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Mike…… Sence by “MAN” sin came into the world , it is by the “MAN” Jesus Christ , it was atoned for. Not by a “MORPHED” Prexisting being of any type. By A “MAN” Mike, not by a “MORPHED” being disguising himself as a MAN for a short period of time, Which is your rendition.
You have not produced one scripture where anyone was changed from his God given original state of being to any PHYSICAL MAN, not one mentioned in any scripture. Just Another “ASSUMPTION” on your part.
Anyone who reads John 1-4 can Easily see John was talking about GOD the FATHER and his OWN words only. It is God alone who enlighten every man that come into the World, Not Jesus, but the Spirit of GOD. IMO
peace and love………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 13 2014,16:44) T8……….How can you say we believe God just “INSTANTLY” Created another human to save all humans? It was planned by God, from the very beginning of his human creation to do that, nothing “INSTANT” about it. It all was in the will and foreknowledge of God from the start. Jesus' genealogy is listed in scripture from his berth on this earth all the way back to Adam who is called a SON of GOD also. Why would scripture even list his genealogy, if he Just “instantly” came in existence through a “MORPHING” PROCESS, that you believe in?
………………………….gene
Gene you still believe that. Did God know you before he created you? Did he know you before there was a creation. Were you in his mind as someone he would create down the line. If so, you put Jesus in the same category as you, except that he bypassed Adams genes, but got Eve's.So according to you, both you and Jesus were created on the spot, but were foreknown.
My guess is that you still believe that Jesus was created on the spot 2000 or so years ago.
Also Gene, God saved us through Jesus while he was in the flesh (after he existed in the form of God and emptied himself). I don't think anyone is disputing that he was a man.
What is disputed is that he came into existence 2000 years ago. We believe that he is the firstborn of all creation, that he existed before Abraham, and that he was with God in the beginning before there were even worlds in the form of God.
T8………I know what you believe, But did God foreknew me before i was born, Yes he did, it was him Who gave my Spirit in me, Scripture clearly say , for whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the (IMAGE) of his dear son. Did The LORD Our God know Jeremiah before he was ever born?, Here is what scripture says, Please notice carefully, Jer 1:4-5…> Then the “WORD” of God came unto me, saying (5) Before “I” formed you in the belly (I) Knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb, I (God) sanctified you, and I (God) ordained you a Prophet unto the nations.
Now can you, except that, and still deny that Jesus could have come into existence the same way, do you believe Jeremiah “PREEXISTED” His berth on this earth also, as some sentinel Being.
And what about King Cyrus, who God Prophesied by his very Name, to come into existence 200 years before his Berth, and even said the things he would do as God's “SERVANT” , and called him His Servant. God knew exactly what Adam and Eve would be, before they were ever created, and even knew what they would do before they did it, and Planned from the start of His human creation how to redeem mankind from there fallen state, By a “Perfected” Human being which he would bring forth into existence as a human being Just as he did Jeremiah and Cyrus the KING, at the “RIGHT” TIME.
T8…..I do believe Jesus was foreknown by God to come into existence at the right time and to perform the “Works” he had all along. those Works planned for him to do, Just as He also Knew what John the Baptist was going to do, he was also Prophesied to come, way before he ever existed.
Your belief that Jesus Preexisted as a living sentinel before he ever existed on this earth is wrong T8. Trinitarians Translators who are and were “Preexistences” as you and Mike and others are, forced the text to say what in fact was never meant to said, by altering word used in the Greek Language to try to support there false beliefs. IMO
T8 Jesus is no God of any kind,and he never existed before his berth on this earth, but did God know him before his berth into existence?, YES, He Did, Just as He foreknew Us also. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 13 2014,13:22) Yes Mike. They believe that God instantly created another human to save all humans. So now that they are together in Heaven, they are getting to know each other I suppose. The truth is, God created all things through Jesus Christ. This no one can deny who takes scripture seriously. Thus, it is fitting that God also redeems using the same one by whom he created all things. It makes sense. God created us. God redeemed us. He did both through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Yes, he did create all things through Jesus Christ. The scripture states:Quote
Eph 1:9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Tools specific to Eph 1:10
Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Jesus is the “last Adam” and is the propitiation for the sins of everyone who obeyed God by faith from the foundation of the world, and so, those who obeyed prior to his ministry will be born again from the dead when Jesus comes for the church, and the sins of those who come to God with a repentant heart since his ministry on earth are born again when they confess him as Lord, and his blood cleanses away their sins, and we are being made in the image of the last Adam in him.
He was in the “form of God” as God's Christ from his ministry one earth until the present and until all have been reconciled to God through him.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 14 2014,18:35) Yes, he did create all things through Jesus Christ.
Let's just leave it at that, Marty. You and I and t8 all agree that ALL THINGS (including the heavens, the earth, and everything in them) were created by God and through Jesus.Now we're all speaking the scriptural truth of the matter. Doesn't it feel good?
HI Mike:
You say:
Quote What is the bigger sacrifice, Marty: 1. You sacrifice that son you've already known and loved for 25 years?
2. Or you adopt a child from China, one you haven't even gotten to know yet, and sacrifice him instead?
See? Your understanding is that God did the latter. He just made a human being for the sole purpose of having him be a sacrifice. And in that case, YES, that human being could have just as well have been you or me. It would make no difference to God, because all He needed was any old human being.
Did I say that?
Jesus is not “just any old man”, He was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary. And His Father and my Father has shown me that “he is the Christ the Son of the Living God”.
He said that God loved him from the foundation of the world, and he says about us who are his disciples:
Quote
Eph 1:3
¶
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:Tools specific to Eph 1:4
Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
I'm still waiting for your reply to the second post on page 50……….. when you get the time of course.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,11:55) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 14 2014,18:35) Yes, he did create all things through Jesus Christ.
Let's just leave it at that, Marty. You and I and t8 all agree that ALL THINGS (including the heavens, the earth, and everything in them) were created by God and through Jesus.Now we're all speaking the scriptural truth of the matter. Doesn't it feel good?
Hi Mike:I know that I am speaking the truth. I have shown you how he as created all things through Jesus Christ, by the scriptures that I posted.
But apparently you don't want to accept the truth, perhaps because admitting that what you have been teaching is a misunderstanding of the scriptures would be difficult for you to do.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2014,06:30) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 12 2014,12:15) When Jesus said “I exist” he was referring to himself?
Of course.John 14:9 King James Version
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?Do you see the words I bolded? Do you know they are the same exact words that are in John 8:58?
John 8:58 King James Version
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.Marty, please tell me why you think the KJV translated those same exact Greek words as “I HAVE BEEN” in the first scripture, but as “I AM” in the second.
Does the phrasing, “Before Abraham was, I am“ really make sense to us in English?
How about the phrasing, “I am so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip” ?
Neither of those phrasings make sense to us in English. In English, we would say, “I HAVE BEEN” in BOTH cases.
So why do you suppose the KJV (and most Trinitarian sponsored Bibles) render it as “I AM” in 8:58, and as “I HAVE BEEN” in John 14:9?
And are YOU smart enough to know that the proper MEANING of Jesus' words in 8:58 is, “before Abraham was born, I have been”……….. just like you're smart enough to know the MEANING of Jesus' words in 14:9 is, “I have been with you a long time”?
Hi Mike:You want me to tell you why the translators the way they did, and all I can say, is that I suppose that it was the context of what was being said.
Love in Christ,
MartyUnlike you Marty,
I have no personal preferences. If the Bible taught that Jesus is the Most High God, I would accept that as truth.
If the Bible taught that Jesus began his existence as a human being 2000 years ago, I would accept that as truth.
But the Bible doesn't teach either of those things.
You say that all things WERE created through Jesus, right? Good. At least your not using that lame “on account of” thing anymore. See? We're making progress.
Now, can I sensibly claim that you were created THROUGH your parents? Of course, since you were indeed created through your parents. And why would that be sensible? Because your parents EXISTED before you did, and were therefore able to have you created through them.
But……… can I sensibly claim that you were created THROUGH your great, great grandchild? Of course not. Why? Because how could God create you THROUGH someone who wasn't even around to have you created through him?
So the second claim would be nonsensical, and people would laugh at anyone who claimed such a thing, right?
So tell me, how could God have created the heavens and the earth THROUGH Jesus if Jesus wasn't even around to have those things created through him?
Are you getting this? My understanding is the SENSIBLE one. So even if we left out all the other scriptures that speak of Jesus' pre-existence, just knowing that all things were created THROUGH him tells us that he must have BEEN THERE for all things to be created through him.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 14 2014,14:44) Also Gene, God saved us through Jesus while he was in the flesh (after he existed in the form of God and emptied himself). I don't think anyone is disputing that he was a man. What is disputed is that he came into existence 2000 years ago. We believe that he is the firstborn of all creation, that he existed before Abraham, and that he was with God in the beginning before there were even worlds in the form of God.
Well that he is a man that much is true, but you said:Quote Yes Mike. They believe that God instantly created another human to save all humans. So now that they are together in Heaven, they are getting to know each other I suppose. And the scriptures state this:
Quote
1Cr 15:21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Cr 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cr 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Please show me by the scriptures that “he was in the form of God prior to his birth into this world”.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 14 2014,19:29) Hi Mike: You want me to tell you why the translators the way they did, and all I can say, is that I suppose that it was the context of what was being said.
And in WHAT context would it make sense to say, “Before Abraham existed, I am“ ?Would we say, “I am with you since last year” ? Or would we say, “I HAVE BEEN with you since last year” ?
Which one?
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 14 2014,19:37) Please show me by the scriptures that “he was in the form of God prior to his birth into this world”.
Phil 2:6-8, Marty.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,12:35) Unlike you Marty, I have no personal preferences. If the Bible taught that Jesus is the Most High God, I would accept that as truth.
If the Bible taught that Jesus began his existence as a human being 2000 years ago, I would accept that as truth.
But the Bible doesn't teach either of those things.
You say that all things WERE created through Jesus, right? Good. At least your not using that lame “on account of” thing anymore. See? We're making progress.
Now, can I sensibly claim that you were created THROUGH your parents? Of course, since you were indeed created through your parents. And why would that be sensible? Because your parents EXISTED before you did, and were therefore able to have you created through them.
But……… can I sensibly claim that you were created THROUGH your great, great grandchild? Of course not. Why? Because how could God create you THROUGH someone who wasn't even around to have you created through him?
So the second claim would be nonsensical, and people would laugh at anyone who claimed such a thing, right?
So tell me, how could God have created the heavens and the earth THROUGH Jesus if Jesus wasn't even around to have those things created through him?
Are you getting this? My understanding is the SENSIBLE one. So even if we left out all the other scriptures that speak of Jesus' pre-existence, just knowing that all things were created THROUGH him tells us that he must have BEEN THERE for all things to be created through him.
Hi Mike:Do you suppose that when my dad was sowing his seed in the womb of my mother, he knew that he would have a boy at a precise moment in time?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,12:39) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 14 2014,19:37) Please show me by the scriptures that “he was in the form of God prior to his birth into this world”.
Phil 2:6-8, Marty.
No, Mike, it does not say that. It says that was “in the form of God” that much is true, but the rest is your interpretation of what is being stated.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 15 2014,12:37) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 14 2014,14:44) Also Gene, God saved us through Jesus while he was in the flesh (after he existed in the form of God and emptied himself). I don't think anyone is disputing that he was a man. What is disputed is that he came into existence 2000 years ago. We believe that he is the firstborn of all creation, that he existed before Abraham, and that he was with God in the beginning before there were even worlds in the form of God.
Well that he is a man that much is true, but you said:Quote Yes Mike. They believe that God instantly created another human to save all humans. So now that they are together in Heaven, they are getting to know each other I suppose. And the scriptures state this:
Quote
1Cr 15:21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Cr 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cr 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Please show me by the scriptures that “he was in the form of God prior to his birth into this world”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
I suppose if Mike heard Jesus say,
Before Abraham I AM.
He would have gone all red in the face , and start calling him names. Because it does not make sense to him.wakeup.
Mike…….I see no problem understanding what Jesus meant by Before Abraham I am, in the English language. The word before can mean in front of as in place, of importance, which seems to be the issue Jesus was dealing with, not his genealogy. Your taking it as he was existing as a Sentinel Being , but if that was true them why does scripture say Abraham was looking forward to the time of Christ then, if he already existed , it seem Abraham sure did not know he was existing already.
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 15 2014,18:14) Mike…….I see no problem understanding what Jesus meant by Before Abraham I am, in the English language. The word before can mean in front of as in place, of importance, which seems to be the issue Jesus was dealing with, not his genealogy. Your taking it as he was existing as a Sentinel Being , but if that was true them why does scripture say Abraham was looking forward to the time of Christ then, if he already existed , it seem Abraham sure did not know he was existing already. peace and love to you and yours………………………………………….gene
gQuote why does scripture say Abraham was looking forward to the time of Christ then, if he already existed Abraham was looking forward to the day of the coming of Christ ,this was the promise ,just as God promise that his descendant will receive the land were he was an stranger in it
now regarding to that day does not annul the fact that the one that will play the role of God's anointed one ,was God 's first creation HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON
just as Paul says in Col 1;15;21
John TB also said that Christ was before him , what you think he meant
To All……….Please consider ………> If Jesus was a “ordinary” human who came into being, at the time of his conception on this earth, and came into “BEING” Just as we do. A Child who was predestined, a Child , who God was with from his conception, a child who grew in stature and mental development just as we do, who had the same kind of body and mind we have a “PURE” Human Being Nothing more and nothing less. And at the age of 30 God Anointed him with his Spirit, and sent him out into the World to preach the Kingdom of God, a man just as Moses was a Man, and a servant of God , So this man Jesus was also, a Servant of God, and Just as Moses was also anointed with the spirit of God, so was Jesus and the Spirit lead Him and communed with Him the Will and Words of God, Just as he did with the Prophets of old.
Now with the help of God this man over came the world and committed no sin, a “PERFECT HUMAN BEING” The ONLY HUMAN who never sinned, from the creation of mankind. This “MAN” could have “NEVER” tasted death ever, because he never sinned, But it was shown this “MAN” Jesus, that he could be a Sacrificial Lamb of GOD, to remove The eternal death that was on all of Mankind. He could redeem his fellow mankind, by fulfilling the requirement of the Law of God, as a “KINSMEN REDEEMER” but price tag would cost him his life for a time the ONLY LIFE HE EVER KNEW. But it would redeem mankind from it's stated of Perishing < For the soul the Sins, it shall Parish, not jut die but Parish.
This Man Jesus was God's Example to us all of How to overcome the world by having a Personnel relationship with God the Father, Just as he did. He was a Perfect “EXAMPLE” that it can be accomplished by us, Just as it was accomplished by Him, we can come to the measure and full stature of Christ BY becoming “EXACTLY” like him in “EVERY” way. He was a MAN who reached Perfection by the help and “GRACE” of God.
The First HUMAN BEING” to reach the Goal GOD had in Mind for us all, the Firstborn from all creation to enter into the Kingdom of God He is the “EXAMPLE” FOR US “ALL” He give us who are 'HUMAN” Beings “Just as He is” great hope in knowing we can obtain to that EXACT SAME PERFECTION AS HE IS With God the FATHER.
Now what would be the first thing a enemy like SATAN would do to destroy that hope , what would be his first move, He would try to break Our “CONNECTION” OUR “EXACT” IDENTITY With Jesus. So how could he achieve this goal, how could he move Jesus away form humanity?, by Changing Jesus IDENTITY from a HUMAN BEING to a PREEXISTING GOD, or some other Kind of PREEXISTING Being, any thing that would work to CHANGE Jesus' “EXACT” Tie to the rest of HUMANITY, By Making HIM appear Different then we are.
So he worked early on in the minds of people the concept of Jesus being different, then the rest of HUMANITY, why because it would work to drive a “WEDGE” between Mankind and Jesus, and would work to “SEPARATE” his IDENTITY and “TIE” with us all. Satan very cleverly orchestrated it all from the very beginning. It started with the Gnostic's who John and Paul fought tirelessly to prevent this false teaching to take root in the churches, That is why John wrote whosoever confesses not that Christ Jesus came in the flesh is an Antichrist He repeated it in three of his letters , tho one has bee taken out, but originally was there. Paul wrote all of 2 Ths 2 , for the purpose to show how this iniquity was developing in the church and how he and other were suppressing it , but it could come to exist after they were taken out of the way, and in it time (325 AD) the Council of Necia the false Doctrine of the “TRINITY” which included PREEXISTENCE became established firmly in Christendom Both these false teaching work to “SEPARATE” and drive a wedge between Jesus and His fellow “HUMAN” Brother and sisters.
This was all very cleverly brought into existence and has thrown all Christendom into confusion, and while they confess Christ , they do not “TRULY” believe, they can be like him in every way, because this false teaching of the synagogue of Satan has blinded them all. But God has allowed them that LOVE the Truth to SEE THROW the LIE. But to the rest he has sent a deluding Spirit in order that they believe the “LIE”, So if God has deluded a person no amount of persuading can change them. IMO
peace and love to you all………………………………………….gene
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