Proclaimer Mikeboll64 vs JB2U

Participant

Hi Gene:

You say:

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Marty……….You brought up a good point, On the day of Pentecost When the Holy spirit was Poured out , and the Apostle Peter spoke to them , It was the Spirit that opened there Minds and Hearts, to the Truth, and it caused them to be Pricked in there hearts.

None of this was a result of a Will the was FREE, or a Choice of man, but of the Spirit of God. These same people a few weeks earlier were saying, Crucify Him, why such a Change, was it a “FREEWILL” thing from themselves, or the HOLY SPIRIT (Spirit of Truth) that convicted them of what they had Done, and the automatic result was they were put in a repentant state of Mind.

They did no have to repent later they simply were already repentant or they would have never been “PRICKED” in there HEARTS in the first place. It all was by the “REVELATION” of TRUTH FROM GOD, into their minds, it had nothing to do with them doing it all by there own FREE-WILLS> but by the work of GODS SPIRIT being poured out on them. IMO

While it is true that is the Holy Spirit through the Word of God that the Apostle Peter preached convicted those men that they had done wrong in taking part in the crucifixion of the Lord, and they were sorry about what they did, but repentance is more than being sorry. In the Greek it means “a change of mind”, but more precisely it means “a change of heart”, and it means that they were practicing sin and now realizing what they had done they wanted to know what they had to do to make it right, and that is a choice. Peter told them to “repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of their sins and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. If they had already repented when their “hearts were pricked”, why would he tell them to repent? And to be baptized requires an action which requires a choice.

And you say:

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Marty, we are His (God's) workmanship, being “created” unto good works. This also proves my point, IMO

That is not exactly what the scripture states. It says this:

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Eph 2:8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And so, it has already been stated that salvation is a “free gift” in that we are saved by “faith so that it might be by grace”, but when we come to the Lord, we obey God's Word, and that is the “good works that we were created to do”, not being created, but if you mean that we make mistakes along the way and we learn by these mistakes, by being corrected by our Father, and by studying the Word of God so that we can operated in it more efficiently, then yes, in that sense, we are being perfected. But obeying the Word of God involves choices, and being corrected involves a willingness to be corrected, and a choice to study the Word. All involves choices whether to do or not to do.

This is what the epistle of James stated:

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Jam 2:14

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jam 2:15

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

Jam 2:16

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Jam 2:17

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jam 2:18

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works

And so, in Christ Jesus, when we see one of our brothers in Christ, especially our brothers in Christ, and we see that he has a need and we are able to help, he says that we should help him, and that requires a choice to do or not to do.

And as far as the Potter having power over the clay. This is meaning the scripture that to which you refer. God was getting ready to send the nation of Israel into the Babylonian captivity and he was letting them know that he would do this unless they repented.

Here is the scripture:

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Jer 18:6

O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Jer 18:7

At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

Jer 18:8

If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9

And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jer 18:10

If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Jer 18:11

Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Again, God was asking them to repent to avoid the evil that he was about to bring upon them. It was their choice whether or not to do this, and God also had a choice in making the decision one way or another.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 15, 2014 at 3:52 pm#371253

Participant

Marty…….So on the day of Pentacost all the sudden these Three thousand or so People Just By there own “FREE WILL Choices decided to Change there Minds on there own is that what you get out of the Day of Pentecost or was it as the Prophet Joule said, In the latter days I (God), shall pour forth of my Spirit on all Flesh. do you actually believe that had nothing to do with those people repenting. They just came to that understanding on their own and decided to repent as a result of their own “FREEWILL” Choices. If that were the case then Why Bother with the Holy Spirit being poured out in the first place and why did they not Chose on their own to Repent, When Jesus and the apostles were talking to them before, seeing it was a matter of ones own self, to make the decision to Repent. Why couldn't they have done it before. instead of crucifying Jesus. They all heard the Gospel being preached to them by Jesus and the disciples, Why did Jesus tell the disciples they did not chose him , he chose them.

Also the scripture i gave you about the Potter with power over the clay was not the one in Jeremiah, it was What the Apostle Paul was saying, so please look up and tell us what he was saying OK. N ow let read this.

Rom 9:10….> And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one even by our father Issac; (11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the “PURPOSE” of GOD, ACCORDING to “ELECTION” might stand; “NOT: of WORKS, but of him the Calls;) (12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (this was before they were ever born Marty). (14) What shall we say then? is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid

Now let continue Marty…> Rom 9:15…> For he says to Moses, I (God) will have Mercy on whom I will Have mercy, and i will have compassion on whom i will have compassion. (16) So then it is “NOT” of Him that “WILLS” nor of him that “RUNS” but of God that shows Mercy. (17) For the Scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I (GOD) raised you up, that I (GOD) might show “MY” POWER “IN” YOU , and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. (18) Therefore has He (God) mercy on whom He will, and whom He (GOD) Will He (God ) hardens. (19) You will say unto me , why does he yet find fault? For who has resisted “HIS” “WILL”? (20) Nay but O Man who are YOU that “REPLIES” against GOD? Shall the thing formed say to him the “FORMED” IT, Why have you made me thus? (21) Has not the “POTTER” POWER OVER the CLAY, of the “SAME” LUMP to make ONE VESSEL unto HONOR, and another unto DISHONOR.? What if God, willing to show his wrath , and make his power known endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he (God) had “BEFORE” “PREPARED” unto Glory.

I think this clarifies my point Marty.

Peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

February 15, 2014 at 5:01 pm#371257

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 16 2014,01:52)

Also the scripture i gave you about the Potter with power over the clay was not the one in Jeremiah, it was What the Apostle Paul was saying, so please look up and tell us what he was saying OK.

peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene

Hi Gene:

You are a hard one to convince. I said to you before, that the gospel is preached to every creature by that person who is preaching the Word of God, by the Holy Ghost, and so, yes, it is the Holy Ghost that convicts a person of sin, and that through the gospel, they can receive the gift of God, by faith, believing the gospel with a repentant heart.

On the day of Pentecost the Apostle Peter preached the Word of God, and they believed the gospel with a repentant heart.

Here is the scripture:

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Act 2:40

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Act 2:41

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Jesus said that he chose the Apostles and they did not choose him because he knew that they would believe, and follow him when he called them to do so, and he he knew that Judas would betray him. Judas rejected him after he had been chosen. His choice.

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Jhn 6:65

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jhn 6:66

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

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Jhn 6:64

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:68

Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Jhn 6:69

And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Jhn 6:70

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Jhn 6:71

He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 15, 2014 at 5:26 pm#371258

Participant

Marty……..Again your ignoring the point is that we were talking about here , it was that a man on his “OWN” So called “FREE” WILL Choices does all the choosing and repenting as a result of His own doing . I say that is not true, Repentance is a Work of GOD “IN” a Person , Those people were “PRICKED” IN there HEART of the WRONG they Had Done BY the SPIRIT of TRUTH being Poured out on them, and That is what caused them to Repent , it had nothing to do with their own doing, by their own so-called Will Choices, and that is my point. It all was a Work of GOD bringing it all about, and not a Work of Man by His “WILL”> IMO

Sorry you committed before i had time to finish my above post, pleas go back and reread it brother.

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene

February 15, 2014 at 6:57 pm#371271

Participant

Those men that received the Holy Spirit
*made a decision* to come together.
Therefore only them have received.
Others did not make that decision.
They have either refused the calling,or not called.
One can refuse the Holy Spirit.
One can saddened the Holy Spirit,by choice.
The jews Have refused the invite to the party.
So the gentiles were invited,and they came.

wakeup.

February 15, 2014 at 9:32 pm#371281

Participant

Well, Gene, the following scripture is easy to explain:

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We already established the fact that salvation is not of works, but it is by “faith so that might be by grace”, and yes, it is God who calls us into a relationship with Him through the gospel. The scriptures state to Abraham:

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Gen 21:12

And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

And so, We have already discussed that God has already seen who would believe and who would not. Esau represents those who will have rejected the gospel.

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Hbr 12:16

Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Hbr 12:17

For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

But back to the basics. I am sure you have heard this scripture somewhere before:

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Jhn 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:17

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jhn 3:18

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jhn 3:19

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

And the following scriptures are not so easy to understand, and so, I will have to ask you to explain them to me in light of the scripture that I posted above.

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Now let continue Marty…> Rom 9:15…> For he says to Moses, I (God) will have Mercy on whom I will Have mercy, and i will have compassion on whom i will have compassion. (16) So then it is “NOT” of Him that “WILLS” nor of him that “RUNS” but of God that shows Mercy. (17) For the Scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I (GOD) raised you up, that I (GOD) might show “MY” POWER “IN” YOU , and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. (18) Therefore has He (God) mercy on whom He will, and whom He (GOD) Will He (God ) hardens. (19) You will say unto me , why does he yet find fault? For who has resisted “HIS” “WILL”? (20) Nay but O Man who are YOU that “REPLIES” against GOD? Shall the thing formed say to him the “FORMED” IT, Why have you made me thus? (21) Has not the “POTTER” POWER OVER the CLAY, of the “SAME” LUMP to make ONE VESSEL unto HONOR, and another unto DISHONOR.? What if God, willing to show his wrath , and make his power known endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he (God) had “BEFORE” “PREPARED” unto Glory.

I think this clarifies my point Marty.

You say, that it clarifies your point, and so, please tell me how it does that. I know that Pharaoh was an unbeliever.

I believe that what Paul is saying in the scriptues that state that it is not of he that wills or he who runs, but God who shows the mercy:

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Rom 9:6
¶
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:7

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

The some of the nation of Israel sought salvation as if were by the works of the Law, and so, it is not of “he who wills or he who runs”. Salvation is by “faith” whether under the Law of Moses or through Christ. Ultimately, Christ is the propitiation for the sins of every one who has obeyed God from the beginning of creation until Jesus comes for the church. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

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Rom 9:30

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Rom 9:31

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Rom 9:32

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

This is what Jesus came preaching:

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Mar 1:14
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

This involves a choice, believe and be saved, believe not and be damned, as in John 3:16-19.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 16, 2014 at 12:52 am#371283

Participant

Marty……..True Faith is a gift of GOD. It is not from the self. It is brought about by the Spirit of God. For God gives to every man a “MEASURE” of Faith. It takes faith to believe in the first place, belief is not by the FREEWILL of a persons own self. IT takes a “revelation” from God, in the MIND of a PERSON.

Scripture says, for when they ( Adam and Eve ) knew God they “Glorified Him not As God ( the power they leaned on and trusted in) so he (God) turned them over (WHERE?) “IN” THEIR MINDS” to do those things that were unseemly . Notice where God turned them over in “THEIR MINDS”. . So does God have control of our minds to allow or prevent us from different things, I say he does.

As far as the Scriptures I posted in Romans they speak “clearly” themselves. The worst thing a man can think is that he controls his own destiny by a will that is “Free” when no such WILL exists . Satan want us to believe our Will are FREE from God and we control our own destiny. Nothing could be further from the truth that mind set only serves the self and creates rebellion against God. Satan wants us to believe we can chose our own ways, apart from Gods influence so we can give “ourselves”, the Glory of our salvation instead of Giving God the Glory of saving us..

Jesus said this The Son of Man can do”NOTHING” OF “HIMSELF” the father in him does the “WORKS” Jesus also said he “ALWAYS” done those things that “pleased” the father and also , “Not my WILL but thy WILL be done”, in fact there is no word in scripture that speaks of a Will being FREE at all. The only place the word freewill appears in Scripture is concerning a “voluntary” offering, a person decides to give God on his own, but that is not talking about the persons Will itself. IMO

Peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene

February 16, 2014 at 2:52 am#371286

Participant

Gene, I don't have time to go into depth on this tonight, but, no, God does not have control over our minds.

And how do you know that Paul was talking about Adam and Eve in Romans 1. God gave those who would not listen to his instruction or correction to a reprobate mind, and let them do whatever they wanted to do. They had a choice. Did Adam and Eve have a choice in the garden of Eden?

Salvation is a free gift from God, yes. The gospel is preached to every creature. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The sower soeth the Word, the soil is the person's heart. Do you suppose that when they hear the gospel all they have to do is believe, and just continue to live the life of sin that they were in when they heard the gospel? No, believing is not a matter of a “mental assent”. It requires accepting the free gift by acknowledging your sin, and repenting, turning away from that in your heart, and following that change an action showing that there has been repentance. James states that “faith without works is dead”, and that “even devils believe and they tremble.

Yes, it was the Father, by the Holy Ghost doing the work through Jesus, because he did only what the Father showed him, but did Jesus obey God even unto death on the cross or not? Not my will but thine be done. Yes, Jesus did not necessarily want to suffer on the cross the way that he did, but it was the only way that man could be redeemed. If Jesus had sinned, he would have not overcome the devil, because the wages of sin is death, and death is spiritual separation from God. Because he overcame sin and death, we also in the body of Christ are able to do so by obeying His Word and by His blood that keeps us in right standing with God when we fall short of perfect obedience.

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Hbr 5:8

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And so, to be perfected do we have to obey him or not? Do we have a choice to do this or does God force us to obey?

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 16, 2014 at 3:13 am#371287

Participant

This is the reason why:
God created good and evil,so men can make *a choice*.
This is the reason why God put the tree of good and evil in the garden;so Adam and Eve can make a *choice*.

God calls us to come,and some will come,and some
will not come. Jesus knocks on the door;some will open and some will not open.

But dont get confused;God knows ahead who will come,
and who will refuse to come.
Some refused to come because they are happy with all the material things they posses. They feel of no need for God.

The true followers will be fed;and will grow,and bear fruits.

Yes;God draws them;but we must make our own decision,
To come and to stay. Some came and then leave.
Some leave and then came back.
Solomon came;but then the tempter came, and He was tempted,and He decided to followed the lusts of his flesh.

wakeup.

February 16, 2014 at 1:03 pm#371298

Participant

Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 16 2014,13:13)

This is the reason why:
God created good and evil,so men can make *a choice*.
This is the reason why God put the tree of good and evil in the garden;so Adam and Eve can make a *choice*.

God calls us to come,and some will come,and some
will not come. Jesus knocks on the door;some will open and some will not open.

But dont get confused;God knows ahead who will come,
and who will refuse to come.
Some refused to come because they are happy with all the material things they posses. They feel of no need for God.

The true followers will be fed;and will grow,and bear fruits.

wakeup.

no, God did not create evil. To disobey His Commands is the cause of all evil, but yes, we do have a choice.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 16, 2014 at 2:53 pm#371300

Participant

Marty.

Are you also refuting The written word of God?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I have many more if you are interested.

wakeup.

February 16, 2014 at 5:07 pm#371305

mikeboll64

Blocked

Good stuff, Marty. You are showing a lot more patience on this subject than I could muster.

No, God did not “create evil”, like Wakeup believes. That is simply a flawed translation in the KJV.

And no, God does not control our minds, like Gene believes.

We were created with the free will to make choices all throughout our lives. God created His spirit sons the same way.

February 16, 2014 at 5:28 pm#371308

terraricca

Participant

I agree with Mike you did give a good and true to scriptures respond to Gene and wakeup ,well done ,:)

February 16, 2014 at 5:45 pm#371311

Participant

Marty………If we Chose by are so-called “fREEWILLS” Which is the issue here, Then tell us why do we need the HOLY SPIRIT to ABIDE IN US in the first Place. Why doe GOd have to KEEP us, Like it says The LORD bless us and “KEEP” US> why did Jesus tell Peter it was God who revealed who Jesus was unto Him , why not Jesus himself?. Why did He say that upon this “ROCK” (which is the power of God to get into the mind of a person and reveal to him the truth that convinces him) was the power that he would build the church on.

Preaching the gopsel doe nothing of it self , it simply falls on deaf ears and blind eyes, unless God has Prepared a person to accept it in their hearts, and minds, That is why Jesus plainly SAID “NO” man “CAN” come unto me except yhe Father DRAW HIM. Now look up the word DRAW and see what it say , “DRAG” .

Another scripture you have not answered is this one , For He (GOD) works “IN” us to WILL and do of “HIS” Good Pleasure. tell us do you see FREEWILL Choices there?, Or is it God “CAUSING” HIS WILL to be DONE?

The scriptures in Romans clearly explains all of this and it is God who calls and God who elects, and God who is the beginner and finisher of our salvation , NO Humans from their own self so called, Will that is “FREE” from God, will ever get the credit for a persons salvation. IMO

Scripture said God looked for ONE Righteous PERSON and Found NONE “NO NOT EVEN ONE” that even understood, therefore he took it upon his own had to bring our salvation. All our Choices are based on “INFLUENCES” and therefore are NOT “FREE” Choices,What ever influences you the most is what you will always chose, if it is of the world you will chose it, if it is the Spirit of God you will chose it, its just that simple. Your mixing up Liberty to EXERCISE our “captivated” Wills with the Wills themselves being FREE. That is absolutely not true. If it is true then produce one scripture where is say our “WILLS” “THEMSELVES” are FREE then, and i will agree with you> Why Does it say Jesus can to set the “CAPTIVES” FREE, what were they held captive by, was it not there thinking in their own minds, Hence their Wills were the work of a Captivated MIND, right> God sets us FREE from that, and leads us unto another Captivity , That of God the FATHER Working IN us To Cause to WILL and do of HIS Good PLEASURE.

I am fine with that I do not base my salvation on MYSELF,or MY so called “FREE WILL Choices, But on the effectual working of the Spirit of God “IN” ME, So who get the credit for my salvation ME OR GOD the FATHER? I thank God that “HE” has “ELECTED” to Me and drew me to Jesus Christ for the Figiveness of my Sins and Has Placed me among his saints. I take no “CREDIT for that but give it all to God ALONE, who has mercy on me and guides me by his Own SPIRIT in order for me to make the right Choices, I put No confidence in my own will working in my flesh at all. Just as Paul said I find NO Good thing in my Flesh, Why?, Because to “WILL” is Present.

Lets read it together…..Rom 7:18…> For I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwells no good thing : Why? because to “WILL” is Present with me; but how to perform that which is good i find not. So much for our so-called free wills right? but let continue.
Rom 7:19…. For the good that “I” would do “I” do not: but the evil which “I” would not, that “I” do. (20) Now if “I” do that “I” would not. it is no more “I” that do it, but sin that dwells “IN” Me. (21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is [resent with me. (22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind. and bringing me into “CAPTIVITY”, to the law of sin which is in my members (24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of this death? (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our lord, So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Now Marty , if God left us to our own will of the Flesh we would all never make it , so can you see it is Not of him the WILLS but of God that WILLS to save us through Jesus, by the effectual working of His own Spirit residing “IN” our Minds to cause us to desire His way and obey his laws. We are being “CREATED unto Righteousness by that same Spirit apart from our own human Wills, a Will of the flesh.

WE did not Chose God Marty he chose us. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………gene

February 16, 2014 at 6:15 pm#371314

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 16 2014,10:45)

If we Chose by are so-called “fREEWILLS” Which is the issue here, Then tell us why do we need the HOLY SPIRIT to ABIDE IN US in the first Place.

The Holy Spirit helps us with those free-will choices, Gene. It doesn't make those choices for us.

Remember that Saul was anointed with the Holy Spirit, and still made some bad choices of his own free will anyway.

February 16, 2014 at 6:21 pm#371315

Participant

GeneB.

You are contradicting yourself.

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Rom 7:19…. For the good that “I” would do “I” do not: but the evil which “I” would not, that “I” do. (20) Now if “I” do that “I” would not. it is no more “I” that do it, but sin that dwells “IN” Me. (21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is [resent with me. (22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind. and bringing me into “CAPTIVITY”, to the law of sin which is in my members (24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of this death? (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our lord, So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

You said; For the good that I will do I do not.
But the evil that I would not, that I do.
Is that not your own choice?

Many are called but a few chosen.
Many are drawn by God; but a few chosen.
Why is that?
It is because of man's free will.
The many have *chosen* not to continue in the truth.
Many have fallen away because of own choice.

Love for God must come from the heart; not forced.
Forced love has no value in Gods eyes.
Even human to human. Love must be of free will.

Please consider. Adam and Eve had made their own choice.
They were tempted,yes; but still they could have refused the temptation.

wakeup.

February 16, 2014 at 7:25 pm#371321

terraricca

Participant

Quote

You said; For the good that I will do I do not.
But the evil that I would not, that I do.
Is that not your own choice?

so you see an evil doer in Paul not a true preacher is that what the truth in scriptures tells us all

February 16, 2014 at 9:22 pm#371324

Participant

Hi Gene:

You say:

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We need the Holy Spirit because without His Spirit we are not His Children.. Without the Holy Spirit, we don't know the meaning of the word “love”. We need the Holy Spirit, because it is by His Spirit will guide us into all truths of His Word. We need the Holy Spirit to correct us when we are wrong. We need the Holy Spirit in order to understand the Word of God, and we need the Holy Spirit in order to preach the gospel to the whole world, and let the world what a wonderful Father and God we have. We need the Holy Spirit to pray to our Father asking Him to provide all of our needs, Wisdom, guidance, conviction of sin, and all of our needs both physical and spiritual, it is through the Holy Spirit that God reveals to us all of the wonderful promises that He has in store for those who love Him, and the Holy Spirit will keep us if we want to be kept, but no, the Holy Spirit does not take your freedom to choose.

Here are some scriptures, and I am sure there are others.

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1Cr 2:2

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1Cr 2:3

And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

1Cr 2:4

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1Cr 2:5

That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1Cr 2:6

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1Cr 2:7

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Cr 2:8

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1Cr 2:9

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1Cr 2:10

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Cr 2:11

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1Cr 2:12

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1Cr 2:13

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Cr 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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Jhn 15:9
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Jhn 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Jhn 15:11
These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Jhn 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Jhn 15:13

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [/size

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Jhn 15:26

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

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Jhn 16:7

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jhn 16:8

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Jhn 16:9

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Jhn 16:10

Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Jhn 16:11

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Jhn 16:12

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Jhn 16:13

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

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Rom 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:3

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: This is what Paul is speaking of when he relates his struggle to do good. He knew the Law, but how to keep it without breaking one or more of the commandments, if inadvertanly, but in Christ Jesus, he is our example, and the Holy Spirit is our helper, but no, the Holy Spirit will not obey the Word of God for us or force us to obey, that is our choice/

Rom 8:4

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom 8:7

Because the carnal mind is en
mity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:12

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Rom 8:13

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Rom 8:14

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:15

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Rom 8:17

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. [/size

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Hbr 5:5

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Hbr 5:6

As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hbr 5:7

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Hbr 5:8

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Hbr 5:9

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

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Jam 2:12

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Jam 2:13

For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Jam 2:14

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jam 2:15

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

Jam 2:16

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Jam 2:17

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jam 2:18

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jam 2:19

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

You say:

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Now Marty , if God left us to our own will of the Flesh we would all never make it , so can you see it is Not of him the WILLS but of God that WILLS to save us through Jesus, by the effectual working of His own Spirit residing “IN” our Minds to cause us to desire His way and obey his laws. We are being “CREATED unto
Righteousness by that same Spirit apart from our own human Wills, a Will of the flesh.

Gene, we have been over this, and no one is arguing that our salvation is not a “free gift from
God”, and without his provision for our sins through the Lord Jesus, without His Word, we could not be saved, and that is what the Apostle Paul was speaking about in Romans 7 just before Romans 8. He said that “by the works of the Law, shall no man be saved”. Does that mean that they under the Law of Moses were not to keep the Law? No, it does not, but they could not keep it without making mistakes, and we with the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ, still make mistakes, and without the shed blood of Jesus, no, none of us would make it, but we have a choice as whether or not we will accept the “free gift of salvation from our God”, and we have a choice as to whether or not we will obey the Lord's commandments. If we continue to practice sin, after we have received the Holy Ghost, we have trampled under the blood of Jesus through whom we are sanctified. When I awoke this morning, I chose to pray to God for guidance in every thing that I did this day, and for Wisdom, and for His provision, and I thanked Him for being my Father and for all of His wonderful promises and for My Lord, and I chose to go to church, and I chose to pay my tithe etc., a bunch of choices. Choices to do good or evil, choices what to eat and drink, and on, and on, and on. Did control my mind or did He give me the freedom to do all of these things”?

The Apostle Paul after his discussion of his struggle under the Law to do right even knowing the Law, “there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk after the flesh but after the Spirit”'.

Your choice to walk after the flesh or after the Spirit.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 17, 2014 at 9:48 pm#371360

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 16 2014,23:03)

Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 16 2014,13:13)

This is the reason why:
God created good and evil,so men can make *a choice*.
This is the reason why God put the tree of good and evil in the garden;so Adam and Eve can make a *choice*.

God calls us to come,and some will come,and some
will not come. Jesus knocks on the door;some will open and some will not open.

But dont get confused;God knows ahead who will come,
and who will refuse to come.
Some refused to come because they are happy with all the material things they posses. They feel of no need for God.

The true followers will be fed;and will grow,and bear fruits.

wakeup.

no, God did not create evil. To disobey His Commands is the cause of all evil, but yes, we do have a choice.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty.

After all your good preachings.
Can you still refute these true written Words?
I know many have done; without any hesitations.
Their conscience seard with a hot iron.
Cherry pick the scriptures according to own taste.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Psalms 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

1 Samuel 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

All those scriptures above are in harmony with:
I make peace and create evil.
I THE LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS.

Wakeup.

February 17, 2014 at 10:05 pm#371361