Proclaimer can&#8217;t win the debates

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 26 2011,06:31)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2011,11:14)

I do not see God confirming what is being taught with miracles and signs and wonders following.

Marty

Can you point me to any anti Jesus is God people that are saving people and feeding the poor and healing the sick or where there are signs and wonders following.

If the Trinity Doctrine is such a damnable doctrine then why is it that it is mostly the Trinitarians whom God is working through?

Are the signs and wonders working through you, if so why don't you tell us about it and then explain to us it is because you don't believe in the “Trinity”?

Hi Keith:

The “Trinity doctrine” is a misunderstanding of scripture, and is the cause of many Jews and Muslims not being open to hear the gospel message.

God has shown me that He intends to use me as an overseer in the church. He said that He would put me in this postion, and I will wait for Him to do what He said. In a recent dream, He has shown me who He will use to lay hands on me and ordain me in this position, and He has spoken to me recently telling me that what He has promised me is near.

In that position of authority, He will confirm what I am teaching.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 25, 2011 at 10:13 pm#237420

Kangaroo Jack Jr.

Participant

Marty said:

Quote

“Trinity doctrine” is a misunderstanding of scripture, and is the cause of many Jews and Muslims not being open to hear the gospel message.

Poppycock! Paul said that their minds are blinded to the GLORY OF CHRIST.

February 25, 2011 at 10:18 pm#237421

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2011,15:54)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 26 2011,06:31)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2011,11:14)

I do not see God confirming what is being taught with miracles and signs and wonders following.

Marty

Can you point me to any anti Jesus is God people that are saving people and feeding the poor and healing the sick or where there are signs and wonders following.

If the Trinity Doctrine is such a damnable doctrine then why is it that it is mostly the Trinitarians whom God is working through?

Are the signs and wonders working through you, if so why don't you tell us about it and then explain to us it is because you don't believe in the “Trinity”?

Hi Keith:

The “Trinity doctrine” is a misunderstanding of scripture, and is the cause of many Jews and Muslims not being open to hear the gospel message.

In that position of authority, He will confirm what I am teaching.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

So the Lord has shown you who is going to lay hands on you and ordain you?

Is he a member of the Church?

If he is then you are telling me that God is going to use a heretic to ordain you isn't that right?

February 25, 2011 at 10:20 pm#237422

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,16:13)

Marty said:

Quote

“Trinity doctrine” is a misunderstanding of scripture, and is the cause of many Jews and Muslims not being open to hear the gospel message.

Poppycock! Paul said that their minds are blinded to the GLORY OF CHRIST.

Jack

He is in denial because the majority of the Jews that get saved are Messianic Jews that were saved through Trinitarians and as far as I know most Messianic Jewish ministries are Trinitarian.

February 26, 2011 at 4:56 am#237453

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 24 2011,20:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2011,11:25)

Jack,

I am not a JW, and have never been one. I truly enjoy the NWT, and believe it translates many scriptures better than most other translations…………..but my favorite so far is the NIV. So if you're going to call a particular translation “MY Bible”, then call the NIV that, okay? Not the NWT.

mike

Hi Mike,

The N.I.V. is loaded with translational 'errors'!
If you don't like the “AKJV Bible”, I suggest
you try reading the N.A.S. bible instead.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed,

The AKJV is also loaded with a lot of mistranslations……….many of which they've adjusted in the NKJV – for example, changing “child” to “servant” in the scriptures Jack and I are discussing.

The reason I don't like the KJV is because nobody even talks that way today. It frustrates me that so many here post scripture from it. Each time they do, I have to look up the scripture in a newer translation just so I can figure out what they're talking about.

By the way, I'm in Numbers right now in the NASB. It is the fourth translation I've read. And so far, the NIV is still my favorite.

peace and love,
mike

February 26, 2011 at 5:33 am#237457

Ed J

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2011,14:56)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 24 2011,20:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2011,11:25)

Jack,

mike

Hi Mike,

The N.I.V. is loaded with translational 'errors'!
If you don't like the “AKJV Bible”, I suggest
you try reading the N.A.S. bible instead.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed,

By the way, I'm in Numbers right now in the NASB. It is the fourth translation I've read. And so far, the NIV is still my favorite.

peace and love,
mike

Hi Mike,

The “AKJV Bible” has the least amount of errors!

The funny language adds accuracy to God's word, because
modern English has ONLY past, present and future tenses.
YHVH exists all: Old English has combined tenses, for example…

Holpen, meetest and saith.
Saith means: “is said and says”,
meetest means: “is met, meets, and will meet”,
and holpen means: “is helped and will help”. The original texts
have many instances modern vernacular lacks the clarity of single words
containing past, present, or future tenses combined.

In modern English, the word “you” lacks exactness of meaning and is rarely used in the AKJV Bible.
Modern usage of the word “you” could mean “an individual”, “a couple of people”, or
even “a large group of people”. 1611 lexicon is more precise with words
such as “Ye” used for a group and “Thou” for an individual. Also
words like thy, thee, and thine are among many such words
used in the AKJV Bible. Without understanding of the originally written texts,
the current reader wanting a modern word for word translation usually overlooks these “technicalities”.
These are among the MANY reasons the “AKJV Bible” IS THE MOST ACCURATE BIBLE ENGLISH-SPEAKING POSSESS!

Hope this helps you to understand why the “AKJV Bible” is the most popular bible on the planet!

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 26, 2011 at 5:44 am#237460

Blocked

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,03:04)

BUT JESUS IS CLEARLY CALLED BY THE NAME “THEOS” IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. YOU HAVE ADMITTED THAT JESUS IS CALLED GOD MIKE.

Yes Jack. And you have admitted that being called by the title “god” is NOT proof that anyone, including Jesus, actually IS God Almighty. I won't discuss this point anymore. Instead, I will continue to post these following words from Keith each time this subject is brought up:

Isn't that what Francis, D, and Jack and I have been saying………….

Everyone not just I are saying that just because Jesus is called God does not mean he is God.

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,03:04)

The NIV is Trinitarian and it is your “favorite” Bible?

Isn't that what I just said? I've actually said this many times before on this site. As I understand it, the 100+ scholars actually had to sign off on being a Trinitarian before they were even allowed on the project. Yet I LOVE this translation! Guess what Jack? These same 100+ Trinitarian scholars translate “pais” as “servant” 4 times in Acts in referrence to the exalted Christ.

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,03:04)

What! You use the word “servant” in reference to Jesus as proof that He is not God.

No, what I use as proof is the FACT that the exalted Jesus is STILL a SERVANT to the One he calls “MY God”.

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,03:04)

Jesus was a servant but was exallted to the status of “Son” which in Hebrew culture implied equality with the father. Hebrews 3 says that Moses was a “servant” in God's house and that Jesus is a “Son” in God's house. It says that Jesus receives “much more glory” than Moses which is the glory of the builder (God). Therefore, Jesus receives the glory God receives.

Wrong on all counts. Jack, I've got better things to do than discuss your lamebrain claims…………..like the claim that you and your dad are the same being.

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,03:04)

Okay make up your mind Mike. You have just said that your “favorite” Bible is the NIV which agrees with the NWT. Yet you invoke the KJV.

Jack, I use MANY Bibles and MANY sources now. Especially NETNotes, where I can clearly read the Hebrew and Greek words for myself, along with their possible definitions. That way, I can decide for myself which translation makes the most sense based on the context of the entire Bible. Remember our first debate? I was like JA, proudly spouting how all I needed was a Bible. You taught me to delve into the actual Greek and Hebrew, and to read up on the TWOT and Vine's and the LXX and Blue Letter and such. I owe you much. Unfortunately for you, you are Dr. Frankenstein, and I'm the monster you created in the process of teaching me these things. Thank you!

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,03:04)

The KJV is based in inferior manuscripts. The word “God” was added by some scribes. The Critical text which is based in the oldest manuscripts does NOT have the word “God” next to “despotes.” The NIV which you have now admitted is your favorite Bible does NOT have the word “God” next to “despotes.”

Yeah. I've just been through this same conversation with Keith, and I should have worded it the same way for you. I told Keith that we now know the word “God” was added in, because the oldest and best mss don't have it. But even so, if you eliminated the word “God” from the KJV, why can't it still be translated as the NWT translates it? Get it? Because of the word “God”, the KJV scholars put, “the only Lord [God]……..AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST”. But if you minus the word “God” from that, it is still grammatically possibly that it says, “the only Lord……………AND OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST”, right?

Anyway Jack, this comes down to two simple points – PLEASE address these points DIRECTLY.

1. Is it a COMPLETE GRAMMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY for 1:4 to say, “denying our only Despotes, AND our Lord Jesus Christ”?

2. Even if we used your preferred translation, does calling Jesus our “only master” mean he is God Almighty? If so, HOW? Remember he is also called our ONLY Lord, by contrast to our ONLY God, the Father. Also remember that even with Jesus as their “ONLY” master, the disciples taught their followers to respect and obey their EARTHLY MASTERS also. So does “ONLY” in this context really mean “ONLY”? Or is it like Paul said, “there are MANY lords and gods, but FOR US there is only one of each”. Because this was not teaching Jesus was the ONLY Lord, for Paul clearly said in the same sentence that there were MANY. Rather, it was teaching that for us, Jesus is the ONLY Lord that really matters. In other words, we must follow the teachings of THIS Lord over and above any teachings of any other lords or masters we might have.

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,03:04)

Back to Moses. In numbers 20:16 Moses include himself ammong the delivered. He said,

16 When we cried out to the LORD, He heard our voice and sent the Angel and brought us up out of Egypt; now here we are in Kadesh, a city on the edge of your border.
Note that Moses included himself among the delivered.

John 4:22 NIV
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Jesus here included himself among the worshippers of Jehovah.

mike

February 26, 2011 at 5:51 am#237461

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,08:58)

When is the last time you have led someone to Christ or given money to help the cause of Christ?

I will answer you via pm.

February 26, 2011 at 5:58 am#237462

Ed J

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,03:04)

Jesus was a servant but was exallted to the status of “Son” which in Hebrew culture implied equality with the father.

Hi Jack,

Jesus had the 'status' of “Son” when he was born! (See: Heb.1:6)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 26, 2011 at 6:49 am#237464

Blocked

Good one, Ed! He actually had it before anything else was created at all. When God begot Jesus, Jesus became not only the “firstborn of all creation” and “the beginning of the creation of God”, but also the very first “Son” of all time.

mike

February 26, 2011 at 6:57 am#237465

Ed J

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2011,16:49)

Good one, Ed!

He actually had it before anything else was created at all. When God begot Jesus, Jesus became not only the “firstborn of all creation” and “the beginning of the creation of God”, but also the very first “Son” of all time.

mike

Hi Mike,

'Your' missing “a few”,
as there are “Seven” total.

Jesus was the “Son of God” at…

1) His Pre-existence. (Job 38:7)
2) His Conception. (Luke 1:35)
3) His Birth (Mathew 1:18, 20)
4) His Baptism (John 1:33-34)
5) His Ministry (Mathew 14:33)
6) His Crucifixion. (Mark 15:39)
7) His Resurrection. (Rom.1:4)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 26, 2011 at 4:37 pm#237490

Blocked

Hi Ed,

First of all, I wasn't making a list of times Jesus was a Son, so to say I'm “missing a few” is not an accurate statement.

Secondly, Jesus became the Son of God when he was begotten. He then became the flesh version of the Son of God when born by Mary. He was then begotten again from the dead and once again became the Son of God.

I count three times, not seven.

mike

February 26, 2011 at 4:51 pm#237492

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,10:07)

Jack

Jesus laid down his life and had the power to take it again.

Jesus conquered death, he wasn't delivered from it, we were delivered from it because of him.

John 10:18 NIV
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

“Authority” is not the same as “power”, right? Scriptures confirm that it was the God OF Jesus who raised him from the dead. And notice above who gave the COMMAND to Jesus.

Also…………….

Romans 6:9 NIV
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

This shows that death at one point DID have “mastery” over Jesus. It was because Jesus' GOD raised him from the clutches of death that he poetically “conquered” it. He has yet to destroy it, but he will. Because his God has both willed it and given Jesus the power to do it – once God has placed it at his feet.

mike

February 26, 2011 at 5:28 pm#237493

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 26 2011,08:18)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2011,15:54)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 26 2011,06:31)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2011,11:14)

I do not see God confirming what is being taught with miracles and signs and wonders following.

Marty

Can you point me to any anti Jesus is God people that are saving people and feeding the poor and healing the sick or where there are signs and wonders following.

If the Trinity Doctrine is such a damnable doctrine then why is it that it is mostly the Trinitarians whom God is working through?

Are the signs and wonders working through you, if so why don't you tell us about it and then explain to us it is because you don't believe in the “Trinity”?

Hi Keith:

The “Trinity doctrine” is a misunderstanding of scripture, and is the cause of many Jews and Muslims not being open to hear the gospel message.

In that position of authority, He will confirm what I am teaching.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

So the Lord has shown you who is going to lay hands on you and ordain you?

Is he a member of the Church?

If he is then you are telling me that God is going to use a heretic to ordain you isn't that right?

Hi Keith:

He is a member of the Lord's church, and I am just telling you what the Lord has shown me.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 26, 2011 at 5:30 pm#237494

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 26 2011,08:13)

Marty said:

Quote

“Trinity doctrine” is a misunderstanding of scripture, and is the cause of many Jews and Muslims not being open to hear the gospel message.

Poppycock! Paul said that their minds are blinded to the GLORY OF CHRIST.

Hi Jack:

Paul may have been speaking about you when he made that statement.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 26, 2011 at 5:38 pm#237495

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2011,10:51)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,10:07)

Jack

Jesus laid down his life and had the power to take it again.

Jesus conquered death, he wasn't delivered from it, we were delivered from it because of him.

John 10:18 NIV
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

“Authority” is not the same as “power”, right? Scriptures confirm that it was the God OF Jesus who raised him from the dead. And notice above who gave the COMMAND to Jesus.

Also…………….

Romans 6:9 NIV
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

mike

Mike

All that scripture means is Jesus could not die again not that death could hold him.

If Jesus had the power to lay down his life and to take it up agian “iregardless as to whether the Father gave it to him” then that means that death never had any power over him.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus had no sin so it was not possible for death to hold him. Jesus gave up the Ghost, death didn't take him for he laid down his life and he had the power to take it again.

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, “WHO ABOLISHED DEATH, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 2 Tim 1:10

Jesus “ABOLISHED” death and rose again.

“Destroy this Temple and I will raise it again“

February 26, 2011 at 5:39 pm#237496

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 26 2011,11:28)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 26 2011,08:18)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2011,15:54)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 26 2011,06:31)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2011,11:14)

I do not see God confirming what is being taught with miracles and signs and wonders following.

Marty

Can you point me to any anti Jesus is God people that are saving people and feeding the poor and healing the sick or where there are signs and wonders following.

If the Trinity Doctrine is such a damnable doctrine then why is it that it is mostly the Trinitarians whom God is working through?

Are the signs and wonders working through you, if so why don't you tell us about it and then explain to us it is because you don't believe in the “Trinity”?

Hi Keith:

The “Trinity doctrine” is a misunderstanding of scripture, and is the cause of many Jews and Muslims not being open to hear the gospel message.

In that position of authority, He will confirm what I am teaching.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

So the Lord has shown you who is going to lay hands on you and ordain you?

Is he a member of the Church?

If he is then you are telling me that God is going to use a heretic to ordain you isn't that right?

Hi Keith:

He is a member of the Lord's church, and I am just telling you what the Lord has shown me.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Is that Church your Church? Is it a Trinitarian Church?

February 26, 2011 at 5:42 pm#237497

Blocked

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,10:14)

The book of Acts says that God exalted His servant Jesus. It does NOT say that Jesus remained servant after He was exalted.[/b]

Thank you Jack. I will now add this to my thread of things I don't need to discuss with you any further. You have admitted that the word IS properly translated as SERVANT.

I agree that Acts 3:26 and 4:27 speak of Jesus on the earth. But Acts 3:13 and 4:30 specifically speak of the raised and exalted Jesus as still a SERVANT.

Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.
When was Jesus “glorified”? Wasn't it after he was exalted to God's right hand? Now I understand that you read this to say that once God glorified His servant, he ceased to be a servant. But there are no words in this scripture to even imply that, let alone PROVE it.

Acts 4:30
Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

This one is more cut and dry. This passage shows how these disciples not only pray to God Himself, saying, “Sovereign Lord, you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them”, but it also shows that they offer their prayer TO God Himself, but “through the name of your holy servant Jesus”.

This prayer was made way after Jesus had been exalted and glorified, yet they STILL refer to him as “your holy SERVANT”.

Enough said?

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 25 2011,10:14)

PLEASE COMMENT ON THE CONTRAST BETWEEN MOSES AND JESUS IN HEBREWS CHAPTER THREE MIKE!

Okay Jack, if you really want to discuss Hebrews 3, I will. I've watched how JA easily tore your points apart when you discusssed it with him before. But if you want to do it, then start a debate thread. But I promise you that this will not become a trinitarian “free for all” like our “Plural God” debate became. We will discuss ONLY Heb 3 and scriptures that DIRECTLY relate to the words in it.

mike

February 26, 2011 at 5:47 pm#237499

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 27 2011,03:39)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 26 2011,11:28)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 26 2011,08:18)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2011,15:54)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 26 2011,06:31)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2011,11:14)

I do not see God confirming what is being taught with miracles and signs and wonders following.

Marty

Can you point me to any anti Jesus is God people that are saving people and feeding the poor and healing the sick or where there are signs and wonders following.

If the Trinity Doctrine is such a damnable doctrine then why is it that it is mostly the Trinitarians whom God is working through?

Are the signs and wonders working through you, if so why don't you tell us about it and then explain to us it is because you don't believe in the “Trinity”?

Hi Keith:

The “Trinity doctrine” is a misunderstanding of scripture, and is the cause of many Jews and Muslims not being open to hear the gospel message.

In that position of authority, He will confirm what I am teaching.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

So the Lord has shown you who is going to lay hands on you and ordain you?

Is he a member of the Church?

If he is then you are telling me that God is going to use a heretic to ordain you isn't that right?

Hi Keith:

He is a member of the Lord's church, and I am just telling you what the Lord has shown me.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Is that Church your Church? Is it a Trinitarian Church?

Hi Keith:

The Lord said: “Upon this rock, I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.”

I am a member of his church, and so, is the pastor who he has shown me will lay hands on me and ordain me for the position that he has shown me.

Jesus did not make any mention of a “Trinitarian church”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 26, 2011 at 6:41 pm#237500