Proclaimer Mikeboll64 vs JB2U

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2014,09:10)

Gene, if God chose you to rebel in the last hour before your death, and when you died, you went to the grave to await the great judgement to be judged as wicked, then according to what you believe and preach, you could not complain about it, but accept it because it fits right into your view and teaching.

T8………If God were to send to me a deluding Spirit (intellect) it would cause me to be deceived, as he does all who received not NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH> When He sent a Evil Spirit unto King SAUL He did what it caused him to do. Where was Free will in those actions. If what we Do is “ONLY” By OUR OWN So-called Wills that are “FREE” Then how does demons take over Human Minds, and cause them to throw themselves into fires and so forth.

Where does any scripture say John the Baptist had a free will Choice, to be John the Baptist, or Jesus to be the Messiah, Or Jeremiah to be, a Prophet to the nations, I have told you before and tell you again, There exist no such as a WILL that is FREE “ITSELF”. All will are driven by some kind of force of thinking and therefore are NOT THEMSELVES “FREE”, You and most here are mixing up by God giving us “LIBERTY” to EXERCISE our Spiritually, Captivated WILLS, with the WILLS themselves being “FREE”, No Such WILL EXISTS, NOT even GOD'S WILL is a “FREE” Will , why? because scripture says. God does “ALL” Thing after the “COUNCIL” of HIS Will. If you understood what “Councils” the Wills , which is Spirit Intellects in the mind, then you could easily see WILLS are NOT “FREE” at all, but guided by the Spirits operating in the Minds.

If you believe it's all up to your, So-called FREE WILLS. then why do you even need God to attain to righteousness, when according to you, your are the Source of it, by you so-called “Free” Will thinking, and God is not able to blind a person because, a person is in control of his or here own Wills, and Satan cant not even influence them, because they are completely “FREE” and not capable of being captivated ACCORDING to YOU, YOU ARE YOU OWN SAVIOR, who needs, God or Jesus when You can do it by your own SO-called FREEWILL.

Fact is, all FREE WILLERS HATE the SOVEREIGNTY of GOD, and do not believe, “ALL” thing ARE Possible with him. They do not need GOD to CREATE any thing, in them, The can do it themselves by their own WILLS, which they believe is completely “FREE”, OF GOD, that is.

As far as your opening Statement here goes, If God were to cause Me to be cast into the grave and wait for the great Judgement of the wicked, then there is nothing, i could do about it anyway. I am not so stupid to even think, I could overrule his decisions, no matter what my Will may want. Not saying i would not ask for mercy and forgiveness , but i have already done that many times, in fact all the time, i ask Him for forgiveness and still do. I put no trust in my self, much less in my own WILL>

I believe like Jesus said “Do not fear them that can Kill the body and do nothing after that, but fear him who can “DESTROY” “BOTH” BODY and SOUL “IN the GRAVE”.

I have very high reverence and respect for the LORD MY God, and His POWER to CREATE RIGHTEOUSNESS “IN” ME or to DESTROY ME. Rather i will, what i Will, or not, I am In his Hands, Not my own hands, I can not find IN ME, the POWER to DO RIGHTEOUSNESS, I rely totally on Him, I want to put MY WILL to DEATH and JUST completely TRUST IN GOD “ALONE and Do HIS WILL, NOT MINE. That is where we are different T8, you believe your so-called Will ,that is “FREE”, can save you it seems, well time will tell won't it? IMO

peace and lvoe to yuo and yours……………………..gene

February 20, 2014 at 6:53 pm#371535

Participant

3.1 sam. 2:6

1Sa 2:7
The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.

1Sa 2:8
He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.

1Sa 2:9
He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

1Sa 2:10
The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.

It obvious to me that 1 sam 2:6 means that he Lord will bless his people and judge the wicked. It also means that he is able to humble the proud, and restore them if they repent.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 20, 2014 at 7:41 pm#371536

Participant

The scripture that you quoted below is speaking of the judgment rendered against Egypt as God was delivering the nation of Israel from bondage. Evil angels are evil messengers.

Quote

Psa 78:49
He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 21, 2014 at 12:03 am#371542

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 20 2014,07:28)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2014,08:10)

Hi Wakeup,

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

We all know that “darkness” is the opposite of “light”, right?

But what is the opposite of “peace”?

Here are four of the words the KJV uses as a translation of the Hebrew word “ra”………

1. Evil
2. Trouble
3. Adversity
4. Affliction

Which one of those four is NOT the opposite of “peace”?

Mike B.

War and turbulence is the opposite to peace.

Mike; If we start changing the wordings of scripture,
then anyone can interpret scriptures as pleased.
So where can the line be drawn?
It can go on and on and on.

wakeup.

not men peace but godly peace

try again

February 21, 2014 at 12:30 am#371550

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 19 2014,19:28)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2014,08:10)

Hi Wakeup,

Isaiah 45:7 KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

We all know that “darkness” is the opposite of “light”, right?

But what is the opposite of “peace”?

Here are four of the words the KJV uses as a translation of the Hebrew word “ra”………

1. Evil
2. Trouble
3. Adversity
4. Affliction

Which one of those four is NOT the opposite of “peace”?

Mike B.

War and turbulence is the opposite to peace.

Mike; If we start changing the wordings of scripture,
then anyone can interpret scriptures as pleased.
So where can the line be drawn?
It can go on and on and on.

wakeup.

“Trouble”, “adversity”, and “affliction” are also opposites of “peace”, Wakeup.

“Evil” is NOT.

I agree with you that we all can't go around changing scriptures to suit our personal preferences, but this is not a case of doing that.

The fact of the matter is that the Hebrew word in Isaiah 45:7 is “ra”. And the fact of the matter is that the KJV translates that Hebrew word as “adversity”, “trouble”, and “affliction” other places in their Bible.

Seeing that those three words ARE opposites of “peace”, then one of them would have been a much better translation of “ra” in Isaiah 45:7.

First of all, it is clear from the context that God is listing opposites: “light/darkness”, “peace/ ? “.

And “evil” is NOT an opposite of “peace”. But the other three words the KJV also translates “ra” as ARE all opposites of “peace”.

Secondly, it is absurd to think that God, who is love, actually CREATED the act of “evil”.

It is a bad translation, and the KJV people should have translated as “affliction”, “adversity”, or “trouble”, like they translated the same exact Hebrew word elsewhere in their Bible.

And finally, opting for a better word in Isaiah 45:7 is NOT “changing the wordings of scripture”. That scripture was never intended to teach that Jehovah created evil…. so it wouldn't be a matter of “changing scripture”.

It would instead be a matter of changing a flawed TRANSLATION of that scripture.

February 21, 2014 at 1:06 am#371560

Wakeup

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2014,10:30)

Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 19 2014,19:28)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2014,08:10)

Hi Wakeup,

Isaiah 45:7 KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

We all know that “darkness” is the opposite of “light”, right?

But what is the opposite of “peace”?

Here are four of the words the KJV uses as a translation of the Hebrew word “ra”………

1. Evil
2. Trouble
3. Adversity
4. Affliction

Which one of those four is NOT the opposite of “peace”?

Mike B.

War and turbulence is the opposite to peace.

Mike; If we start changing the wordings of scripture,
then anyone can interpret scriptures as pleased.
So where can the line be drawn?
It can go on and on and on.

wakeup.

“Trouble”, “adversity”, and “affliction” are also opposites of “peace”, Wakeup.

“Evil” is NOT.

I agree with you that we all can't go around changing scriptures to suit our personal preferences, but this is not a case of doing that.

Seeing that those three words ARE opposites of “peace”, then one of them would have been a much better translation of “ra” in Isaiah 45:7.

First of all, it is clear from the context that God is listing opposites: “light/darkness”, “peace/ ? “.

And “evil” is NOT an opposite of “peace”. But the other three words the KJV also translates “ra” as ARE all opposites of “peace”.

Secondly, it is absurd to think that God, who is love, actually CREATED the act of “evil”.

It is a bad translation, and the KJV people should have translated as “affliction”, “adversity”, or “trouble”, like they translated the same exact Hebrew word elsewhere in their Bible.

It would instead be a matter of changing a flawed TRANSLATION of that scripture.

Mike B.

Affliction
adversity
trouble
war
murder
oppression.
These are all evil, ra is not an english word.
I have an english bible.

What about the other scriptures I posted?
Why have you no comment about them?

wakeup.

February 21, 2014 at 6:07 pm#371599

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 21 2014,04:53)

3.1 sam. 2:6

1Sa 2:7
The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.

1Sa 2:9
He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

It obvious to me that 1 sam 2:6 means that he Lord will bless his people and judge the wicked. It also means that he is able to humble the proud, and restore them if they repent.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty……. Those Scriptures you and wakeup and i posted are Absolutely right, many have a hip pocket God that only fit their renditions of Him, He is NOT TRULY SOVEREIGN IN “ALL” Things to them. They do not realize, even and i even posted that the exact word, used for EVIL in Isaiah, is the exact same word used for the word describing the tree of knowledge of GOOD and “EVIL” that GOD placed in the garden of Eden.

They thank Good can only bring good on us and not evil, He is the JUST JUDGE of ALL the EARTH and can do Just as He pleases in everything to bring about his purposes, Scripture plainly say God sent and EVIL SPIRIT to King Saul and all spirit's are created by him, you would think, they could realize that if God sent an EVIL Spirit to Saul, that he certainly brought EVIL into HIS LIFE, by that very act alone.

They have no FEAR of GOD, they have GOD in a BOX that fit them, and their dogmas. God does what ever he WILL he creates both Good and EVIL, and uses both to bring about His WILL, in ALL THINGS.

If He did not KEEP THE FEET of HIS SAINTS they would fall if it were left to them ALONE. For it is GOD that WORKS IN HIS SAINTS “BOTH” TO “WILL” and do of HIS GOOD PLEASURE> IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

February 22, 2014 at 2:57 pm#371608

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 22 2014,04:07)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 21 2014,04:53)

3.1 sam. 2:6

1Sa 2:7
The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.

1Sa 2:9
He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

It obvious to me that 1 sam 2:6 means that he Lord will bless his people and judge the wicked. It also means that he is able to humble the proud, and restore them if they repent.

Love in Christ,
Marty

They have no FEAR of GOD, they have GOD in a BOX that fit them, and their dogmas. God does what ever he WILL he creates both Good and EVIL, and uses both to bring about His WILL, in ALL THINGS.

If He did not KEEP THE FEET of HIS SAINTS they would fall if it were left to them ALONE. For it is GOD that WORKS IN HIS SAINTS “BOTH” TO “WILL” and do of HIS GOOD PLEASURE> IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

Hi Gene:

I chose to write just a simple response to you this morning, but I could have chosen not to because by efforts seem to be futile. But God did not force me to respond to you or not. The choice was mine all by myself.

The scriptures that you posted are definitely correct, but the way that you understand is not.

And let wakeup speak for himself.

I may respond to this more later, but right now I have other things to do.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 22, 2014 at 5:03 pm#371613

Participant

Marty……..Yes, but that decision was not based on a WILL the was “FREE”, even though your action was, Get it?, Now let use an example , I will set before you three pieces of Pie. One a Cherry , one an apple , one a Peach, and asK you to pick one, so let say you “FREELY” Chose the Apple pie, Now was that choice based on a WILL, that was “FREE you made, or was it am INFLUENCED WILLS CHOICE?. You would say it was a FREE “WILL”, Choice , I would say No, it was not, because your choice was based on a PAST Experience, and it drove you to chose that piece of pie, so that choice of yours did not come from a WILL that was FREE, even though you had “FREEDOM to Choose it.

ALL WILLS are DRIVEN MARTY, by something, either good or evil, and because God allows us the “FREEDOM or LIBERTY to Exercise our “Captivated” Wills, does Not in any Way mean, the WILL'S “THEMSELVES” are “FREE. If they were FREE they could not be “INFLUENCED”, In fact scripture says, Jesus came to set the captives FREE, so if he set us FREE, then what was he setting us FREE from if not, our wrong thinking and if a person is thinking wrong, he “WILLS” wrong also, because his thinking is what “DRIVES His WILL, and that MAKES him held Captive, and His will also is.

So can't you see your Choice, not to or to respond, was never from a Will itself being Free ,because it was an “INFLUENCED” Choice and therefore never a FREE Choice , but a “influenced “WILL, that was at LIBERTY to “Express itself” in the way you did. You as many are getting the “LIBERTY” to “EXPRESS” and EXERCISE OUR “INFLUENCED” WILLS, mixed up with us having Will's “themselves' being FREE, if that were the case then nothing could influence our decisions, and hence, our WILLS. The very WORD WILL means a DESIRE and therefore, it is a DRIVEN WILL. In Fact show any scripture that says, we have WILLS Themselves that are “FREE”. Would like to see it.

peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene

February 22, 2014 at 7:07 pm#371633

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 20 2014,18:06)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2014,10:30)

Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 19 2014,19:28)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2014,08:10)

Hi Wakeup,

Isaiah 45:7 KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

We all know that “darkness” is the opposite of “light”, right?

But what is the opposite of “peace”?

Here are four of the words the KJV uses as a translation of the Hebrew word “ra”………

1. Evil
2. Trouble
3. Adversity
4. Affliction

Which one of those four is NOT the opposite of “peace”?

Mike B.

War and turbulence is the opposite to peace.

Mike; If we start changing the wordings of scripture,
then anyone can interpret scriptures as pleased.
So where can the line be drawn?
It can go on and on and on.

wakeup.

“Trouble”, “adversity”, and “affliction” are also opposites of “peace”, Wakeup.

“Evil” is NOT.

I agree with you that we all can't go around changing scriptures to suit our personal preferences, but this is not a case of doing that.

Seeing that those three words ARE opposites of “peace”, then one of them would have been a much better translation of “ra” in Isaiah 45:7.

First of all, it is clear from the context that God is listing opposites: “light/darkness”, “peace/ ? “.

And “evil” is NOT an opposite of “peace”. But the other three words the KJV also translates “ra” as ARE all opposites of “peace”.

Secondly, it is absurd to think that God, who is love, actually CREATED the act of “evil”.

It is a bad translation, and the KJV people should have translated as “affliction”, “adversity”, or “trouble”, like they translated the same exact Hebrew word elsewhere in their Bible.

It would instead be a matter of changing a flawed TRANSLATION of that scripture.

Mike B.

Affliction
adversity
trouble
war
murder
oppression.
These are all evil, ra is not an english word.
I have an english bible.

What about the other scriptures I posted?
Why have you no comment about them?

wakeup.

Wakeup,

As USUAL, your post doesn't even TRY to refute the things I posted. Instead, as USUAL, you just blow right over those things, without so much as a comment about them.

Saying that “ra” is not an English word doesn't shed one ounce of light on this subject, as it is CLEAR to all that “ra” is a HEBREW word that is translated INTO English in the KJV as “affliction”, “adversity”, and “trouble” – among other things.

As for your “other scriptures”, I HAVE answered one of two of them, to which I received no response FROM YOU.

I won't ever address a list of 10 or 20 scriptures at once for you. But feel free to list ONE scripture at a time, and I will be happy to show you how that ONE scripture doesn't say one thing about God “creating evil”.

Ready, set, GO!

February 22, 2014 at 7:11 pm#371634

Blocked

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 22 2014,07:57)

Hi Gene:

The scriptures that you posted are definitely correct, but the way that you understand is not.

And let wakeup speak for himself.

:cool:

February 23, 2014 at 3:18 am#371655

Participant

Hi Gene:

Apparently, both God and Jesus had “a will”, and we were created in the image of God.

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

The first Adam was made a living soul.

Quote

Gen 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Quote

World English Dictionary

soul (səʊl)

— n
1. the spirit or immaterial part of man, the seat of human personality, intellect, will, and emotions, regarded as an entity that survives the body after deathRelated: pneumatic
2. Christianity the spiritual part of a person, capable of redemption from the power of sin through divine grace

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 23, 2014 at 4:06 am#371656

Wakeup

Participant

If I was temped by a gorgeous lady;
It is my decision to take her or leave her.
If I have fallen for her temptation,it was my own decision.
Therefore I have sinned against God;because that was not God's decision.

wakeup.

February 23, 2014 at 4:44 pm#371663

Participant

To All……..Now you have moved this argument to, that i am saying we do not have a WILL, that is Not the Point here I perfectly well know we all have will, the question He are those WILL “FREE” Not one scripture Posted by anyone say they ARE “FREE, but every thing posted is about a driven will and that is hardly a description of a WILL being “ITSELF” FREE I have never said God does not give us Liberty to exercise our “CAPTIVATED Will'S” FREELY now have I? So anyone show me one scripture that say a WILL itself is FREE, and i mean FREE of any INFLUENCE if indeed the WILL “ITSELF is truly free.

Wakeup your decision will be made by what “influences” you the MOST, not by a “so-called” WILL that is FREE. Now if it is based on what is INFLUENCING you the MOST, it is hardly FREE now is it. Now if WILL were free from Influences , then why did Jesus say “ not MY will , but thy WILL be done. Was it not because, what was “influencing”, his decision, was greater then his WILL was?

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………gene

February 23, 2014 at 5:13 pm#371665

Blocked

Gene,

Are you saying that if I am “influenced” by my rumbling stomach to eat some food, it was not of my “FREE will” that I ate the food, but of my “INFLUENCED will”?

Because if that is what this is all about, I'd say you're being a little bit obstinate, and nit-picky.

February 23, 2014 at 5:15 pm#371666

Blocked

Wakeup? Ready, set, GO?

February 23, 2014 at 6:10 pm#371672

Wakeup

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 24 2014,02:44)

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………gene

GeneB.

Jesus was simply leaving it all to His Father.
That decision also was His own.
Jesus as a man could have refused to die.
Some followers of Jesus left him by own will.
******

Marty; are you still going to comment to my list of evil
God can do?

Revelation 2:23 ***And I will kill her children with death***;

and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

wakeup.

February 23, 2014 at 6:46 pm#371683

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 23 2014,11:10)

Marty; are you still going to comment to my list of evil
God can do?

I saw Marty comment on a couple of them – just like I did, Wakeup.

Perhaps Marty is like me, and waiting for you to post ONE scripture at a time, so we can show you – ONE AT A TIME – how not one of those scriptures say God created evil.

Ready, set, GO!

February 23, 2014 at 7:29 pm#371687

Participant

Hi Wakeup:

I have been commenting on the scriptures about the evil that God can do, but the list was quite long, and I don't have time to sit and research all of the scriptures that you posted at one sitting.

However, I believe that they will be similar because God is either causing tribulation to his children in order to get to repent or he is rendering judgment to His enemies.

I asked you to read Deut. 28 and you would understand the type of evil that God may do. He is Holy and it is impossible for Him to sin. Again, the scriptures state that Jesus is the express image of God's person, and Jesus has stated that through his works of obedience to God's Word, we have seen God's character manifest through his life.

Did Jesus sin? Also, as I have told you before, judgment for the wicked has already occurred in the Old Testament. In the present church age, from the time of the ministry of Jesus here on earth until he comes for the church, judgment for those who were not saved at that time for those that are alive at his coming for the church, and 1000 years later, for those who have died in their sins during this era.

Is God doing evil because He punishes the wicked for their rejection of his love and instead, persist in practicing sin?

I will get to each one of your scriptures as I have time.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 23, 2014 at 7:38 pm#371689