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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 12 2014,10:26) Wakeup………Before you can even get started in knowing the truth , you have to come to see Jesus was a MAN, and never a God of any kind, and He never existed before his berth on this earth, except in the PLAN and WILL Of the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD, who by the way Jesus said was HIS GOD also. Let this truth in and it will enlighten you and you will begin to see things as Jesus and we also do. Wakeup PLEASE, dump all that past garbage and start a NEW, brother. peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene
Marty/Gene.Explain please,numbering one to five.
1.I am that bread that *came down* from heaven.
2.No man has been in heaven *but He* that came down from
heaven.
3.I came forth from the Father,I proceeded out of the Father.
4.Father; glorify me as the glory *we had* before the world
was.
5.Have I been so long with you; and you say show us the
Father? He who have seen me have seen the Father.wakeup.
Wakeup………So Jesus was praying to himself when he said this….. “OUR” FATHER who is in heaven, Holy be “THY” name, “THY” kingdom come , “THY” will be done, on earth as in heaven…….> So to you the word “THY” means Jesus right? Wait, There more, when Jesus said
“THOU” the “ONLY” true GOD Tell me Wakeup was Jesus talking about Himself or someone else who was the “ONLY” TRUE GOD? Wait there is more, Jesus said I am going to your Father and my Father YOUR GOD “AND” “MY” GOD was he talking about going to himself, and was his Father, “HIMSELF also”?Jesus was “Prophesied” to come into “Existence” as the “Messiah”, he was definitely sent from God into the world, he was predestined from his berth on this earth to do what he did and indeed he was sent from God “AS THE MESSIAH” or Anointed ONE of GOD. He had “NO” preexistence of life before his berth on this earth, he was a SON OF GOD also and in that sense he was sent from GOD, but so was John the Baptist, and King Cyrus and for that matter we all came from God also.
Wakeup………Until you get rid of all your Past Trinitarian and Preexistence garbage you carry, you will not even begin to understand the word of GOD correctly> IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 10 2014,03:56) Mikeb. 1. Who is He that emptied Himself?
2. Is he the spokesman?
3. If so;what was he before?
wakeup.
1. Jesus.2. Yes.
3. He was non-existent until his and our God created him as the first of His works.
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 10 2014,04:03) Mike b. You are contradicting yourself.
1.You say He is a spokesman.2.You believe he preexisted?
3.You also believe he emptied Himself.
4.WHO IS HE?
5.But you dont believe He is the litteral Word
of God.6. What do you really believe?
1. Yes.2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Jesus.
5. Not in a million years.
6. Exactly what the Bible teaches. Jesus, who has as one of his many titles “The Word of God”, was the first being God ever created. Then God, ALONE and BY HIMSELF, created all other things THROUGH that firstborn Son. Then that firstborn Son was asked to empty himself of his heavenly prestige and position to be made in the likeness of a human being. The Son did so, lived as a human for 33 years, and was then crucified. His God then raised him up from the dead in the same body in which he died, because he had 40 more days of work left on earth before he could return to heaven. After those 40 days were up, God caused him to ascend to where he was before – right in front of some of the disciples. He now sits at the right hand of his and our God, waiting for his God to place all his enemies at his feet. When God does this, he will destroy those enemies, the last of which will be death.
Does any of that sound familiar from the scriptures, Wakeup? If not, get yourself a better Bible.
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 10 2014,10:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2014,14:19) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 09 2014,20:29) And, Jesus explained what he meant by stating that “'before Abraham was 'I Am'”……….
What happens to your doctrine if you use the correct English translation, Marty.What happens if you realize that Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I have existed” ?
Would THAT be enough to put you on the right track?
I often wonder about things like that. Every time I see you non-preexisters bending over backwards to understand certain scriptural words in a NONSENSICAL way to support your doctrine – I wonder what would happen if you let yourselves understand those words in the most sensible and logical way they could be understood.
Hmmm……….
Hi Mike:Let's see what Jesus said if we read John 8 in context. You want to take one part of the scriptures and form your opinion based on that one statement.
He said:
Quote
Jhn 8:40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Jhn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (I exist)
And so, he was speaking of himself existing as a man, and you know that he did not exist as a man until he was born into this world if in fact he did pre-exist. And therefore, he was not speaking of existing as a sentient person, but he was foreordained to be sent by God to reconcile the world unto himself at a specific point in time, and so, he did exist in the heart of the Father who has foreseen all things according to His plan for this world and for humanity.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Yes Marty,Jesus WAS INDEED a man when he was on earth. Tell me how that changes the fact that the MAN who dwelled on earth from 1AD to 33AD also existed before Abraham did?
I'm not seeing how you listing the whole passage of John 8 changes a single thing I've said. Nor do I see how listing that passage somehow supports your claim that Jesus DIDN'T pre-exist.
Please show me these things that I seem to be missing.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 10 2014,10:32) But on the very hour when they came and shaved his head and started to take him to the chamber where the chair was , he pissed his pants, and had to have a guard on both sides of him to support him because he could not even walk, Not a single boastful word Just trembling and shaking and moaning. He was shaking so bad they couldn't hardly get the skull cap on him and strap him in. I tell you for sure that was not the same big talking man that existed the day before the reality set in.
Gene,If I had the chance to exchange my own life for the life of my 12 year old son, I would make that decision without one second of hesitation.
Am I saying that I wouldn't be scared and shaking when they led me off to my execution? Absolutely not. I would most likely be terrified. I would probably piss my pants and have to be carried because of wobbling knees.
BUT I WOULD STILL DO IT WITHOUT A MOMENT'S HESITATION!
And I can only think that you also would be man enough to give up your life for your son – if the situation arose.
So, if I would do that for only the short EARTHLY life of my son, I would JUMP at the chance to do it for eternity at God's right hand, ruling over the heavens and the earth.
Now, when the moment of death came, I would be shaking. I might even ask God if there was a DIFFERENT way for me to rule at His right hand for eternity. Sound familiar?
So YES, I would be petrified when the time came. But I would do it a thousand times if it meant I could rule at God's right hand for eternity.
Face it Gene, your Jesus simply died like all men die. And he died earlier than he should have – like MILLIONS of people do. But nevertheless, your Jesus would have died of natural causes anyway.
My Jesus never had to dwell as a lowly human being at all – let alone die.
My Jesus made a huge SACRIFICE. Your Jesus won the greatest lottery of all time.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 10 2014,10:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2014,13:58) Gene, does the FACT that the King of Abyissinia's SPOKESMAN was called “The Word of the King” imply that the king's SPOKESMAN was in fact a literal spoken word or words from the king? YES or NO?
Mike….. NO The spokesman was not the LITERIAL word of the KING, because he spoke the kings word , he was the quoter of the Kings Words.
Great Gene! You have answered correctly.Now, simply apply that historical FACT to the case of “the Word of God”.
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 10 2014,13:32) Hi Mike: It was a piece of cake for him?
Quote Luke 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
What do you think?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,MILLIONS of people have been tortured and killed by other human beings. I never said it was “easy”.
What I said is that I would jump at the chance – knowing the great trade-off I was making.
Wouldn't you?
Are you and Gene SERIOUSLY saying that you WOULDN'T spend a day being crucified in exchange for eternity at God's right hand?
You need to read these words from Jesus again:
John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2014,04:13) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 10 2014,13:32) Hi Mike: It was a piece of cake for him?
Quote Luke 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
What do you think?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,MILLIONS of people have been tortured and killed by other human beings. I never said it was “easy”.
What I said is that I would jump at the chance – knowing the great trade-off I was making.
Wouldn't you?
Are you and Gene SERIOUSLY saying that you WOULDN'T spend a day being crucified in exchange for eternity at God's right hand?
You need to read these words from Jesus again:
John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
No, Mike, I would not jump at the chance. If I did, I would fail, and the whole of humanity would be lost. He obeyed all of this without sinning.I don't believe that you know what you are saying. Otherwise, why did not God get you do die for us, and spare Jesus the pain and suffering.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2014,03:56) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 10 2014,10:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2014,14:19) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 09 2014,20:29) And, Jesus explained what he meant by stating that “'before Abraham was 'I Am'”……….
What happens to your doctrine if you use the correct English translation, Marty.What happens if you realize that Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I have existed” ?
Would THAT be enough to put you on the right track?
I often wonder about things like that. Every time I see you non-preexisters bending over backwards to understand certain scriptural words in a NONSENSICAL way to support your doctrine – I wonder what would happen if you let yourselves understand those words in the most sensible and logical way they could be understood.
Hmmm……….
Hi Mike:Let's see what Jesus said if we read John 8 in context. You want to take one part of the scriptures and form your opinion based on that one statement.
He said:
Quote
Jhn 8:40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Jhn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (I exist)
And so, he was speaking of himself existing as a man, and you know that he did not exist as a man until he was born into this world if in fact he did pre-exist. And therefore, he was not speaking of existing as a sentient person, but he was foreordained to be sent by God to reconcile the world unto himself at a specific point in time, and so, he did exist in the heart of the Father who has foreseen all things according to His plan for this world and for humanity.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Yes Marty,Jesus WAS INDEED a man when he was on earth. Tell me how that changes the fact that the MAN who dwelled on earth from 1AD to 33AD also existed before Abraham did?
I'm not seeing how you listing the whole passage of John 8 changes a single thing I've said. Nor do I see how listing that passage somehow supports your claim that Jesus DIDN'T pre-exist.
Please show me these things that I seem to be missing.
Mike:When Jesus said “I exist” he was referring to himself?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 12 2014,12:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2014,04:13)
Are you and Gene SERIOUSLY saying that you WOULDN'T spend a day being crucified in exchange for eternity at God's right hand?You need to read these words from Jesus again:
John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
No, Mike, I would not jump at the chance.
Then you are one who loves his life in this world – contrary to what Jesus taught you.Quote …..why did not God get you do die for us, and spare Jesus the pain and suffering.
Wouldn't make any difference, according to YOUR belief that God just chose any old human for the sacrifice.So could God have chosen ME to be the one who was not born of the seed of man, and therefore NOT born into sin like the rest? Sure, according to YOUR understanding.
See what I mean, Marty? You think that God just picked a regular old human, put a lot of His Spirit on this regular old human, and that was all God sacrificed.
Really?
How was it a SACRIFICE for God to just create a new being He never really knew, and allow him to be killed as a sacrifice?
Here's an analogy for you:
Let's say that you have your own son who you've raised since birth, and loved with all your heart for the last 25 years. And now the time comes for you to make a SACRIFICE.
What is the bigger sacrifice, Marty:
1. You sacrifice that son you've already known and loved for 25 years?
2. Or you adopt a child from China, one you haven't even gotten to know yet, and sacrifice him instead?
See? Your understanding is that God did the latter. He just made a human being for the sole purpose of having him be a sacrifice. And in that case, YES, that human being could have just as well have been you or me. It would make no difference to God, because all He needed was any old human being.
On the other hand, the SCRIPTURAL teaching is that God brought Jesus forth as the first of His works, created all things through him, loved him from before the foundation of the world, and then offered this firstborn Son, who had been with Him from the very beginning, as a sacrifice.
So I ask you once more: In which scenario was the sacrifice of both the Father and the Son a GREATER sacrifice? Your scenario? Or the SCRIPTURAL one?
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 12 2014,12:15) When Jesus said “I exist” he was referring to himself?
Of course.John 14:9 King James Version
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?Do you see the words I bolded? Do you know they are the same exact words that are in John 8:58?
John 8:58 King James Version
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.Marty, please tell me why you think the KJV translated those same exact Greek words as “I HAVE BEEN” in the first scripture, but as “I AM” in the second.
Does the phrasing, “Before Abraham was, I am“ really make sense to us in English?
How about the phrasing, “I am so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip” ?
Neither of those phrasings make sense to us in English. In English, we would say, “I HAVE BEEN” in BOTH cases.
So why do you suppose the KJV (and most Trinitarian sponsored Bibles) render it as “I AM” in 8:58, and as “I HAVE BEEN” in John 14:9?
And are YOU smart enough to know that the proper MEANING of Jesus' words in 8:58 is, “before Abraham was born, I have been”……….. just like you're smart enough to know the MEANING of Jesus' words in 14:9 is, “I have been with you a long time”?
Mike:
God had provide the sacrifice for the sins of the world because all men born of the sperm of man have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There may have been those who were tortured or suffered all kinds of things from evil men, but they did not obey God without sin even unto death of the cross.
God knew that a specific point in time He would have a Son who would be born of a virgin, through whom He would reconcile the world unto Himself. And Jesus did not begin his ministry until he was thirty years old.
It is through him that we come to God, and it is in him that we become the “last Adam”.To lose your life for his sake and the sake of the gospel is to put him first in every thing. It is to put him above all other interests in this life for the sake of those who will be saved by virtue of your obedience to his word. For example, he said if you love any member of your family more than him, you are not worthy to be his disciple.
Quote
1Jo 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Quote
Jhn 17:14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Jhn 17:15
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Jhn 17:16
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world
I have to go for now. I will try to answer more of your questions later.
Love in Christ,
MartyYes Mike. They believe that God instantly created another human to save all humans. So now that they are together in Heaven, they are getting to know each other I suppose.
The truth is, God created all things through Jesus Christ. This no one can deny who takes scripture seriously. Thus, it is fitting that God also redeems using the same one by whom he created all things. It makes sense. God created us. God redeemed us. He did both through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 13 2014,09:19) God knew that a specific point in time He would have a Son who would be born of a virgin, through whom He would reconcile the world unto Himself. And Jesus did not begin his ministry until he was thirty years old.
It is through him that we come to God, and it is in him that we become the “last Adam”.
Marty……..You have it right brother.peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
T8……….How can you say we believe God just “INSTANTLY” Created another human to save all humans? It was planned by God, from the very beginning of his human creation to do that, nothing “INSTANT” about it. It all was in the will and foreknowledge of God from the start.
Jesus' genealogy is listed in scripture from his berth on this earth all the way back to Adam who is called a SON of GOD also. Why would scripture even list his genealogy, if he Just “instantly” came in existence through a “MORPHING” PROCESS, that you believe in?
It would be a “LIE” to even LIST his human Genealogy in the first place, if he did not come into existence the way it lists Right?, common sense should tell you that. No it is you guys who believe He was “INSTANTLY” MORPHED into a human body from another existence not us. IMO
peace and love to you and your………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 12 2014,05:16) Terricca and wakeup………Wrong Me and Marty understand exactly what we are reading and our understanding lines up with all scriptures. You guys cant even believe simple straight foreword scriptures, like where Jesus said to His God, thou art the “ONLY” true God. Did you guys miss the word “ONLY” there. or perhaps this is even clearer for you seeing you deny, what God himself Said , that there is “NO” God Besides “ME”. And here is another scripture, You can say is wrong, like all the others you people twist and disagree with. ! cor 8:4……… we know that there is no idol in the world, and that there is “NO” God, but “ONE”.
So tell us O wise ones, do we still don't even understand, or is it YOU guys, who truly don't understand. I could list many, many. ,many scriptures that go along with what we are saying. Not to even mention the Spriit bears witness with our Spirits that we are telling the truth and presenting it right. It is you guys who have to add words and meanings to scriptures and change from upper case lettering to lower case lettering , to try to make little God's and big God's, and “MANY” God's. you guys, Force the texts to say, what in fact it is not saying, not us. IMO
peace and love……………………………………….gene
GeneThe only thing that those scriptures showing is that there is only one supreme GOD. And I cannot agree more ,but that does not make any other god a false one ,:::there are many presidents in the USA but there is only that run the country. Would that make the others false ones and not worty to listen to it ,Abraham listen to them so did Lot his relative
Think about it
Terrica……. That scripture does not say “Supreme” God , it say “TRUE” GOD, so why do you try to change its meaning to fit yours and Mike's false teachings? Being a President is one thing or even a Judge, or ruler, but being (A) GOD is quite another. The meaning of the word President does not require devotion or even trust and faith in, But being a God does require it from his or her or its subjects. Thats the difference.
Look I have said if an ant is worshiped and a person trusts in it, it can be their GOD, not little god but Big GOD. But to Me, Jesus, and all “true believers” we have ONLY “ONE” TRUE GOD, Nothing else is a GOD big or little ,to US. We (true believers) believe that there is “NO” GOD, but “ONE”> All other are false God to US, you people can believe in all the God's you want to, but not Me or Jesus and other true believers, we have a GOD and he is the “ONLY” GOD to US that is. I RECOGNIZE NO OTHER GOD BUT “YAHWEH” and HIM ALONE> IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 12 2014,20:22) Yes Mike. They believe that God instantly created another human to save all humans. So now that they are together in Heaven, they are getting to know each other I suppose. The truth is, God created all things through Jesus Christ. This no one can deny who takes scripture seriously. Thus, it is fitting that God also redeems using the same one by whom he created all things. It makes sense. God created us. God redeemed us. He did both through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Exactly. And Gene's point that God knew He would create Jesus from a long time ago doesn't change the point we are making. Because their understanding STILL means that God instantly created a human being in 1 AD, and used that NEWLY CREATED human being as a sacrificial lamb.
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