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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 15 2014,19:42) To All……….Please consider ………> If Jesus was a “ordinary” human who came into being, at the time of his conception on this earth, and came into “BEING” Just as we do. A Child who was predestined, a Child , who God was with from his conception, a child who grew in stature and mental development just as we do, who had the same kind of body and mind we have a “PURE” Human Being Nothing more and nothing less. And at the age of 30 God Anointed him with his Spirit, and sent him out into the World to preach the Kingdom of God, a man just as Moses was a Man, and a servant of God , So this man Jesus was also, a Servant of God, and Just as Moses was also anointed with the spirit of God, so was Jesus and the Spirit lead Him and communed with Him the Will and Words of God, Just as he did with the Prophets of old. Now with the help of God this man over came the world and committed no sin, a “PERFECT HUMAN BEING” The ONLY HUMAN who never sinned, from the creation of mankind. This “MAN” could have “NEVER” tasted death ever, because he never sinned, But it was shown this “MAN” Jesus, that he could be a Sacrificial Lamb of GOD, to remove The eternal death that was on all of Mankind. He could redeem his fellow mankind, by fulfilling the requirement of the Law of God, as a “KINSMEN REDEEMER” but price tag would cost him his life for a time the ONLY LIFE HE EVER KNEW. But it would redeem mankind from it's stated of Perishing < For the soul the Sins, it shall Parish, not jut die but Parish.
This Man Jesus was God's Example to us all of How to overcome the world by having a Personnel relationship with God the Father, Just as he did. He was a Perfect “EXAMPLE” that it can be accomplished by us, Just as it was accomplished by Him, we can come to the measure and full stature of Christ BY becoming “EXACTLY” like him in “EVERY” way. He was a MAN who reached Perfection by the help and “GRACE” of God.
The First HUMAN BEING” to reach the Goal GOD had in Mind for us all, the Firstborn from all creation to enter into the Kingdom of God He is the “EXAMPLE” FOR US “ALL” He give us who are 'HUMAN” Beings “Just as He is” great hope in knowing we can obtain to that EXACT SAME PERFECTION AS HE IS With God the FATHER.
Now what would be the first thing a enemy like SATAN would do to destroy that hope , what would be his first move, He would try to break Our “CONNECTION” OUR “EXACT” IDENTITY With Jesus. So how could he achieve this goal, how could he move Jesus away form humanity?, by Changing Jesus IDENTITY from a HUMAN BEING to a PREEXISTING GOD, or some other Kind of PREEXISTING Being, any thing that would work to CHANGE Jesus' “EXACT” Tie to the rest of HUMANITY, By Making HIM appear Different then we are.
So he worked early on in the minds of people the concept of Jesus being different, then the rest of HUMANITY, why because it would work to drive a “WEDGE” between Mankind and Jesus, and would work to “SEPARATE” his IDENTITY and “TIE” with us all. Satan very cleverly orchestrated it all from the very beginning. It started with the Gnostic's who John and Paul fought tirelessly to prevent this false teaching to take root in the churches, That is why John wrote whosoever confesses not that Christ Jesus came in the flesh is an Antichrist He repeated it in three of his letters , tho one has bee taken out, but originally was there. Paul wrote all of 2 Ths 2 , for the purpose to show how this iniquity was developing in the church and how he and other were suppressing it , but it could come to exist after they were taken out of the way, and in it time (325 AD) the Council of Necia the false Doctrine of the “TRINITY” which included PREEXISTENCE became established firmly in Christendom Both these false teaching work to “SEPARATE” and drive a wedge between Jesus and His fellow “HUMAN” Brother and sisters.
This was all very cleverly brought into existence and has thrown all Christendom into confusion, and while they confess Christ , they do not “TRULY” believe, they can be like him in every way, because this false teaching of the synagogue of Satan has blinded them all. But God has allowed them that LOVE the Truth to SEE THROW the LIE. But to the rest he has sent a deluding Spirit in order that they believe the “LIE”, So if God has deluded a person no amount of persuading can change them. IMO
peace and love to you all………………………………………….gene
Genenice story for those who do not care to study the scriptures
but as soon you have to answer questions it seems your story falls down like a rock,and please try not to call me a trinitarian, preexist of Christ yes
just imagine that all those religion guy's come up with their own story ,that would end up in many different stories ,this is why we have to stick to the scriptures in all we say
you say that Jesus was an ordinary man if so why is it that it took THE POWERS OF GOD AND THE HOLY SPIRIT TO BRING HIM FORTH ,AND WHY WAS HE CALL THE SON OF GOD ,AND HOLY ,?
AND ALL THIS BEFORE HE WAS EVEN CONCEIVE AND BORN ,HE DID NOT EVEN HAD A HUMAN FATHER ;
AND YOU CALL THAT A COMMON MAN
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU FRIEND DO WE HAD ALL THOSE GOODIES
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 14 2014,19:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,12:35)
You say that all things WERE created through Jesus, right? Good. At least your not using that lame “on account of” thing anymore. See? We're making progress.Now, can I sensibly claim that you were created THROUGH your parents? Of course, since you were indeed created through your parents. And why would that be sensible? Because your parents EXISTED before you did, and were therefore able to have you created through them.
But……… can I sensibly claim that you were created THROUGH your great, great grandchild? Of course not. Why? Because how could God create you THROUGH someone who wasn't even around to have you created through him?
So the second claim would be nonsensical, and people would laugh at anyone who claimed such a thing, right?
So tell me, how could God have created the heavens and the earth THROUGH Jesus if Jesus wasn't even around to have those things created through him?
Are you getting this? My understanding is the SENSIBLE one. So even if we left out all the other scriptures that speak of Jesus' pre-existence, just knowing that all things were created THROUGH him tells us that he must have BEEN THERE for all things to be created through him.
Hi Mike:Do you suppose that when my dad was sowing his seed in the womb of my mother, he knew that he would have a boy at a precise moment in time?
Love in Christ,
Marty
No, I don't suppose so, Marty.Do YOU suppose that you were created through your great, great grandson? YES or NO?
And if “NO”, why not?
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 14 2014,19:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,12:39) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 14 2014,19:37) Please show me by the scriptures that “he was in the form of God prior to his birth into this world”.
Phil 2:6-8, Marty.
No, Mike, it does not say that. It says that was “in the form of God” that much is true, but the rest is your interpretation of what is being stated.
Phil 2:6-8 lists certain events in a chronological order, Marty.1. He was existing in the form of God.
2. He emptied himself.
3. He was made in the likeness of a human being.
4. After becoming a human being, he obeyed God to the point of death on a tree.
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 16 2014,03:41) T. Where is your bit?
You dont know yourself.
Jesus is AGOD to you.wakeup.
wyou say he is a god to me i will always refer to him as a mighty one after his father
to be true the most mighty one after his father ,
considering he his the only begotten son of GOD ALMIGHTY THE CREATOR JEHOVAH,
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 14 2014,21:49) I suppose if Mike heard Jesus say,
Before Abraham I AM.
He would have gone all red in the face , and start calling him names. Because it does not make sense to him.wakeup.
I am going to try to explain a few things to Marty, Wakeup, and Gene. I don't expect them to understand these things – mostly because they don't WANT TO understand them.But I'm also taking time out of my life to show this information because I think Pierre, t8, and perhaps some other readers might enjoy knowing the truth about John 8:58. The three musketeers originally mentioned are free to check the information with Kerwin or journey or tigger – to keep me honest.
First up, let me address Gene's claim that Jesus was saying he was before Abraham in “stature”, or “importance”, or whatever.
The KJV says, “……before Abraham WAS…….”. The word they translate as “WAS” is the Greek word “ginomai”, which means:
ginomai Strong #1096
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
2a) of events3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
3a) of men appearing in public4) to be made, finished
4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought5) to become, be made
So when the KJV translates it as, “before Abraham WAS“, they mean, “before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE“.
Here are the translations of some other Bibles, which use different WORDS, but carry the same exact MEANING as the KJV:
NET ©
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came into existence………NIV ©
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born………NASB ©
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born…….BBE ©
Before Abraham came into being………..NLT ©
Jesus answered, “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!”Take note of the last one – the New Living Translation. They are one of the very few Trinitarian translations that render the true MEANING of “I existed” – instead of “I am”.
But more on that later…………
Gene, do you understand that the words simply cannot mean, “I am before Abraham in importance” ? You would have to totally omit that Greek word “ginomai” from the text to force a meaning like that. But the word “ginomai” IS in the text, and makes the statement mean one of the following:
Before Abraham “came into existence”……….
Before Abraham “was begotten”……….
Before Abraham “was born”………..
Before Abraham “came into being”……….
Before Abraham “was made”……..
Before Abraham “was created”……..
Before Abraham “existed”………. etc.
Okay, now that we've eliminated the slightest possibility that Jesus was talking about being before Abraham in “importance”, it's time to move on to the meat of the matter.
Mike……it could mean that , but it also could mean Jesus was mentioned in the scriptures before Abraham and therefore was more important, in the plan and purpose then Abraham. The Jew were alway barging that they were the children of Abraham and that was their way of identifying themselves as GOD'S people, even Jesus used it when he said, “for he, a person he was speaking about was son of Abraham also. So that was a very prevailing description used in that time.
Mike what did GOD Do, hide Jesus for thousands of years, before he '”MORPHED ” him into a HUMAN. Now think about this for a moment, man was existing in a fallen state right. God's crown Jewel of his creative WORKS was manKind, not angels or anyone Else. He had a plan for the PERFECTION of the HUMAN race from the foundation of earth? HE wants to place “ALL” AuthorIty, under the FOOT Mankind, as the book of Hebrews says, in that he has put “ALL” things under the FOOT OF MAN, there is “NOTHING” that is not under HIS (Mankind's) FEET. ,now notice Carefully MIKE, it also says, But we do not “YET” see “ALL” things under his (mankind's) feet, but what do we SEE, we see Jesus CHRIST (another MAN ) now Crowned with Glory and Honor, and ALL things under HIS FEET.
How could “ALL” thing be under His FEET? , because he is the FIRST TO receive those blessings from the human race, the first but certainly not the last to, why because we are to be “JOINT heirs of also. have you noticed how it all ties us with Jesus, why ?, because Jesus is one of us humans Satan hate all mankind because of God's purposes being worked in MANKIND. so he try's desperately to break that knowledge and keep it from MANKIND, and the way he does that is to distort the truth, by making Jesus Different then we are, to hide our potential and from believing we also can achieve that EXACT SAME STATUS and relationship JESUS HAS.. He uses people like the Trinitarians, and Preexistences to cloud that understanding.
Guess what Mike you are working well for those purposes he wants, even though you are unaware of it. you will just have more to repent of latter, unless the light comes on brother. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
John 8:58 NWT
Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”NLT ©
Jesus answered, “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!”It is true that the actual Greek words say, “I am” – in the present tense. But it is also true that translating Greek into English requires us to work around certain things – since the Greek language is much different than the English language.
John 14:9 is one example of this:
KJV ©
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?NET ©
“Have I been with you for so long, and you have not known me, Philip?NIV ©
……I have been among you such a long time………NASB ©
“Have I been so long with you…………NLT ©
……even after all the time I have been with you……..MSG ©
“You've been with me all this time……..BBE ©
…….have I been with you all this time………NRSV ©
“Have I been with you all this time………NKJV ©
“Have I been with you so long………I could make a list a mile long, and the vast majority of English Bibles will have “Have I been” or “I have been” in that verse, instead of the literal Greek “I am”. That's right, the actual Greek texts have the present tense, “I am with you for so long…….” – just like in John 8:58.
Yet hardly any English Bibles translate John 14:9 into English with the phrase “I am”. Why? Because they know a few things. First, they know from the context what was MEANT – and translate accordingly.
Second, they know this NETNotes information:
The Greek present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense. Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed “historical presents”………..
And now we all know this, right?
And third, they understand the idiomatic uses of “I am” in the Greek language that expert and professor Jason BeDuhn is about to explain to us:
“The majority of translations recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear. Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate.
All the translations except the LB and NWT also ignore the true relation between the verbs of the sentence and produce a sentence that makes no sense in English.
These changes in the meaning of the Greek and in the normal procedure for translation point to a bias that has interfered with the work of the translators.
No one listening to Jesus, and no one reading John in his own time would have picked up on a divine self-identification in the mere expression ‘I am’, which, if you think about it, is just about the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language.”
So why is it that virtually EVERY English translator correctly renders the “I am” in John 14:9 as “I have been” – but “forgets how to translate” when it comes to John 8:58?
The last paragraph in Dr. BeDuhn's quote tells us exactly why they all “forget how to translate” when it comes to 8:58.
These translations are, for the most part, made by TRINITARIAN translators – who want nothing more than to twist the scriptures and FORCE them into teaching us that Jesus actually IS God Almighty. And they think that by leaving 8:58 as “I am” – even though that translation makes NO SENSE in English – they can claim that Jesus was identifying himself as Jehovah God.
But their point still misses the mark anyway, because it is not known for sure that “YHWH” even means “I AM” – and because Jesus would have had to say, “Before Abraham existed, I was I AM” – if he was claiming to have been Jehovah. Without that first “I was” in Jesus' statement, he would have only been saying, “Before Abraham existed, Jehovah!” And that statement would be as nonsensical in English as “Before Abraham existed, I am”.
So their plans fall flat, despite their biased and nonsensical translation of John 8:58.
So finally, after digesting all that technical information, we still have our own God-given common sense left, right? And what does our common sense tell us?
1. That “Before Abraham existed, I am” makes perfect sense in English?
2. Or that “Before Abraham existed, I have been“ makes better sense, and also matches the way those same Greek words are translated in John 14:9?
Of course the latter one is the ONLY honest answer to that question. Which one of us would say, “I am at the store for the last two hours” ? Not one of us. We in English would say, “I HAVE BEEN at the store for the last two hours”, right? But guess what? Greek is an entirely different language than English is. And in the Greek language, “I am at the store for the last two hours” can make perfect sense.
But when translating that statement into English, we have to “recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear”.
Virtually all English translations properly integrate the words into the context of John 14:9 – so that the statement makes sense to us in English. So why do so many of them “forget how to translate” when it comes to John 8:58?
Bias. Pure and simple bias.
Don't buy into that Trinitarian bias, people. Don't buy into their nonsensical translation of John 8:58. You are now armed with the facts of the matter. Make the sensible choice.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 15 2014,17:45) Mike……it could mean that , but it also could mean Jesus was mentioned in the scriptures before Abraham and therefore was more important, in the plan and purpose then Abraham.
So now, knowing that there is no way 8:58 could be construed as Jesus saying he was more important than Abraham, you have decided to add different words into the text, Gene?Now you are imagining that Jesus was saying, “I was mentioned in the scriptures before Abraham was”?
Read my other HUGE post on 8:58, think on the information, and get back to me on that one.
Jesus said I AM for a reason.
He is telling us something.
We need to connect that with this scripture.
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, *I AM* hath sent me unto you.wakeup.
Mike………So let go with the first part of your rendition of the Scripture, Before Abraham “come to Be” I am “I AM” What? , I am Mentioned in scriptures? I am spoken about?, , I am existing a Sentinel Bring? I am that I am as wakeup believes? an on, an on, it goes to infinity. So what can give us a clue as to what Jesus was referring to, by that statement.
I my opinion was He was referring to how the Jew accepted the Authority of Abraham in qualifying them as GOD'S People, they looked to him as their, tie with God. But Jesus was telling them that He was more important the Abraham, that they should be Looking to Him instead of Abraham. That is why he also said Abraham looked forward to MY Day and was glad. He was trying to get across to those Jews that he was more important to them then Abraham was. IMO
Mike another Problem you have i believe is you are taking Scripture translated by Trinitarians and Preexistence to conform to their religious views through a language “GREEK” that words can take on all kind of “DIFFERENT” Meanings. You as they were, force the text to say what in fact it is not really or specifically saying. Now if Jesus had said He was alive as a Sentinel Being and walking the earth Before Abraham was , then I would agree with you, and if that were Jesus point he simply would have said it that way, but he didn't, why is that?
You do this with John 1:1 also as if John saying something which he didn't write. Haven't you noticed You Trinitarians and Preexistence's have to do that with about all the scriptures you us, Nothing is CLEARLY STATED, the way you guys interpret them, Why is that MIKE?, why do you have to go through so much trouble explaining those obscure scripture to support your views, have you ever ask yourselves that?
Can't you see if it is so clear then why all the confusion over what is said them. If John or Jesus or Paul was clearly saying what you people say then they sure did a poor job of it. I could take any subject we talk about here, an say it so clearly, that there would be NO mistaking of what i was saying, and i am sure Jesus and the rest of the apostles could have done the same , the obscuring of those scriptures did not come from them, but from Trinitarians translators. You would think, you would be cautious, for that reason alone, and you would be skeptical of their translations, especially from a language (Greek) that many words can be taken in many different ways.
Bottom line is it takes God Spirit of TRUTH, in put thing in Proper perspective and that Spirit of Truth, is not working in Trinitarians and Preexistence translators. Pray about it Mike, and maybe God will grant you His Spirit, I will ask him also for you brother.
Mike the whole concept of a Preexisting Jesus is False , He is NO GOD at ALL, Nor did he ever Preexist before his berth on this earth either MIKE. He is 100% Pure Human Being No more and No Less. He has attained to the Goal, God has in mind for, US ALL, It is “JUST” that Simple MIKE> He is the Head of the household of God , the “FIRSTBORN” from Mankind to enter into the Kingdom of God, the First from mankind to be raised to eternal Life from the dead. The First to fulfill the will and purpose of God for all of mankind.
He is My lord, but far beyond that, My Brother, and the firstborn from the human creation to enter into the family of God, we both have the same Father and the same GOD. I do not “SEPARATE” Jesus from my Human Identity with Him. Nor do I Preach A DOCTRINE THAT “SEPARATES” Jesus form his brothers and sisters. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 16 2014,09:40) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 14 2014,19:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,12:35)
You say that all things WERE created through Jesus, right? Good. At least your not using that lame “on account of” thing anymore. See? We're making progress.Now, can I sensibly claim that you were created THROUGH your parents? Of course, since you were indeed created through your parents. And why would that be sensible? Because your parents EXISTED before you did, and were therefore able to have you created through them.
But……… can I sensibly claim that you were created THROUGH your great, great grandchild? Of course not. Why? Because how could God create you THROUGH someone who wasn't even around to have you created through him?
So the second claim would be nonsensical, and people would laugh at anyone who claimed such a thing, right?
So tell me, how could God have created the heavens and the earth THROUGH Jesus if Jesus wasn't even around to have those things created through him?
Are you getting this? My understanding is the SENSIBLE one. So even if we left out all the other scriptures that speak of Jesus' pre-existence, just knowing that all things were created THROUGH him tells us that he must have BEEN THERE for all things to be created through him.
Hi Mike:Do you suppose that when my dad was sowing his seed in the womb of my mother, he knew that he would have a boy at a precise moment in time?
Love in Christ,
Marty
No, I don't suppose so, Marty.Do YOU suppose that you were created through your great, great grandson? YES or NO?
And if “NO”, why not?
Hi Mike:What does that have to do with the fact that God knew that a specific time He would have a Son through whom He would reconcile the world unto Himself?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,12:38) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 14 2014,19:29) Hi Mike: You want me to tell you why the translators the way they did, and all I can say, is that I suppose that it was the context of what was being said.
And in WHAT context would it make sense to say, “Before Abraham existed, I am“ ?Would we say, “I am with you since last year” ? Or would we say, “I HAVE BEEN with you since last year” ?
Which one?
Hi Mike:The context has to do with the Jews accusing him of saying that he had seen Abraham, and he did not say that.
Quote (Jesus said:)
Jhn 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
(The Jews said)
Jhn 8:57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
(And He said)
Jhn 8:58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Wakeup @ Jan. 16 2014,02:44) Jesus said I AM for a reason.
He is telling us something.
We need to connect that with this scripture.
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, *I AM* hath sent me unto you.wakeup.
Did you even read the post, Wakeup?Remember this part?
Quote But their point still misses the mark anyway, because it is not known for sure that “YHWH” even means “I AM” – and because Jesus would have had to say, “Before Abraham existed, I was I AM” – if he was claiming to have been Jehovah. Without that first “I was” in Jesus' statement, he would have only been saying, “Before Abraham existed, Jehovah!” And that statement would be as nonsensical in English as “Before Abraham existed, I am”. 1. We don't KNOW that “YHWH” even really means “I AM”.
2. Jesus saying, “Before Abraham existed, Jehovah!” does not make any sense. Remember that Jesus DIDN'T say, “Before Abraham existed, I HAVE BEEN I AM”. Do you understand that?
3. Jesus is NOT Jehovah, and would therefore have no sensible reason to claim he WAS Jehovah.
4. The phrase “I am” is one of the most common phrases in any language, and is said dozens of times by dozens of people in the Bible. Do you suppose ALL of those people were claiming to BE Jehovah – simply because they uttered the words, “I am”?
I'm begging you to THINK, man. I'm begging you.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 16 2014,09:36) Mike………So let go with the first part of your rendition of the Scripture, Before Abraham “come to Be” I am “I AM” What?
Gene,I answered that in the post. Don't you guys read my posts?
The literal Greek words Jesus said in John 14:9 are, “Am I so long a time with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip?”
But how do virtually all English Bibles translate those words, Gene?
They render the present tense “I AM” to a past tense “I HAVE BEEN”, right? Yes, even the precious KJV does this.
They do it because they HAVE to do things like this sometimes when translating one language into another. In Greek, the statement “I am at the store for the last two hours” might make perfect sense to another Greek speaking person.
But it DOESN'T make sense to an English speaking person. Therefore, when translating that statement from Greek to English, the translator will have to take into account that certain Greek words and tenses don't translate accurately into English. Did you read the green words in my last post that told us that a past tense English phrase will many times occur in the present tense Greek form? So the translator has to integrate the original Greek statement into a statement that DOES make sense in English.
Do you understand this? You can't read one single verse in the entire Bible where this practice doesn't occur. We have to re-arrange the order of the words, integrate the words and tenses into English words and tenses, and so on.
Consider the Spanish phrase “casa blanca”. It translates into English as “white house”, but the word “casa” is the one that means “house”, and the word “blanca” is the one that means “white”. So if we translated it LITERALLY, it would mean “house white”.
You see, in Spanish, the adjective comes AFTER the noun. In English, the adjective comes BEFORE the noun. So a translator has to switch the order for it to make sense to us in English. This is called “integrating”.
Now also consider that the word “casa” and “blanca” are FEMININE words in Spanish. It doesn't mean that houses and the color white are literally FEMALE things in Mexico. The words are only GRAMMATICALLY feminine – and don't have anything to do with the sexual orientation of either thing.
Just like the Hebrew word for “spirit” is a FEMININE word. It doesn't mean the Holy Spirit of God is a female.
But the English language doesn't use feminine and masculine word forms. All of our words are neuter in form.
These are just some of the many things translators must take into account. We wouldn't translate a statement from Spanish to English that says, “I live in a female house that is she-white”, right? We would INTEGRATE that statement into English as, “I live in a white house”, right?
So listen very carefully: I KNOW that you don't WANT to believe Jesus existed in the form of God before being made into the likeness of a human being. I REALIZE this, Gene.
But the FACT of the matter is that in John 8:58, Jesus told the Pharisees that before Abraham even came into existence, he had already been in existence.
THAT is what Jesus told them. And I realize you will buck against this FACT until you're blue in the face. But it doesn't really matter. The facts are the facts, and the fact is that Jesus DID exist before Abraham existed.
The correct translation of John 8:58 is one of the following:
NWT
Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”NLT
Jesus answered, “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!“And the ONLY reason most translators change the “I AM” to “I HAVE BEEN” in John 14:9, but DON'T change it to “I HAVE BEEN” in 8:58, is because they are TRINITARIANS, who are trying to convince people that Jesus was claiming to be Jehovah in that verse.
If it wasn't for the fact that many people think “YHWH” means “I AM” – there would not be a single English Bible in existence that didn't translate 8:58 CORRECTLY as “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”
The only reason they leave it as a nonsensical English statement is because they want you to think Jesus was claiming to be “I AM”.
If you are either unwilling or unable to understand this, then there is nothing more I can do for you.
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 16 2014,17:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 16 2014,09:40)
Do YOU suppose that you were created through your great, great grandson? YES or NO?And if “NO”, why not?
Hi Mike:What does that have to do with the fact that God knew that a specific time He would have a Son through whom He would reconcile the world unto Himself?
Please answer the question honestly and directly, Marty. Thanks.Quote (942767 @ Jan. 16 2014,17:45) Hi Mike: The context has to do with the Jews accusing him of saying that he had seen Abraham, and he did not say that.
Marty,The Jews implied it was impossible for Jesus to have ever seen Abraham, since he wasn't even 50 years old yet.
And his response to them was that he had been in existence before Abraham ever came into existence.
Marty, do you have any comments at all on my two posts from yesterday? Is there any of the information I posted that you can refute? If not, I'll assume you accept every bit of both posts as the truth of the matter.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,11:32) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 16 2014,02:44) Jesus said I AM for a reason.
He is telling us something.
We need to connect that with this scripture.
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, *I AM* hath sent me unto you.wakeup.
Did you even read the post, Wakeup?Remember this part?
Quote But their point still misses the mark anyway, because it is not known for sure that “YHWH” even means “I AM” – and because Jesus would have had to say, “Before Abraham existed, I was I AM” – if he was claiming to have been Jehovah. Without that first “I was” in Jesus' statement, he would have only been saying, “Before Abraham existed, Jehovah!” And that statement would be as nonsensical in English as “Before Abraham existed, I am”. 1. We don't KNOW that “YHWH” even really means “I AM”.
2. Jesus saying, “Before Abraham existed, Jehovah!” does not make any sense. Remember that Jesus DIDN'T say, “Before Abraham existed, I HAVE BEEN I AM”. Do you understand that?
3. Jesus is NOT Jehovah, and would therefore have no sensible reason to claim he WAS Jehovah.
4. The phrase “I am” is one of the most common phrases in any language, and is said dozens of times by dozens of people in the Bible. Do you suppose ALL of those people were claiming to BE Jehovah – simply because they uttered the words, “I am”?
I'm begging you to THINK, man. I'm begging you.
Mikeb.I AM THAT I AM SIMPLY MEANS
I AM.
It does not mean Jehovah.
It simply means I AM WHAT EVER I AM.
GOD WAS SPEAKING THROUGH HIS WORD.
Always through His Word.
Israel was created by God through His Word.
All things were created through His Word.
Before Abraham was,I AM.
I was there.
Jesus/the Word, was the speaking to Moses.
Only later God introduced Himself by His name Jehovah.wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,12:16) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 16 2014,17:45) Hi Mike: The context has to do with the Jews accusing him of saying that he had seen Abraham, and he did not say that.
Marty,The Jews implied it was impossible for Jesus to have ever seen Abraham, since he wasn't even 50 years old yet.
And his response to them was that he had been in existence before Abraham ever came into existence.
Marty, do you have any comments at all on my two posts from yesterday? Is there any of the information I posted that you can refute? If not, I'll assume you accept every bit of both posts as the truth of the matter.
Mike:But you are not reading this in context: He said: “Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he saw it and was glad.”
And so, did he say that “he had seen Abraham, as the Jews were saying?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,12:13) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 16 2014,17:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 16 2014,09:40)
Do YOU suppose that you were created through your great, great grandson? YES or NO?And if “NO”, why not?
Hi Mike:What does that have to do with the fact that God knew that a specific time He would have a Son through whom He would reconcile the world unto Himself?
Please answer the question honestly and directly, Marty. Thanks.
Hi Mike:A stupid question doesn't deserve an answer.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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