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Quote (t8 @ Feb. 11 2014,06:48) Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 10 2014,08:52) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 10 2014,05:48) Marty……….No Marty “BEFORE” you have been Saved the HOLY SPIRIT leads you to Christ, Not after brother. That is what Jesus meant by “NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME”, what DRAWS US to Jesus, is From God not from ourselves, God turns us to Jesus in our minds by a revealing process, and this starts our salvation process, it has nothing to do with us Choosing God or Christ Jesus from our “OWN”, so-called “FREEWILL” Choices, or there simply would not be any Need for God to Draw us, if we could on our own Chose Him. The Carnal mind we are all born with is contrary to the Spirit of God it is not “SUBJECT” to it neither indeed can be. None of us chose God he chose us and called us by the power of his spirit, Marty remember when Jesus said to Peter , who do you say I am , Peter responded , You are the Christ the son of the living God, Jesus responded < blessed are you Simon Bar-jona, because flesh and blood did not tell you that (that included Jesus also) But my Father who is in heaven has "REVEALED" it unto You, and i say unto you You are Peter (another words Jesus knew who Peter was also by that same revelation from God), then he went on to say "UPON THIS ROCK I SHALL BUILD THE CHURCH", and the power of the grave shall not prevail. Marty that "ROCK" , was the power of God to get into our minds and reveal the truth to us, and if God reveals it to us it becomes a "reality" to us brother. Jesus plainly told the apostles they did not chose him , he chose them.
It is from God himself and has nothing to do with our “OWN” so-called “FREE” Will choices, We are drawn to Jesus and God the Father by the effectual working of his Spirit. In fact there exists no such thing as a WILL, that is FREE, or it would not be a WILL in the FIRST Place, God gives us “LIBERTY” to express and exercise our “INFLUENCED” WILLS, but an influenced Will, is far from being “FREE”. Marty you know these thing already, let the Spirit have it's perfect work.brother. IMO
peace and love to you and your……………………..gene
AAAAAmmmen to that Gene.
We dont chose God,God chooses us.
He also chose the twelve apostles, and one is a devil.
All for a good purpose.wakeup.
Okay you guys. If God chooses one of you to be a devil tomorrow for his good purposes, then I guess you have to say aaaaaaaammmen and God is good, and accept his decision, and be happy that your butt will fry in Hell, right?
T8…….Where does “any” scripture say God chooses anyone to be a Devil, But he has blinded peoples eyes, and that includes some here. Need scriptures i can produce them for you, but will that convince you I doubt it T8. If you truly believed all thing are possible with God, and if He is Love, why would you even think He is going to “destroy” anyone in Hell, in the first place. T8 if you want to argue your points, please us scriptures instead of Carnal reasons, that makes no sense at all. IMOpeace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 11 2014,10:08) T8. Only if he or she fits into His plan.
Not every person.
God has a plan from day one,incase you are not aware of that.Just to name a few:
1.Pharaoh
2.king of assyria
3.king of babylon
4.darius
5.cyrus.
6.king herod.
7.judas.
8.the son of perdition.Lamentations 2:17 The LORD hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, ***he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries***.
wakeup.
So then it would be fair to say that if you fit into God's plan, and if God sovereignly chooses you to be a devil tomorrow for his good purposes, then I guess you have to say aaaaaaaammmen and God is good, and accept his decision, and be happy that your butt will fry in Hell, right?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 11 2014,13:06) T8…….Where does “any” scripture say God chooses anyone to be a Devil, But he has blinded peoples eyes, and that includes some here. Need scriptures i can produce them for you, but will that convince you I doubt it T8. If you truly believed all thing are possible with God, and if He is Love, why would you even think He is going to “destroy” anyone in Hell, in the first place. T8 if you want to argue your points, please us scriptures instead of Carnal reasons, that makes no sense at all. IMO
Jesus said, “one of you is a devil” when he spoke about Judas. So let me reword the question.If you fit into God's plan, and if God sovereignly chooses you to betray Jesus or to commit a sin that leads to death, then I guess you have to say aaaaaaaammmen and God is still good, and accept his decision, and accept the damnation that follows, and further, not only agree, but argue for this methodology as much as you are doing now while the going seems good.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 11 2014,13:06) T8 if you want to argue your points, please us scriptures instead of Carnal reasons, that makes no sense at all. IMO
Yes you are right. In light of my questioning, your doctrine on this makes no sense at all. And you are right about asking for scripture and there are many.I will start with the one in Revelation that talks about repentance unless your name be blotted out of the Book of Life. If it is all predetermined then why is a name in the book with the possibility of being removed?
Psalm 69:28
Erase their names from the Book of Life; don't let them be counted among the righteous.Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.Ask yourself, if you are not victorious, then is it possible to have your name removed from the Book of Life. And if so, why is it there to begin with if you were predetermined to suffer God's wrath?
If there were two groups of people, one who were predestined for glory and the other who were predestined for the Lake of Fire and to suffer the wrath of God, and I happened to be in the group destined for glory, surely I would look upon the other group in great pity and sorrow. To know that they were just like me, but when God flipped the coin, they go tails instead of heads.
Am I more righteous than God for thinking the obvious or is that this whole predestination thing is a crock. I think the latter. We are always being encouraged to choose God, (those very words) while you are saying we have no choice thereby denying many scriptures.
Why bother doing anything if you are just a puppet in a movie with a script already written. Why bother to convince me of anything if this is true. I will only accept if the script says so according to you.
Trying to convince me that predestination is true is an oxymoron. The act of trying to convince me it is true proves that you yourself do not truly believe it. Because there is nothing you can do or I can do if the script is written and I happen to be written in as a villain or non-believer of predestination.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 11 2014,20:03) Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 11 2014,10:08) T8. Only if he or she fits into His plan.
Not every person.
God has a plan from day one,incase you are not aware of that.Just to name a few:
1.Pharaoh
2.king of assyria
3.king of babylon
4.darius
5.cyrus.
6.king herod.
7.judas.
8.the son of perdition.Lamentations 2:17 The LORD hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, ***he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries***.
wakeup.
So then it would be fair to say that if you fit into God's plan, and if God sovereignly chooses you to be a devil tomorrow for his good purposes, then I guess you have to say aaaaaaaammmen and God is good, and accept his decision, and be happy that your butt will fry in Hell, right?
T8.God always chooses the bad and the good to do His plan.
If I am bad at heart and I fit into His plan,
yes. God will use me. And if you are good in his eyes,
God will use you to do his plan. God does the choosing.
He chose his apostles and the prophets.wakeup.
Wakeup………Have you noticed T8 never address the scriptures we have posted in backing up what we have said. He goes and desperately finds a scripture where King David Said something “he” wanted to happen, and presents it as if God said it. He completely ignores other Scriptures Like where it say , for whom the LORD foreknew, he also “PREDESIGNATED” to be conformed unto image of his dear Son. It is obvious he does not believe in Predestination.
So to Him Jesus Just happened by a Will of “Self” to be the Christ, and all the things Prophesied about him was Just a “Chance” it would happen, Not to even mention King Cyrus , Jeremiah and all the other prophets or John the Baptist, and on an on it goes, these were all “ONLY” a “HAPPENSTANCE” of their OWN “SELF” WILLS, they just happened to Chose on there own, what they all did. Yea Right!.
Jesus plainly told the disciples that they did not chose him but he chose them, T8 it appears is a man who believes, He brings about his own salvation by his so-called “FREEWILL” Choices, and God had no part of it. So let all say “YEA” for T8, the MASTER of his own destiny.
He blurts out some carnal reasoning but will not answer the scriptures we post. He absolutely does not believe this scripture for God “WORKS” “IN US” Both to “WILL” and Do of “HIS” Good Pleasure. That alone, should convince him, his “ASSUMPTIONS” are wrong.
T8 does not believe in the Absolute “SOVEREIGNTY” of GOD in all things. He believes God just throws people out into the world like throwing the dice in a crap table, and expects us all to Make our own destiny by our own , so-called “FREEWILLS”, a WILL that works apart from GOD, he does not need God's intervention. He is what i call an “I” GOD, self made ETERNAL BEINGS, He writes his self in the book of life, and keeps himself there by his own WILL> IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 11 2014,20:22) If there were two groups of people, one who were predestined for glory and the other who were predestined for the Lake of Fire and to suffer the wrath of God, and I happened to be in the group destined for glory, surely I would look upon the other group in great pity and sorrow. To know that they were just like me, but when God flipped the coin, they go tails instead of heads. Am I more righteous than God for thinking the obvious or is that this whole predestination thing is a crock. I think the latter. We are always being encouraged to choose God, (those very words) while you are saying we have no choice thereby denying many scriptures.
Why bother doing anything if you are just a puppet in a movie with a script already written. Why bother to convince me of anything if this is true. I will only accept if the script says so according to you.
Trying to convince me that predestination is true is an oxymoron. The act of trying to convince me it is true proves that you yourself do not truly believe it. Because there is nothing you can do or I can do if the script is written and I happen to be written in as a villain or non-believer of predestination.
T8…….Lets not lie about what I have Said OK, Where did i say “we have no Choices” What is said is we are not saved by our own so-called Wills that are FREE from God. So let try to be honest about what i have said and no read your own interpretations in to it OK. So let take scriptures then and you tell us what they mean OK?Jesus said (not gene), “NO MAN”, “CAN” come unto me except the Father which has sent me Draw Him: an i will raise him up in the Last day.
But you tell us Free WILLERS can do that, on their own right?
Let just start with this one, We have many, many, many, we can post but for now T8, what is your take on what Jesus meant by those words? Please answer if you can without going into carnal reasoning's. Just a straight forward honest answer will do, OK?peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 11 2014,14:59) Where did i say “we have no Choices”………..
Hi Gene,Doesn't the fact that we DO have “choices” to make mean that we also have the “free will” to make whatever choice we want to make?
Ezekiel 18
26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die.27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life.
28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die.
Gene, not only does this passage explain how all of us have the free will to CHOOSE righteousness or wickedness, but it also shows that WE OURSELVES play a big part in our own salvation.
I agree that God alone is the one who offers that salvation as a gift……. but WE are the ones who either do what it takes to receive that gift, or don't.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2014,08:41) Ezekiel 18
26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die.27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life.
28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die.
Gene, not only does this passage explain how all of us have the free will to CHOOSE righteousness or wickedness, but it also shows that WE OURSELVES play a big part in our own salvation.
I agree that God alone is the one who offers that salvation as a gift……. but WE are the ones who either do what it takes to receive that gift, or don't.
Mike B.If one believe's that Jesus Christ is the Son of God,
the Messiah. He shall be saved.But now everyone can believe;but dont follow His commandments. He is a liar.
A God hearing Man can fall away and do evil.
He shall die.An evil man can repent and and turn from his evil ways;
He shall live.God knew beforehand the end of us all.
God chose Moses when he was in his mothers womb;not Moses God.Every human born on this earth is in the book.
All his deeds are written down,for judgement day.Predestenation:
God knows everyman his end.
A righteous man can end up evil.(God knew it in advance).
An evil man can end up righteous.(God knew it in advance).
Every man/woman is like an open book before God.God also knows which baby born in the last days will be the son of perdition.
Romans 8:29 **** For whom he did foreknow****,
he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
It is not easy to picture it in our minds what it is like to know
all things far into the future, even to the end.wakeup.
No, Gene, you say that I am a false teacher, but I normally just let the scriptures determine who is teaching false doctrine. While it is true that I did not come looking for God, but He came looking for me. It is I that had to accept His offer of forgiveness and to be reconciled to Him. God will not force anyone to come to Him. It is a person's choice.And I have give you various scriptures that show that it is a choice. You even admit yourself that you think than all will come to repentance at some point in time. What does that mean, if not that that they will do so by their free will. God may send tribulation to help influence a man's decision, but it is still his decision.
Here is another scripture for you to consider:
Quote
Rev 3:20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
You see, that the man had to hear his voice, and open the door, and then Jesus would come in to him.
It sure sounds like that man had a choice to me?Joshua sure thought it was a choice. Only you and wakeup seem to teach something different.
Quote
Jos 24:15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
So, Joshua had it all wrong, and you have it right?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Wakeup @ Feb. 11 2014,09:13) Marty. Many are called but a few chosen.
All truly in Christ shall be saved.wakeup.
Hi Wakeup:Explain to me what this is speaking of. On what basis were they chosen? Everyone to whom the gospel is preached is called, but not all have believed the gospel, and some that did believe, did not endure unto the end.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty.
We all have our own choice to make;but God already knew what choice one will make.
The gospel is preached into all nations.
God already knew who will refuse or accept.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 12 2014,07:14) Marty. We all have our own choice to make;but God already knew what choice one will make.
The gospel is preached into all nations.
God already knew who will refuse or accept.wakeup.
how is that
so we are all predestine and preprogrammed to be what ever we are machines ,no choice left in usQuote (terraricca @ Feb. 12 2014,13:43) Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 12 2014,07:14) Marty. We all have our own choice to make;but God already knew what choice one will make.
The gospel is preached into all nations.
God already knew who will refuse or accept.wakeup.
how is that so we are all predestine and preprogrammed to be what ever we are machines ,no choice left in us
T.I dont expect you to understand.
The gospel is preached,some will connect;some dont have any connection at all;
Some will follow then fall away in time.
Some are not interested,but later in life they will
start seeking.Despite all that;God already can see who will truly follow him to the end.
It is still our own choice.wakeup.
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 12 2014,12:09) Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 11 2014,09:13) Marty. Many are called but a few chosen.
All truly in Christ shall be saved.wakeup.
Hi Wakeup:Explain to me what this is speaking of. On what basis were they chosen? Everyone to whom the gospel is preached is called, but not all have believed the gospel, and some that did believe, did not endure unto the end.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty.The seed has been sown in all the earth.
Some of the seed fell on deaf ears.(on the foot path).
The birds picked on them.No chance,because of no interest.Some fell on rock, it picked up some moist;it grew.
But then there is no miost left;it dried up, and died.Some fell amongst thorn bushes; it grew;but the thorn bush choked it, and the plant died.
The thorn bushes are the cares of the world.
Many are called;but babylon's temptations are too great,
for them.They got swallowd up.The few are the true believers; babylon is not strong enough to tempt them. They are the strong in faith.
The true lovers of God.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 12 2014,12:14) Marty. We all have our own choice to make;but God already knew what choice one will make.
The gospel is preached into all nations.
God already knew who will refuse or accept.wakeup.
Hi Wakeup:With that I will agree.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Wakeup @ Feb. 12 2014,15:10) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 12 2014,12:09) Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 11 2014,09:13) Marty. Many are called but a few chosen.
All truly in Christ shall be saved.wakeup.
Hi Wakeup:Explain to me what this is speaking of. On what basis were they chosen? Everyone to whom the gospel is preached is called, but not all have believed the gospel, and some that did believe, did not endure unto the end.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty.The seed has been sown in all the earth.
Some of the seed fell on deaf ears.(on the foot path).
The birds picked on them.No chance,because of no interest.Some fell on rock, it picked up some moist;it grew.
But then there is no miost left;it dried up, and died.Some fell amongst thorn bushes; it grew;but the thorn bush choked it, and the plant died.
The thorn bushes are the cares of the world.
Many are called;but babylon's temptations are too great,
for them.They got swallowd up.The few are the true believers; babylon is not strong enough to tempt them. They are the strong in faith.
The true lovers of God.wakeup.
Yes, the sower soweth the seed, the seed is the Word of God, the soil is the person's heart.Quote 3 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? 14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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