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Quote (t8 @ Dec. 07 2013,19:32) This video is about a subject we all agree with. But it also talks much about the origins of the son too. Hence why I have added this here.
I understand that this is a restricted topic, but if I may, I would just like to make a couple of comments relative to this video, if I may.The author states that we should not add or take away from God's Word, but then states that the companion that was with God in the beginning when he made the statement “let us make man in our image” was Jesus, and states this because of John 1, but John 1 states the Word was with God in the beginning, it does not state that “the Son” was with God in the beginning, nor does it state that Jesus was that companion that was with God when he made that statement. In fact, God does not tell us to whom He was speaking.
The author also states that the Holy Spirit and the spirit of Christ is used interchangeably, but this is not so. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God,(there is scripture for this) and spirit of Christ is that spirit that was formed within the Lord through his obedience to the Word of God. (There is no scripture which states that the Holy Spirit and the spirit of Christ is interchangeable)
Quote 2 John Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. Quote
Jhn 6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
The word “Christ” means “the anointed one”. His spirit would then be the life that he lives in obedience to the Word of God.(Based on the scripture posted above)
As he states in John 6:63 above it is through these same words are spirit and life to his disciples.
And the he states this:
Jhn 17:19
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Jhn 17:20
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jhn 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:22
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jhn 17:23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Dec. 10 2013,16:31) I understand that this is a restricted topic………..
Don't worry about it, Marty. This thread is now open to all, since JB2U seems to have disappeared for good.Quote (942767 @ Dec. 10 2013,16:31) The author states that we should not add or take away from God's Word, but then states that the companion that was with God in the beginning when he made the statement “let us make man in our image” was Jesus, and states this because of John 1, but John 1 states the Word was with God in the beginning, it does not state that “the Son” was with God in the beginning, nor does it state that Jesus was that companion that was with God when he made that statement.
Marty, there are many things we understand from the gist of the scriptures – even though they are not explicitly laid out for us word for word. For example, there's really not any scripture that says God is from eternity – yet we REASON that He must be.And I don't know off hand of a scripture that says God is “uncreated” – yet we REASON that He is.
There are probably THOUSANDS of things just like this, that we eagerly claim without reservation, but that aren't explicitly said, word for word, in any scripture.
So let's reason about the claim in the video that you are disagreeing with:
1. God did say, “Let US make man in OUR image”. So God was apparently talking to someone who already shared His image, like mankind was about to.
And we know from scripture that Jesus is the “spitting image” of his Father and God. So it's not that big of a jump to think, “Hmmmm……… Perhaps it was Jesus to whom God was talking in Genesis 1:26.
(Personally, I believe God was talking to His entire heavenly counsel of spirit sons, of which Jesus was surely a member at that time, since he was the firstborn of all those spirit sons.)
2. John 1:1 does say the Word was with God in the beginning. And we know from Revelation that Jesus is called the Word by the same author, right? So it's not to far of a leap to believe that the person John called “the Word” in Revelation is the person he also called “the Word” in his gospel. (The same author, John, also calls Jesus “the Word” in John 1:1-2)
3. Many different scriptures tell us that all things came from God, and through His firstborn Son Jesus Christ. Some of those scriptures don't even stop at “all things”, but go on to explicitly clarify for us that they are talking about “all things, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities”. And since we are told that “all things” came FROM God, and THROUGH Jesus, what SCRIPTURAL reason would we have to just assume that the “all things” that came FROM the Father aren't the same exact “all things” that came THROUGH Jesus? None. In fact, it should be obvious to anyone without a personal bias that in 1 Cor 8:6, the “all things” that came THROUGH Jesus are the same exact “all things” that came FROM God.
Now, if Jesus was left out of that verse, and it only said, “All things came from God”, would you understand that to mean literally ALL things? Of course you would. But since you know that the same exact “all things” that came from God also came through Jesus, you immediately start twisting the scripture, and coming up with your own interpretations of how Paul must have been talking about all “NEW” things……… and not literally ALL things like he wrote.
But see, I don't do that. I can easily accept that the “all things” that came from God are the same exact “all things” that came through Jesus. And those “all things” would include the heavens, the earth, the angels, the humans, the animals, the stars, the planets, etc, etc, etc. I can accept this because I DON'T have a personal bias to protect. You can't accept because you DO have a personal bias to protect. See the difference between us, Marty?
Anyway, back to the point: We know that Jesus IS called “the Word”, and we know that “the Word” WAS with God in the beginning.
We know that God created all things through the Word, and we know that God created all things through Jesus.
We know that Jesus had glory with God before the world began.
We know that Jesus was the first of God's works, and the beginning of the creation by God.
We know that Jesus' origins are from ancient times.
And finally, we know that Jesus is the exact representation of his God, meaning that Jesus was most likely also created in God's image.
Therefore, it seems very possible that Jesus was at least one of the persons to whom God said, “Let us make man in our image”.
Hi Mike:
The point is that you cannot say that God was speaking to Jesus when He said “let us make man in our image” because God does not tell us to whom he was speaking. You might say that “I believe that it was Jesus”, and I say that I believe that it was the angels because of Job 38 and because Jesus is a man, and it was man that was being created, and therefore, he was speaking to a different entity, the angels, but I cannot say that this is a fact. God does not tell us to whom he was speaking.
And no, there is no scripture that states that “Jesus is the Word of God”. He stated “that he is the bread of life that came down from heaven”, but makes it clear that it was God speaking to humanity through him. There is scripture that states “his name is called The Word of God” and there are scriptures that state that his name is called “wonderful, counselor, prince of peace, mighty God, the everlasting Father”, but these are all said of him relative to his character that was manifested through his life of obedience to God's Word. He said that when we have seen him, we have seen the Father, and the scripture states that “he is the express image of God's person.
And also if you say that John 1 states that “the Word is Jesus”, the you would have “In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. And so, “Jesus was God”, but now he is the Son of God? He said himself that he is not God. Or you would have “In the beginning was the Son of God and the Son of God was with God, and the Son of God was God”, and so “the Son of God was God” but now he is not God, but he is still the Son of God?
This is total confusion, and it is because you are adding to what God stated. He stated that in the beginning was the Word, Greek “Logos” = “the saying of God” and embody an idea or a plan that God when he begin to create the worlds, and yes, the Word pertains to Jesus because it is in him and through him that God and by him that God's plan for this world and for humanity is fulfilled.
And so, John 1 communicates to us that God had a plan for this world and for humanity when he begin to create the worlds, and it is through this plan, “by His Word” that we see “His character made manifest to us.
And yes, I believe that the following scripture states that God is from eternity:
Quote
Deu 33:27The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.
1Ti 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen
Quote
Isa 57:15For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Love in Christ,
MartyMike……The Key is the word “THROUGH” which also equally can mean for the sake of, meaning God made all thing for the sake of mankind, and Jesus is the Firstfruits or first born human from mankind to fullfill what God has created everything for. It is for this reason God made mankind to come to the full measure of the stature of Christ and be a Heir of all thing Just as he was and is. Are we not called “JOINT Heirs” of the anointed (Christ) Jesus.
Another point is how do you know if the LORD “OUR” God wasn't addressing the Seven Spirit (distinct intellects) of GOD, which are the lamps of fire that are before His throne. Those seven spirits give, Yahweh our God his council and they are described as the eyes of God. I would far more think that is who God was talking to, then Jesus, Why, because Jesus was not even born yet, you can produce not one scripture to prove he was, nor not a single scripture showing any activity of his before his berth on this earth. He was only prophesied to come as the Messiah (anointed one)to come, by the prophets who said he would comes from the Israelite nation, according to Moses and others, even Paul said he came from the “LOIN” of King David.
You as many Trinitarians and Preexistence's are simply forcing the text to say what in fact they are not saying, and you need to remember nearly all bibles we have were translated by Biases Trinitarin scholars, who when translating, already had their doctrinal convictions, so naturally they would tweak the text to favor their views.
Mike you admit there are “MANY” things you reason to be true, but if you present things as fact, when they are not, then to me that is called forcing the text and when you do that, you may be denying many other texts, that show it differently, as the berth of Jesus for instance, as him being “morphed”, from another existence to a flesh and blood one, which would have given him and advantage over human kind, which would lesson his human sacrifice.
How you may ask, by giving him a preexistence existence status for one thing, and many other advantages like, if he were there and God created every thing through him, then he could easily face the crucifixion with all the past Knowledge he had, having been Morphed before, it would not be hard at all to face his death in his human condition., it would be a cake walk for him, if that were true seeing he already experienced death from one state to another before.
But if he were a Pure Human Being without any knowledge of any “morphing” process ever taking place, and any past understanding of it, and that is all he had was his human body and human mind that was his only his life he ever had, as far as he knew. and that he truly was sacrificing all he had of life's existence forever, then that would be a true “eternal ” sacrifice to me. That is exactly what he gave Mike His All< his "totality". That is exactly why he sweat like drops of blood, that is why He fell down three time and ask God to remove this cup from him, that is why he cry out to God ' HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME That is not the words of a preexisted being, that already knew what it is like to be “morphed” already once, if you ask me.
Jesus is called the second Adam, not a preexisted being, morphed into a human being, as you also “Assume”. No scripture even hints at that without being tweaked by words that can be translated many different ways, scripture say it was by man sin entered into the world and it was by a “MAN” Jesus, it was atoned for, not by another being disguised as a human being walking around on this earth for a short period of time. Do you really think God would fool us and trick us to think Jesus was a True Man, when in fact he was a preexistent being, who he “morphed” into a human, would that not be deceptive on God part if that were true?
Not even to mention that fact that Man is the crown Jewell of God creation that he planed all along to give us great honor and glory with the man Jesus, the Christ, our lord. Man is not a substandard species as many believe, remember where it says , what is Man (mankind) that you visit him, “YOU” have made Him (mankind), a little lower then the angels , you have “CROWNED” him with “GLORY” and “HONOR” and have put “ALL” things under “HIS” feet, and in that He (God) has said “ALL THINGS” are under his (mankind's) feet, there is “NOTHING” that is not under His (mankind's) feet. But we do not “YET” see all thing under His (mankind's) feet , but what do we see, we see Jesus (a man) Now crowned with that Glory and Honor and all thing are under his feet, all power in heaven and earth. this is the fate of “ALL” mankind not some body less Spirits (intellects) floating around in endless space,. God lives vicariously in and though his physical creation. Or don't you believe where it say God in all and through all That is brought about by the Spirits of God which imparts to us his “INTELLECTS” . IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene
Quote (942767 @ Dec. 11 2013,09:07) And also if you say that John 1 states that “the Word is Jesus”, the you would have “In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.
No Marty. The correct translation of John 1:1 is, “and the Word was with THE GOD, and the Word was A god.”See? All of that “confusion” you've mustered up is irrelevant, since Psalm 82 also speaks about THE GOD assembling with other gods.
And as you yourself just pointed out, Jesus is called “mighty god”, right?
See? No mystery at all.
Jesus IS called a god in scripture, which usually means he IS the thing he is called.
He is also named “the Word” in scripture, which usually means he IS the thing he is named.
And what about all the other things I posted? What about 1 Cor 8:6, for example? Do you agree that the “all things” that came THROUGH Jesus are the same exact “all things” that came FROM God?
If not, why not? And if so, is there any scriptural reason to assume that the “all things” that came from God do NOT include the heavens, the earth, the angels, the humans, and the animals?
At any rate, I tried to show you how embarrassingly EASY it is for someone to assume Jesus was one of the spirit sons of God mentioned in Genesis 1:26. After all, if God was indeed speaking to His spirit sons, there is no reason to assume the firstborn of them all wouldn't also be there, right?
Quote (942767 @ Dec. 11 2013,09:07) And yes, I believe that the following scripture states that God is from eternity: Quote
Deu 33:27The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.
1Ti 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen
Isa 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
The Hebrew word in Deuteronomy 33:27 is only translated in the KJV as “eternal” that one time. It is, however, translated as “ancient” 6 times.The word means “from days of old”, “from ancient times”.
Besides, the phrase “eternal God” doesn't necessarily say God is FROM eternity anyway. Jesus is now eternal, right? Does that mean he is FROM eternity?
In 1 Timothy 1:17, the Greek word is “aion”, which means the same thing our word “eons” means. It is literally translated as “king of the ages”.
And Isaiah 57:15 is literally translated as “the one who dwells perpetually”. Again, the fact that God WILL LIVE forever doesn't say anything about Him being FROM eternity.
I thought for sure I'd see Psalm 90:2.
Anyway, are you beginning to believe that there isn't actually a scripture that says God is “uncreated” or “from eternity”? Yet we REASON that both of those things are true anyway, don't we?
Hi Mike:
And so, according to you, the Word = Jesus was with God and Jesus was “a god” (past tense), but now, according to the scriptures “he is the Christ, the Son of the Living God”?
And no, the scripture does not state that “he is the Word”. It states:
Quote
Rev 19:13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
And no, I did not say that “he was a mighty god” because that is not what the scripture states. It states:
Quote
Isa 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
You know that he is not “the everlasting Father”, Mike, don't you? The scriptures state that “he is the express image of God's person”, and it is though his character that he makes these qualities of God manifest to us by his life of obedience to God's Word.
Isa 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
As far as God being from eternity and being uncreated, His name signifies that this is so.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Mike:
One more thing, you make the following statement which includes a question:
Quote And what about all the other things I posted? What about 1 Cor 8:6, for example? Do you agree that the “all things” that came THROUGH Jesus are the same exact “all things” that came FROM God? If not, why not? And if so, is there any scriptural reason to assume that the “all things” that came from God do NOT include the heavens, the earth, the angels, the humans, and the animals?
And my answer to this is No, because without God there is no Jesus, and so, you can make the statement “all things came through Jesus”, but “he is not the creator”.
Quote
1Cr 8:6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty……….You have it right brother. Mike refuses to accept our points , he just ignores them as if they were told him. All trinitarians and Preexistence completely miss Jesus' 100% human existence, they preach a “FALSE DOCTRINE of SEPARATION There purpose is to make Jesus different from his brothers and sisters, to separate his human identity with us, because they view humanity as a sub-species of God's creation instead of humanity being the Crown Jewel of God creation, as Hebrews clearly brings this out. Mankind is not a sub-species, but it is God purpose and desire that we attain to the full measure and stature of Christ Jesus, and become heirs of all thing Just as Jesus is He is called the firstborn of MANY to be born into the kingdom of God from humanity.
Anyway I am glad there is some like you and Kerwin, JB2U, Jodi, and a few others that understand this.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (942767 @ Dec. 13 2013,09:11) Hi Mike: And so, according to you, the Word = Jesus was with God and Jesus was “a god” (past tense), but now, according to the scriptures “he is the Christ, the Son of the Living God”?
Jesus was a god back then, and Jesus remains a god – even as he is still the Son of God, the Word of God, and the Christ of God.A god is merely a powerful spirit being, Marty. And Jesus, being the second MOST powerful being in existence, surely fits that title.
Quote (942767 @ Dec. 13 2013,09:11) And no, the scripture does not state that “he is the Word……….. And no, I did not say that “he was a mighty god” because that is not what the scripture states.
Those are just word games you have to play to keep your flawed man-made doctrine afloat.If it said, “He is called Abraham”, or “His name will be called Abraham” – you wouldn't go around arguing that he wasn't REALLY Abraham, would you? Of course not. But because you want to avoid the scriptural FACT that Jesus actually IS the Word (spokesman) of God, and actually IS a god – you have to play these word games.
Whatever helps you sleep, Marty.
Quote (942767 @ Dec. 13 2013,09:11) As far as God being from eternity and being uncreated, His name signifies that this is so.
What name is that? And which part of that name says, “I have existed from eternity”?Quote (942767 @ Dec. 13 2013,09:25) Hi Mike: One more thing, you make the following statement which includes a question:
Quote And what about all the other things I posted? What about 1 Cor 8:6, for example? Do you agree that the “all things” that came THROUGH Jesus are the same exact “all things” that came FROM God? If not, why not? And if so, is there any scriptural reason to assume that the “all things” that came from God do NOT include the heavens, the earth, the angels, the humans, and the animals?
And my answer to this is No, because without God there is no Jesus, and so, you can make the statement “all things came through Jesus”, but “he is not the creator”.
Quote
1Cr 8:6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Love in Christ,
Marty
What about the part I made red, Marty?Do you believe that ALL things came from God, and through Jesus? If not, then why not? Because at least four different scriptures say they did.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 16 2013,02:26) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 13 2013,09:25) Hi Mike: One more thing, you make the following statement which includes a question:
Quote And what about all the other things I posted? What about 1 Cor 8:6, for example? Do you agree that the “all things” that came THROUGH Jesus are the same exact “all things” that came FROM God? If not, why not? And if so, is there any scriptural reason to assume that the “all things” that came from God do NOT include the heavens, the earth, the angels, the humans, and the animals?
And my answer to this is No, because without God there is no Jesus, and so, you can make the statement “all things came through Jesus”, but “he is not the creator”.
Quote
1Cr 8:6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Love in Christ,
Marty
What about the part I made red, Marty?Do you believe that ALL things came from God, and through Jesus? If not, then why not? Because at least four different scriptures say they did.
Hi Mike:Yes, but it depends how you define the word “through”
“all things were made by God by him and for him”. He is the foundation on which God's plan for this world was laid and he is God's heir and we are joint heirs with him.Quote Eph 2:20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Quote
Col 1:12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Tools specific to Col 1:13
Col 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Tools specific to Col 1:14
Col 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Tools specific to Col 1:15
Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Tools specific to Col 1:16
Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Tools specific to Col 1:17
Col 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Tools specific to Col 1:18
Col 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Quote Total: 647 Definition:
1.through A.of place a.with
b.inB.of time a.throughout
b.duringC.of means a.by
b.by the means of2.through A.the ground or reason by which something is or is not done a.by reason of
b.on account of
c.because of for this reason
d.therefore
e.on this accountTDNT – Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
TWOT – Theological Word Book of the Old TestamentTry the definition #2 above for the word “through” and you will have the understanding of the scriptures that state that all things were made through him. He is not the creator.
Love in Christ,
MartyOkay. Let's use your definition #2 for a second – just for argument's sake.
In what way do you suppose the DINOSAURS were made for Jesus – since you believe Jesus never existed to see or enjoy them?
Oh, and how does definition #2 work in Colossians 1:16, where it is said that all things were made THROUGH him AND FOR him?
Should we change it to “FOR him and FOR him”?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 16 2013,02:26) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 13 2013,09:25) Hi Mike: One more thing, you make the following statement which includes a question:
Quote And what about all the other things I posted? What about 1 Cor 8:6, for example? Do you agree that the “all things” that came THROUGH Jesus are the same exact “all things” that came FROM God? If not, why not? And if so, is there any scriptural reason to assume that the “all things” that came from God do NOT include the heavens, the earth, the angels, the humans, and the animals?
And my answer to this is No, because without God there is no Jesus, and so, you can make the statement “all things came through Jesus”, but “he is not the creator”.
Quote
1Cr 8:6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Love in Christ,
Marty
What about the part I made red, Marty?Do you believe that ALL things came from God, and through Jesus? If not, then why not? Because at least four different scriptures say they did.
Mike……..Here is my take on this scripture , i will add some words to clarify it's meaning to me, OK.But to us (true believers) there is but “ONE” God, the Father, of (from) whom are “ALL” things, and we in him, and one lord, Jesus Christ , By or through are all things (fulfilled in the “PLAN” and “WILL” of GOD ), and we (come to that same position) “BY” Him, ( it is by Jesus' sacrifice, that we also attain that “PLANNED WILL” and “PURPOSE” of God).
So everything in the planned purpose and will of God, is completed in the man, Jesus Christ our lord, but he is not our God Mike. God has summed up all His purpose for mankind, in and through “the man” Jesus Christ. The first from Mankind to reach that intended purpose. So the purpose of God is all summed up in Jesus Christ.
Mike, i realize i have paraphrased that scripture, but it is the way i and i believe Marty and others see it.
peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Okay Gene. Thanks for letting me know how you understand it.
But don't you worry that your understanding could be wrong, since it requires you to add your own words into the scripture?
The way I see it, the same exact “all things” that came FROM God, came THROUGH Jesus.
And since I know that “ALL things”, including the heavens and the earth, came FROM God, that scripture is telling me that those same “ALL things” came THROUGH Jesus.
I also realize that Jesus is not “our God”. The one who we are to worship and serve is the God OF Jesus. He is not only OUR God, but also Jesus' God. Jesus worships him just like we do.
But knowing that Satan isn't “OUR God” doesn't prohibit him from BEING a god. Likewise, knowing that Jesus isn't “OUR God” doesn't prohibit him from being a god.
Jehovah is only the MOST HIGH God because there exist other gods who are not as high as Him. He is only the God OF gods because there exist gods that He is the God OF.
All that I've said in this post is EXACTLY correct, according to the scriptures themselves, Gene.
Mike……….Everything concerning the word “GOD” has to be understood before that term can be used, would you agree with that?
If you would do a real study on the “ORIGINAL” Term used by the Hebrews, you would see the term can only be applied in a relative sense. Another words like this, my God, there God, the God of this or the God of that, the God of the Hebrews, the God of Jesus, My God and Your God, and etc. It does not mean a Person but a relationship to a Person or thing.
Jesus used this a quote from the old testament, let's look at it very carefully. Hear O Israel the LORD “OUR GOD” is ONE LORD. Now consider how it is written, it does not say the GOD OUR GOD is ONE GOD. Now does it?. But the Person Mentioned there is the LORD (YAHWEH) he is OUR GOD. The person YAHWEH is OUR GOD, so the relationship with that person (THE LORD) to us is as a GOD. Are you still following Me?
Now let continue with the definition of a GOD in order to define what that GOD relationship is. I have considered that and found it is in this way. The Original Hebrew word for a GOD consisted of TWO THINGS, ONE is POWER, represented by a Pictorial symbol of an OX, So Power certainly is “PART” of the Meaning of the word GOD, and most just leave it there, but that is not the complete meaning of that word, Because it was shown with a Leaning Sheppard's Staff Symbol next to the OX Head Symbol. The leaning Sheppard's Staff , represents what a person trusts in and leans on for support.
You simply can not have the word God used without “BOTH” POINTS being applied to the Object being called a GOD, Do you see it is the “RELATIONSHIP” to a Person or thing, That makes a GOD. The Word GOD is not a Person, it can be directed toward a Person if that is the relationship you have with that person or thing.
Another point Mike is there is no such thing as a little god or a BIG GOD, in scripture that was added later by translator seeing all scripture were originally written in upper case lettering. WE are told there is “ONLY” “ONE” “TRUE” GOD, not my words but Jesus' words Mike, so common sense would tell us, that if there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, then all others should be “FALSE” GOD'S , to us (true believers) that is.
But as far as, can there be others GOD to a Person, yes there can be if they meet the relational meaning of the Word GOD, that can apply to anything in life, People, Money, family, cars, relatives, you name it, and it can be a God to a person, but we (true believers), are told to not have any other GOD but LORD who is our ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD, to us there are “NO” Other GOD of any KIND, and He is indeed the GOD of all those man created God's, But to Us (true believers), all those Gods created by the minds of People are false God to “US” that is. They are not “TRUE” GOD'S —- “TO US” that is, they are no Gods at all , even if they are the Gods of those people who trust in them and lean on them for there support and power. So to us God is indeed the GOD of all those False God “TO US” that is.
Again i restate, the Word God is not a Person or thing, it is a “RELATIONSHIP” to a Person or Thing. . IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2013,12:06) But knowing that Satan isn't “OUR God” doesn't prohibit him from BEING a god. Likewise, knowing that Jesus isn't “OUR God” doesn't prohibit him from being a god.
He might be a God to this world but he certainly is not a God to US (true believers) because we only have “ONE” God all others are “FALSE” God's (TO US). Satan is no God at all to Us, why because we do not trust in him and lean on his power for any support, he simply does not meet the criteria for a God to US (true believers). Satan himself believes there is ONLY ONE GOD, it is even written in scripture.you believe that there is only “ONE” God, you do well, even the devil believe that. Satan full well knows he is no God of any kind to a true believer that is. IMO
Gene,
I've read your posts. Let's start small:
5.2 Kings 1:6
This is what the Lord says: Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are sending messengers to consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron?In this verse, Jehovah Himself calls Satan “the god of Ekron”. And since you are right, that there was no distinction between upper and lower case letters in the original, Jehovah really called Satan, “THE GOD OF EKRON”.
Now, which part of “power” and “trust” was Jehovah attributing to Satan, since the word was simply “GOD”?
Was Jehovah saying that Satan was “powerful”, and “trustworthy”, since He called him a “GOD”?
Mike……… Actually the word Baal-Zebub, is Not the word for “Ha-Satan” it's the God of the “FLIES a Chaldean God as I recall, But let say for argument sake you are right it make no difference, that GOD, of those people was “THEIR” GOD, why because it meet the requirements for a GOD, Those people Trusted and leaned on it power, so to “THEM” he or it was a GOD, not a “little god but a BIG GOD To THEM why because it meet the relationship requirements to be a GOD, anything came be a GOD to a Person if it meets the requirements of a GOD , So yes Baal-Zebub was indeed a God to the Ekron's , but was he a God to any one else in the world NO Just to those who Trusted and Believed and worshiped Him or It.
Mike because OUR GOD said the GOD of the Ekron's, meant he was “THEIR” GOD, he or it's God status, had to do with the people making it or him a God, by trusting and worshiping it or him, and indeed it was “THEIR” GOD, but was it a GOD to OUR GOD or anyone else, “NO” it wasn't, Just to those who believed in it . You don't seen to get the point a GOD can be “ANYTHING”, if it MEETS THE REQUIREMENTS of THE MEANING of THE WORD GOD, POWER and WHAT YOU TRUST LEAN ON FOR SUPPORT.
But was He or it supposed to be a GOD to Israel, NO, they had their Own GOD “YAHWEH”, and He did not want Israel or US (true believers) to recognize those other man made Gods as TRUE GOD'S. This can be said about Buda, The God of China, or any other God created by the mind of men as far as that goes.
So a God can be any thing, if it meet the “relational requirements to a person, being what you completely trust in and lean on for support and power then it is “YOUR” GOD. But it may be nothing to the person next to you, because they may not have any trust in it at all in it.
Again the WORD is the issue here , and the word GOD applies only to who you trust and lean on for support and Power It can be any thing it is up to the individual, but unto us true Believers , we have “ONLY” “ONE” TRUE GOD we recon No other God to exist but ONE for us that is. The same applies for our lord Jesus the Christ he believes the same way as we do. He full well knows he is no GOD of any kind to us or His God which is OUR God also. IMO
That is why i wanted you and others to read, 2 Ths 2 with that in mind and you can easily see that making Jesus, a God, was the “LIE” Paul talking about.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
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