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Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 02 2014,06:50) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 02 2014,04:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 29 2013,13:49) Hi Marty, Yes, Tertullian IS the one who coined the phrase “trinity”. But that doesn't change the logic of his words that I quoted.
Marty, did God, ALONE and BY HIMSELF, create you?
Mike:The question is whether Jesus was with him in some pre-existent state, and God said he was alone when he created the heaven and the earth, and the host thereof.
I was not there, and you were not either, and neither was Jesus he said that he did it alone. He did not say that someone was there.
I was born from the seed of the creation, and so, I am one of God creatures, a man born of the sperm of Adam through my mom and dad, and so, yes, God alone created me, but that is not the issue. I was not there when he created the first man or woman, and neither was Jesus. He is also a man. God said he was alone, and accomplished the creation by Himself, as is stated in Genesis, the book beginnings.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty.And the *Word WAS WITH GOD*
Someone with God.
HERE IS THAT SOMEONE(the Word). Coming back,with revenge,and to collect what is his (saints).Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and ***his name is called The Word of God***.
wakeup.
Wakeup:The scripture states that “The Word” was with God, true, and it means that he had a plan for this world and for humanity, but it does not say that “the Word is a person”.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 06 2014,05:46) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 05 2014,08:56) Marty……….I have no problem with that , It is Jesus who is to have that “NAME” on Him. why because he will be “REPRESENTING” and “SPEAKING” GOD'S the FATHERS words to us.
So why then can't Jesus be the one who “has that name on him” in John 1:1 and 1:14 – for that SAME reason?
Mike……….Because Jesus is not a GOD, he is the SON OF GOD, JUST LIKE ADAM WAS and we are. Adam is no GOD and neither are we nor Jesus. Jesus said that God is SPIRIT, “AND” HIS WORDS are SPIRIT. Jesus also said He was “NOT” a SPIRIT, and also said clearly the Words he told us was “NOT” “HIS” WORDS,So now if GOD is a SPIRIT, and JESUS IS NOT A SPIRIT according to him any way, then how could he be a GOD of any KIND?, Not even to mention, Jesus told us he was going to OUR GOD and HIS GOD, OUR FATHER and HIS FATHER. So Jesus identified himself “EXACTLY” as ONE of US HUMAN beings
I have told you before the “DOCTRINE OF SEPARATION” is a Satanic DESIGNED TEACHING that works to push Jesus and GOD the FATHER away from all humanity, it is directly from the synagogues of Satan himself. Jesus himself will destroy it with the breath of his mouth at his return Just as 2 Ths 2 says.
So that, “DOCTRINE of SEPARATION”, will last until JESUS returns that is for sure, but not after he returns, because that will be his first duty to completely “ABOLISH” that false teaching, which turned Jesus a MAN, into A GOD, creating an FALSE “IMAGE” OF HIM AS A GOD.
peace and love ……………………………gene
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 07 2014,02:28) Hi Gene: All we can do is keep sharing the truth with them, and praying that God will reveal to them that it is the truth.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty……….Amen brother, we are being exercised by all this for a future time. There is a prophesy, as i recall that says, I saw the lord descending from Mount Paron with ten thousands of his saint to execute judgement in the earth and convince all the ungodly of all their ungodly sins which they have ungodly committed.peace and love to you and yours Marty……………………..gene
Hi Pierre:
In response to your post, the scriptures state:
Quote
Gen 1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And there is a difference in saying “let us make man in our image” which is a progression, and in saying that God “created man in his image”.
God does not tell us to whom he was speaking when he said “let us make man in our image”, but Jesus is a man, and so, definitely he was not there, but the angels were there and God did use them in speaking the Word of God to man. It is through the Word of God that man is being made in his image, and Jesus is the “last Adam” and is the express image of God's person, and so this God's ultimate goal for mankind, “that he become the last Adam”. He used the angels, and men in this progression, Noah, Moses, Pharoah, Joshua, and ultimately Jesus, and now we who are his disciples, also. We are being made in His image by God through Jesus Christ, now, but those who obeyed God prior to the ministry of Jesus will also be in his image through the Word of God and by the blood of the Lord that will wash away their sins, and they will be born again from the dead when Jesus comes for the church.
The initial creation of man and everything in the world. He said he was alone in this creation. Here is what the scriptures state relative to man:
Quote
Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
That scripture does not state that he did it through anyone. He did this alone.
Proverbs 8 is speaking about wisdom and all mankind who choose to obey His Word which is His wisdom, and this may refer to Jesus indirectly, because the scriptures state:
Quote
1Cr 1:30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
But this scripture is key in understanding that Jesus is the ground reason through whom God created the worlds and humanity.
Quote
Eph 1:7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
And so, it was God's plan from the foundation of the world to send Jesus to reconcile all things which are in heaven or on earth unto Himself, but he did not come into being as a sentient person until he was born into this world. No, man can come to the Father but through him, because all men have sinned, and without the blood of Jesus to wash away our sins, there would no man be saved.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty……….That is absolutely right brother, Jesus is the summation of all things because he is the fulfillment of that Goal God had in mind for us all , that is exactly why He said I am the first “AND” the last He is the first to achieve that Goal and the Last will be Just like HIM, in that way all things are summed up in Christ, both in heaven and in earth. It all fits together perfectly, but it takes the Spirit of God to unravel all the many, many years, of false teaching . My hope and prayer is that God will use us to save some, pulling them out of the fire, into the glorious LIBERTY of the SON of GOD.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 06 2014,22:24) Hi Pierre: In response to your post, the scriptures state:
Quote
Gen 1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And there is a difference in saying “let us make man in our image” which is a progression, and in saying that God “created man in his image”.
God does not tell us to whom he was speaking when he said “let us make man in our image”, but Jesus is a man, and so, definitely he was not there, but the angels were there and God did use them in speaking the Word of God to man. It is through the Word of God that man is being made in his image, and Jesus is the “last Adam” and is the express image of God's person, and so this God's ultimate goal for mankind, “that he become the last Adam”. He used the angels, and men in this progression, Noah, Moses, Pharoah, Joshua, and ultimately Jesus, and now we who are his disciples, also. We are being made in His image by God through Jesus Christ, now, but those who obeyed God prior to the ministry of Jesus will also be in his image through the Word of God and by the blood of the Lord that will wash away their sins, and they will be born again from the dead when Jesus comes for the church.
The initial creation of man and everything in the world. He said he was alone in this creation. Here is what the scriptures state relative to man:
Quote
Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
That scripture does not state that he did it through anyone. He did this alone.
Proverbs 8 is speaking about wisdom and all mankind who choose to obey His Word which is His wisdom, and this may refer to Jesus indirectly, because the scriptures state:
Quote
1Cr 1:30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
But this scripture is key in understanding that Jesus is the ground reason through whom God created the worlds and humanity.
Quote
Eph 1:7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
And so, it was God's plan from the foundation of the world to send Jesus to reconcile all things which are in heaven or on earth unto Himself, but he did not come into being as a sentient person until he was born into this world. No, man can come to the Father but through him, because all men have sinned, and without the blood of Jesus to wash away our sins, there would no man be saved.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyYou only see ,your own view .not what scriptures teach,
You quote scriptures that you cannot understand ,because you have already set your mind on what it should mean,
So let it be as it stands now ,and see in time .
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 07 2014,15:54) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 06 2014,22:24) Hi Pierre: In response to your post, the scriptures state:
Quote
Gen 1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And there is a difference in saying “let us make man in our image” which is a progression, and in saying that God “created man in his image”.
God does not tell us to whom he was speaking when he said “let us make man in our image”, but Jesus is a man, and so, definitely he was not there, but the angels were there and God did use them in speaking the Word of God to man. It is through the Word of God that man is being made in his image, and Jesus is the “last Adam” and is the express image of God's person, and so this God's ultimate goal for mankind, “that he become the last Adam”. He used the angels, and men in this progression, Noah, Moses, Pharoah, Joshua, and ultimately Jesus, and now we who are his disciples, also. We are being made in His image by God through Jesus Christ, now, but those who obeyed God prior to the ministry of Jesus will also be in his image through the Word of God and by the blood of the Lord that will wash away their sins, and they will be born again from the dead when Jesus comes for the church.
The initial creation of man and everything in the world. He said he was alone in this creation. Here is what the scriptures state relative to man:
Quote
Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
That scripture does not state that he did it through anyone. He did this alone.
Proverbs 8 is speaking about wisdom and all mankind who choose to obey His Word which is His wisdom, and this may refer to Jesus indirectly, because the scriptures state:
Quote
1Cr 1:30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
But this scripture is key in understanding that Jesus is the ground reason through whom God created the worlds and humanity.
Quote
Eph 1:7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
And so, it was God's plan from the foundation of the world to send Jesus to reconcile all things which are in heaven or on earth unto Himself, but he did not come into being as a sentient person until he was born into this world. No, man can come to the Father but through him, because all men have sinned, and without the blood of Jesus to wash away our sins, there would no man be saved.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyYou only see ,your own view .not what scriptures teach,
You quote scriptures that you cannot understand ,because you have already set your mind on what it should mean,
So let it be as it stands now ,and see in time .
Hi Pierre:I gave you scripture for what I believe is the truth, but yes, unless you can show me by the scriptures that what I am teaching here is incorrect, it will have to be as it stands.
I am open to correction, but you have to teach me by the scriptures, and I will be convinced. If you cannot do that, you are wasting your time trying to correct me.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (terraricca @ Jan. 07 2014,15:54) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 06 2014,22:24) Hi Pierre: In response to your post, the scriptures state:
Quote
Gen 1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And there is a difference in saying “let us make man in our image” which is a progression, and in saying that God “created man in his image”.
God does not tell us to whom he was speaking when he said “let us make man in our image”, but Jesus is a man, and so, definitely he was not there, but the angels were there and God did use them in speaking the Word of God to man. It is through the Word of God that man is being made in his image, and Jesus is the “last Adam” and is the express image of God's person, and so this God's ultimate goal for mankind, “that he become the last Adam”. He used the angels, and men in this progression, Noah, Moses, Pharoah, Joshua, and ultimately Jesus, and now we who are his disciples, also. We are being made in His image by God through Jesus Christ, now, but those who obeyed God prior to the ministry of Jesus will also be in his image through the Word of God and by the blood of the Lord that will wash away their sins, and they will be born again from the dead when Jesus comes for the church.
The initial creation of man and everything in the world. He said he was alone in this creation. Here is what the scriptures state relative to man:
Quote
Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
That scripture does not state that he did it through anyone. He did this alone.
Proverbs 8 is speaking about wisdom and all mankind who choose to obey His Word which is His wisdom, and this may refer to Jesus indirectly, because the scriptures state:
Quote
1Cr 1:30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
But this scripture is key in understanding that Jesus is the ground reason through whom God created the worlds and humanity.
Quote
Eph 1:7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
And so, it was God's plan from the foundation of the world to send Jesus to reconcile all things which are in heaven or on earth unto Himself, but he did not come into being as a sentient person until he was born into this world. No, man can come to the Father but through him, because all men have sinned, and without the blood of Jesus to wash away our sins, there would no man be saved.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyYou only see ,your own view .not what scriptures teach,
You quote scriptures that you cannot understand ,because you have already set your mind on what it should mean,
So let it be as it stands now ,and see in time .
Terricca……….Wrong i also see it that way and so do others i might add. It is you who are not seeing it right? IMOpeace and love………………………..gene
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 07 2014,02:28) Hi Gene: All we can do is keep sharing the truth with them, and praying that God will reveal to them that it is the truth.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty And Gene.If that is the case:
Explain these scriptures.1.I am that bread that came down from heaven.
2.No man has been in heaven but *HE* that came down
from heaven.
3.*He* had glory with God *before* the world was.
4.*He* is the alpha and omega,the first and the last.
Who is alive, and was dead.wakeup.
Quote Marty You only see ,your own view .not what scriptures teach,
You quote scriptures that you cannot understand ,because you have already set your mind on what it should mean,
So let it be as it stands now ,and see in time .
Marty, this is how we see your stance with this. Scripture is clear about Jesus being before Abraham and his origins being from ancient times. We know that is the only one to see God and to declare him which makes sense if there was only God and the Word who is Jesus before creation of the universe. Additionally, we know that whoever the first to be with God is, he must be the most special because he is the first-born of all creation. Finally we are taught that he existed in the form of God. If there was only God and Jesus, then he was begotten with God's nature as there would be no other nature by which he would have come.Quote (942767 @ Jan. 04 2014,02:54) T8: I said that I was not created as Adam was created, and that I was born of the sperm of man, and therefore, I am a part of the creation. I am one of God's creatures.
But t8, what was being discussed was whether or not Jesus was used by God in the initial creation because the scriptures state that God created all things through Jesus Christ.
Love in Christ,
Marty
You said this.Quote I am born of Adam's seed, but no He did not create me, He formed me in the womb from the sperm of Adam in the womb of my mother. What you need to say then is something like, “I meant …”, because you clearly stated that you were not created, thus why I questioned your statement.
As for Jesus being the Word that God created all things through, yes this is true.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Notice the through whom we live. This would be true of all men including Adam. If not, why not? Scripture also states that the head of the man is Christ just as it says, that the head of the woman is the man.
Some think that rejection of the Trinity means rejection of the preexistence of Christ. Not so. Many who reject the Trinity believe that he was the first born of all creation. The first to be with God, and the only one to see him and declare him. After all, Jesus is now in the glory that he had with the Father, before the world began. Also, God paid the highest price for us. He didn't create a savour on the spot and send him to die. No he sent the one who was first with him, and through whom he created all things. Thus it was fitting that is was also he who is redeeming all things.
Even John Locke and Isaac Newton appear to have maintained belief in the pre-existence of Christ despite their rejection of the Trinity. I concur with them on this as do many others.
Scripture is full of direct references to Christ's pre-existence and also many scriptures that allude to him such as the fourth man in the fire in the Book of Daniel.
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 06 2014,08:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 06 2014,05:46) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 05 2014,08:56) Marty……….I have no problem with that , It is Jesus who is to have that “NAME” on Him. why because he will be “REPRESENTING” and “SPEAKING” GOD'S the FATHERS words to us.
So why then can't Jesus be the one who “has that name on him” in John 1:1 and 1:14 – for that SAME reason?
Hi Mike:He can't because the scriptures do not state that.
Marty,Gene is smart enough to know WHY Jesus has as one of his many names, “The Word of God”. He listed the reasons as, he will be “REPRESENTING” and “SPEAKING” GOD'S the FATHERS words to us.
I want to know why those SAME EXACT REASONS cannot by applied in John 1:1 and 1:14.
After all, John's gospel teaches about someone who came in the flesh, and went about “representing and speaking God the Father's words to us”, right?
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 06 2014,08:57) It states Word or Logos in John 1, and the Logos was God. Jesus is not God, but the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Your second sentence is spot on, Marty. But what about your claim in the first sentence?Since every Greek scholar KNOWS for a FACT that “God” is only ONE of the ways John 1:1c could be translated, and that it could also be translated as “a god”, how did YOU become so sure that “God” is the correct translation?
Is it because it makes perfect sense to you that “God” was WITH “God” in the beginning?
Is it because it makes perfect sense to you that a possession OF God could also BE the very God who possessed him?
Please explain to me the research and thought processes YOU went through to determine that the correct translation of John 1:1c is the one that tells us our one and only God was WITH our one and only God in the beginning. Explain to me how you concluded that it was sensible for something OF God to also BE the very God it was OF.
And after concluding that the Word OF God actually WAS the very God it was the Word OF, did you start worshiping this Word of God as your own God?
If not, then WHY NOT? You've concluded that the thing God was WITH was actually the very God who was WITH that thing, right? So if that is the case, I should be able to hear stories about the times you bowed your head and prayed to the Word OF God, right? Because the Word OF God actually IS the very God who created you, right?
And how does that work when you get to Revelation 19:13 – and find out that it is JESUS who is called “The Word of God”? Do you continue on with this “sensible” belief you started in John 1 – and worship and pray to JESUS as your God? If not, what happened between John 1 and Revelation 19:13? Did the thing that used to both BE God and be WITH God all of a sudden STOP being God, and start being someone else?
So really Marty, I'd like to hear exactly HOW you came to your conclusion that “the Word was God“ is the best translation of John 1:1c. And I'd like to know what expertise in the Greek language causes you to KNOW that this is the ONLY valid translation of those Greek words.
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 06 2014,08:57) He has that name now because he obeyed the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross. And he has that name now also because no man can come to the Father except through him, and he is the judge of the living and the dead.
1. First of all, how do you KNOW this is a “new name” of Jesus? Which SCRIPTURE tells us that?2. Even IF “the Word of God” is a NEW name, what exactly would it change? If John wrote Revelation BEFORE he wrote his gospel (as most scholars believe), then why couldn't John call Jesus “the Word” in his gospel as well?
See? Even IF it was a new name Jesus received AFTER he was raised to heaven, there is no reason John couldn't have used that new name when he wrote his gospel, right?
3. What do the QUALITIES you've listed (“he obeyed without sin”, “he judges the living and the dead”) have to do with the title, “The WORD of God”?
In other words, why would a JUDGE be called “the WORD”? And what does “WORD” have to do with being sinless?
Don't you think Gene's astute observations about Revelation 19:13 make a better reason for someone being called “The WORD of God”? I do.
Now I just wish Gene would let go of his personal preferences, and apply those same reasons to why Jesus was called by the same name in John 1.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 06 2014,10:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 06 2014,05:46) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 05 2014,08:56) Marty……….I have no problem with that , It is Jesus who is to have that “NAME” on Him. why because he will be “REPRESENTING” and “SPEAKING” GOD'S the FATHERS words to us.
So why then can't Jesus be the one who “has that name on him” in John 1:1 and 1:14 – for that SAME reason?
Mike……….Because Jesus is not a GOD, he is the SON OF GOD…………
Gene,I've answered that point in my post to Marty. That post to Marty was really for the both of you.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 07 2014,17:27) God paid the highest price for us. He didn't create a saviour on the spot and send him to die.
If God did just create a savior on the spot, then Jesus didn't really “sacrifice” anything at all. Instead, he won the greatest lottery of all time.Which of us wouldn't trade a day of suffering and the loss of a few decades of human life for eternity at the right hand of God, ruling over the entire heavens and earth?
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 07 2014,17:27) Even John Locke and Isaac Newton appear to have maintained belief in the pre-existence of Christ despite their rejection of the Trinity. I concur with them on this as do many others.
Our member tigger has a blog site where one can read a lot of good stuff refuting the Trinity Doctrine. He has put a lot of time and research into his (her?) writings, and the results are scholarly.I asked him if he had written anything on the pre-existence of Christ. And his response was, in essence, I had never given a moment's consideration that Christ didn't pre-exist, and have therefore not written anything about that subject.
That brought me back a few years, to when I was on Heaven Net debating the Trinity with Keith, Jack, Kathi and Paul. I ONLY posted in Trinity threads at first. I remember being completely SHOCKED when I checked out a thread called “Preexistence”, and realized that there were people out there who DIDN'T believe Jesus pre-existed his flesh.
I seriously never knew such people even existed.
Yes mike, there are so many references to Christ pre-existing, that it is a surprise that one would conclude that he did not exist before being found in the flesh. Rejection of the Trinity is only useful if one is pursuing the truth about who God is. But rejection for the sake of rejection leads men to not know to what extent they should reject a teaching. They take the whole package and argue the opposite. This is not wise. If I argued against everything that Catholics teach for example, then I would be arguing against the existence of God.
Also, what is the URL for tigger's site?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2014,11:38) I want to know why those SAME EXACT REASONS cannot by applied in John 1:1 and 1:14.
Mike……..Simple, It's one thing to say, Jesus speaks GOD the FATHERS Word to us, and it's quite different to say He “IS” those WORDS, so you can Get it to say Jesus is (A) GOD . Now there you have it, clear as can be said. Jesus is NO GOD of “ANY, TO any “true Believer”, He has a God the same God we have. He is our lord and Brother, but most of all our Brother who is the head of the house hold of our Father, who is the “ONLY TRUE GOD.Making Jesus your God is breaking of the First commandment, it is a sin and an iniquity for any true believer to preach such a thing. The apostle Paul said that iniquity was already present even in his day (Gnostic's teachings) it was trying to make Jesus (A) GOD, who “preexisted” and came to earth from the Gods, Just as you and others are doing.
It is a cleaver Scheme by SATAN himself, made up to drive a wedge between Jesus and the rest of HUMANITY. It is a DOCTRINE OF SEPARATION that is at work in the children of disobedience. Jesus never professed to be a GOD of any kind, but he did profess he was a SON of MAN 80 times, To preach differently is ANTICHRIST why because it goes against the anointing Spirit of God in man as the creative process of perfection in mankind. IMO
peace and love to you and your………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2014,11:57) If God did just create a savior on the spot, then Jesus didn't really “sacrifice” anything at all. Instead, he won the greatest lottery of all time.
Mike…….”If God created a savior “ON THE SPOT”? are you kidding, Jesus was Prophesied to come into existence right from the beginning of creation, there are hundreds of Prophesies about him thought out all the Old Testament . Jesus is the capstone of God human creation, he represents God's finished works. Man i don't get, where you can say if he was born a human being and can into existence at that time , that is “ON THE SPOT” at all, God's the FATHERS whole GOAL of HIS Creation of Man was for the very purpose brought about in the MAN Jesus. And to say it would be “easy” to go through what he did if that were the case is asinine , it would be a whole lot easier to go through what he went through if he had all ready experienced a MORPHING Process in the past and If he had all those Billions of years seeing death and recreation and a creative process at work. Man you got your wires completely backwards on this Mike.Jesus lived a perfect human life and did not have to die at all for anyone, if he chose not to, he could have simply lived forever the way he was, because the wages of sin is death, but he did not sin, so he did not have to die at all.
Now if you could have lived forever and not had to died, a horrible and torturous death , would that be easy to you even if you know what the outcome would be. Jesus did not sweat as drops of Blood for nothing, something that only a man could do , if He was not under sever stress, and why ask God to take that cup of death from him then. If he had all those Past “preexistence” knowledge of a past life and understood how a person can be dead and still come back to life again, it would be a cake walk for a past experienced person to do. IMO
God was working through “THE MAN” Jesus the Christ, showing us all what his Finnish works he had in mind for us all. Jesus is the FIRST BORN HUMAN BEING to achieve that GOAL. And GOD the FATHER GETS “ALL” the GLORY, for His creative Work “IN” Jesus. That is why all thing are summed up in Christ Jesus both in Heave and in the earth He is the head because he was the First to attain that GOD intended GOAL for us all.
Mike you and T8 and others have Pushed Jesus away from yourselves by Making HIM Different then you are. You preach a DOCTRINE OF SEPARATION brought into existence by none other then Satan Himself, And you will reap it effect by being separated from Jesus and God the Father unless you repent. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 08 2014,10:27) Even John Locke and Isaac Newton appear to have maintained belief in the pre-existence of Christ despite their rejection of the Trinity. I concur with them on this as do many others.
T8……Would like to see where Issac Newton and John Locke agrees with the preexistence of Jesus. Please post where you ever read that at.Peace and lvoe to you and yours…………………….gene
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 08 2014,05:05) Yes mike, there are so many references to Christ pre-existing, that it is a surprise that one would conclude that he did not exist before being found in the flesh. Rejection of the Trinity is only useful if one is pursuing the truth about who God is. But rejection for the sake of rejection leads men to not know to what extent they should reject a teaching. They take the whole package and argue the opposite. This is not wise. If I argued against everything that Catholics teach for example, then I would be arguing against the existence of God. Also, what is the URL for tigger's site?
Good stuff……. especially the last line about the Catholics!Gene OFTEN lists us “Trinitarians and Pre-existers” as members of the same group – as if we must believe in a triune God to believe Christ pre-existed his fleshly state.
I hope Gene reads that last line of your post a few times and lets it sink in.
Here is tigger's blog site. The page it's opened to is a funny and educational bit that I know you'll like. tigger actually scripturally PROVED a Quadrinity God – with King David as one of the four members.
Enjoy!
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