011,05:14)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 21 2011,19:50)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 21 2011,18:45)

Son of God = God

Hi Jack,

Sons of God = God? …Mmmm??

Rom,8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Children of God = God? …Mmmm??

Rom.8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

We are sons by adoption sir! You conveniently left that part of Paul's statement out of your equation.

Christ is God's only begotten Son.

Begotten = kind = God

Jack

Exacly. Mike always talks about using logic to understand God but he doesn't use one of the very basics of logic and that is…

“Every seed bears after its own kind”.

Dogs begets Dog.

Ducks begets Duck.

Humans begets Human.

God begets God.

That is why this “identity – quality” explanation of t8s concerning the use of the word “God” is a bunch of bunk especially since they cannot show us qualitatively how Jesus is less than God the Father.

They would have no problem explaining how Moses, Angels, judges, rulers, the devil, idols etc is not qualitatively God.

'Qualitatively” there is only 1 God, all the rest are “devils, satan, idols, judges, so called gods, which are a part of the creation by and through whom Jesus created.

They do not know “What” Jesus is because they do not know Jesus. Mike says he isn't a man no more but some sort of “Spirit” being which he calls “his god” yet he is not God to him which can only mean he is some sort of “Demi god” or “Half breed” of both God and man.

t8 has never explained what Jesus is except to say he is not God but he is not a mere man either, so what is he because if he is the “Only Begotten Son” of God then that can only mean he is like the Father in every way?

They do not want to understand this simple logic. The scriptures speak of men stumbling over Jesus who is the Rock.

So in essence to say that the Son of God is not God like the Father is to say he is not really the Fathers “Only Begotten Son” or they would be giving him the same honour as they do the Father or acknowledging he is in everyway like God the Father as a human son is human like his Father.

But as you can see it is a downward spiral to belittling or degrading the Son of God to something less than his Father.

Once again if Jesus is the “Image of the invisible God” which means he is the “visible image of God”, to have an image of him that is less than God is idolatry.

To see that Jesus is less than the “radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,” Heb 1:3…is to have a false image of the Fathers being and his Glory.

This means that when we see Jesus as the radiance of the Fathers Glory then we see that he shares Gods Glory for he is the esssence of that Glory. And to see him (Jesus) as the “exact representation of (God the Father's) being” is to see him as God.

If they see him as less than God the Father then they are not seeing God the Father in the Son and neither are they seeing God the Son in the Father.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me (God), Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen (God) the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us (God) the Father?

I hear Jesus words saying to many…

Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known (God) me, (fill in the name), he that hath seen me hath seen (God); and how sayest thou then, Shew us (God). John 14:9

If you don't know Jesus as God then you don't know the Father who is God. If you don't know the Father as God then you won't know Jesus as God because you cannot know the one without knowing the other.

So men look at Jesus and like Philip says “Show us God”, but Jesus would say “You are looking at and hearing the voice of God”.

Blessings WJ

February 21, 2011 at 10:03 pm#236741

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2011,18:33)

Mike and ED

You guys deny the law of “Every seed bearing after its own kind”.

If Jesus is the “Only Begotten Son” of the Father then that means that all the Father is in nature is what the Son is.

Now listen real close so you guys don't let this pass your understanding.

Dog begets Dog (who is in nature Dog).

Duck begets Duck. (who is in nature Duck)

Human begets Human. (who is in nature Human)

God begets God. (who is in nature God)

“Please tell us “what kind of creature is Jesus” if he is the literal and Only Begotten Son of God?

“Do you know what and who he is?“

Talk about “CLEAR AND LOGICAL FALLACIES”.

February 21, 2011 at 10:32 pm#236744

Participant

Keith said:

Quote

Keith,

Exactly!

One must believe that Jesus is God's monogenes Son in order to be saved. To deny that Jesus is God is to deny that He is God's monogenes. BTW, the genes part of the word monogenes is the word “genao” which the Septuagint uses in Genesis where it says, '”Let each bring forth after its own KIND.”

ED J has deceitfully handled the word of God in his use of a passage which talks about sonship by adoption and comparing that to Christ's Sonship. What a shame! We are tring to save these guys from damnation and they will not hear us.

Jack

February 21, 2011 at 11:44 pm#236746