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Jesus testifies that the one he calls God is the ONLY TRUE GOD. Do you believe it when Jesus calls “the father” The ONLY TRUE GOD? If you do believe what Jesus said wouldn’t that make Jesus and every other being anything else but God?
Secondly you mention Thomas calling Jesus “God” what you did not manage to notice was no one else responded that way at the time so wouldn’t be possible for Thomas to say that because what he witnessed was astonishing sort of like when the viper bit paul: Acts 28:6 The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead; but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.
Now you would easily agree that Paul was not/is not a god, am i right? now if it was a well known fact to his disciples that Jesus was “God” why would they then declare Acts 2:22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
Now we are not talking about a moment of surprise we are talking about an actual prepared statement in front of everyone and yet they make it ABSOLUTELY clear that this was a MAN.
Now as far a John 1:1 you seem to make the most common mistake of all which is to allow this chapter to coincide somehow with Genesis simply because it says “In the beginning” but what you misunderstand is John is talking about the beginning of his Gospel and we can know this because he says and the Word became Flesh, if this was “The beginning” in context to Genesis that Flesh would have been Adam but the fact is “In the beginning” of the Gospel Mary is told that she will be with child and God made this possible simply by command(without intercourse or help of any kind) so the Word did become Flesh at that time not at the beginning of time since at mans beginning the breath of God was breathed in him and not by command.
Jesus said the Father and I are one but he also said John 14:20 At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
That would make everyone God by your logic otherwise me and my Father are one is a statement of Unity not divinity
and Finally keep this in mind: Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.again if your logic holds true about a trinity it allows for the Trinity God to be blasphemed because this is a paradox, Jesus who you say is 1 part of the trinity declares he is allowed to be blasphemed but the Holy Spirit which is 1 part cannot be blasphemed
Hi davidl.
NO direct teaching but you have found what you assume are implications.
There is no trickery in God.
Yes the WORD WAS. Jesus was not yet conceived then.
When Thomas saw Jesus he saw his Lord and God in him. Jesus had explained this to him earlier and he understood.
Yes there is unity between the Father and the Son but they are not ONE AND THE SAME.
That same spiritual unity is offered to us by sharing in the ONE SPIRIT of God.
Jesus said he was the SON of God but natural men cannot hear his words.
DavidL,
Each person sees what they are taught in those verses as they use words whose meaning is based on context, sometimes that context is not available today.
Surely you must know that John declares the Word was God…?!
Trinitarians disagree on the correct interpretation of this passage. I agree with those that interpret it to mean that the word has the qualities of God but I disagree with them that the word has to be Christ. After the word becomes flesh Jesus has the qualities of the word and so has the qualities of God and even that does not mean he becomes God.
Thomas worships Jesus calling Him both Lord and God..?
The word god is not limited to meaning a deity in the original language as men of importance were called gods. Paul was called a god by certain Islanders and had no objection to it while in another case when he was called Hermes and Barnabas was called Zeus they both emphatically objected. So Thomas responding to Jesus’ instruction to have faith by telling him that he was his Lord and “God’s representative or viceregent” (biblestudytools.com, theos)
There are other interpretations that are equally valid and sound as logical reasoning only takes you so far.
Jesus declares He and the Father are ONE..?!
This one is clearly not support of the trinity as it is about unity. I consider this an illegitimate trinitarian argument because Jesus also asks God if believers can be one as he and the God are one in John 17:21. It is a case when those that teach Jesus is God are interpreting words one way when they are about Jesus and another way when they are about the believers. That is deceptive; though they are the first ones deceived as they such people sincerely see it as prove of their point even though it is clearly a flawed argument.
The meaning of these passage and not so clear nor are they meant to be. Jesus told us why his language is not clear so I see no reason to explain why they are not.
Jesus used human reasoning, so it is foolish to bash it because in doing so you bash his actions. Attaching logical reasoning is the devils way to prevent those who seek God from testing the truth of the many false teaching that are about.
Ungodly reasoning that is based on the principles of human nature is condemned. If you are speaking of that and not all logical reasoning then I misunderstood you. Jesus used godly reasoning that is based on the teachings of the Spirit, and those teachings are the Word of God.
Hi davidl,
The plan of God is for all to share in His Spirit.
It is a free offer but it does require obedience to the command.
All are under the power of the evil one and they must all repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ.
Then they can receive the promised unifying gift of the Holy Spirit.
If they walk in the Spirit they can become sons of God.
Hi davidl,
So we do not serve a man made monstrosity called a trinity
but we can come to the Father, clothed in the Son and share in eternal life in the One Spirit of God.
Gal 3.27,Gal 4.19
God made man in his image. Jesus is called the image of God. We are not the source. Jesus is not the source. Both are images of God. One made, the other begotten.
Further, an idol is the opposite. It is an image of God made by an image of God (man). All idols start of in the mind of man and not the Spirit of God. The Trinity Doctrine included. It creates a God from the mind and reasoning of man and abandons the teachings of scripture on who is the one true God.
Jesus said in John 17:3:
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Do not ignore the words of eternal life my friend.
“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.” – Ephesians 5:6
Are Jesus own words good enough for you. You oppose us for believing him.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
When will zealous Saul become zealous Paul?
We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
Hi davidl,
Certainly the rejection of the glorious human idol, the trinity, is frustrating to those who have cherished it.
For some reason, man finds it hard to give up idols and tradition.
They become very attached. However, being led by the Spirit is not a traditional thing. It is like the wind. You cannot predict it. Traditions are very predictable and mankind generally prefers that. Further, light has come into the world. But man overall runs from that light.
I think you guys get tripped up on the word ‘trinity,’ and all the doctrinal baggage it seems to contain for you – for me I use the word in the sense of three working together as one..similar to the way in which God views the union of a man and woman in marriage (two completely separate beings with two completely different roles) as one flesh.. or how the body, soul and spirit (three separate entities) make up one human being, and also again how in the last days, the Beast, the Antichrist and the false prophet will all work together under the one power of Satan to control the world (..a common tactic of the enemy is to imitate or counterfeit the things of God in order to make himself appear to be like God – thus, I believe, his un-holy, threefold alliance will be a direct counterfeit of the true Godhead spoken of in Scripture).
So, the true threefold alliance is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…these three working together as one God. While the word ‘trinity’ is not mentioned in Scripture (like the word ‘rapture’) yet this complete unity is seen right throughout the whole Bible, but is, of course, more clearly defined in the manifestation of Jesus Christ (Immanuel)…John 15:26 etc, that is, for those whose eyes are enlightened by the Holy Spirit through the new birth… at this point we should observe that the true identity and deity of Jesus was generally hidden from the world at the time of His earthly ministry, and only at the very early stages of dawning on humanity through the slow process of revelation to the disciples, the glory of which would later be spread through the message of the gospels into every corner of the globe – God became man and dwelt among us, giving His own precious life as a ransom for Adam’s fallen race – this is the glorious message that is turned into confusion when the trinity is denied, and the divine nature of the Son rejected.
Jesus testifies that the one he calls God is the ONLY TRUE GOD. Do you believe it when Jesus calls “the father” The ONLY TRUE GOD? If you do believe what Jesus said wouldn’t that make Jesus and every other being anything else but God?
To answer Bodhitharta… yes, I believe Jesus when He calls the Father the ONLY TRUE GOD – but when you look at this in the light of Christ’s life (rather than the context of theological debate), it doesn’t contradict His unity and oneness with the Father as you first suppose…
Remember His prayer in John 17 “And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world began.” What was that glory..? John declares that not only was He with God, but He was God…! complete unity and harmony with the only true God…! Philippians reveals His descent from divinity into humanity, “who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, <span class=”highl”>but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.” ..so the Son, as equal to God, became human – “..became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” …and, in this human form the Blessed Son declares His father to be the only true God – Jesus, in His humanity honors the Father as the only true God (there is nothing strange or conflicting in that – it makes perfect sense)… and, as we follow His life we must ask, where is the Son of God now..? He is united again with the Father, as He Himself declared, “Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.”(Luke 22), Hebrews states, “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.”</span>
So, if we must question anything we must ask ourselves how any being can sit at the right hand of all power and universal authority and not be in a position of equality with God…ONE with the Father, in the glory which He had with God before the world began..?
Secondly you mention Thomas calling Jesus “God”what you did not manage to notice was no one else responded that way at the time…
Thomas had a revelation of Jesus Christ as God, the same way that Peter saw He was truly the Messiah, that John saw He was the Word, that Phillip saw He was the Father, and Paul/Saul saw Him as Lord….
Jesus is 100% man and 100% God – but you people divorce His divinity from His humanity, using His human nature to contradict and deny His oneness with God.
Hi davidl,
Amazing the depth of justification that has risen around something that scripture never teaches.
Trinity is not found in any of the mouthpieces of God.
Jesus used human reasoning, so it is foolish to bash it because in doing so you bash his actions.
To answer Kerwin – reason has it’s place, but it is DEFINITELY NOT in interpreting Scripture – that was purely the realm of the religious whom Christ called ‘hypocrites’, and John termed – ‘brood of vipers’
The problem with Christendom and all its denominational division stems from man interpreting Scripture according to his own understanding and NOT according to the Spirit of God who wrote it (hence the endless conflict in comprehending the true nature of the trinity).
On the mount of transfiguration when the three disciples witnessed the transformed Christ in communication with two saints, Peter eagerly requested that they should make some tabernacles there… this likewise is the folly of religion…man receives a revelation from God and the first thing he wants to do is build some concrete doctrine out of it…yet the truth is living, and as the Father said to Peter, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!” – so we must learn to focus on the Son, to hear His voice, and be led this way… it is on the rock of revelation that Christ forms His living church – not the pursuit of correct doctrines that man’s institutional church is founded (and forever divided) on.
To NickHassan – I have made answer to your queries – the Word was God (which will always remain unsatisfactory to those who have not the Spirit), but I have expounded on this further for your benefit also..
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Yes, I know this is your verse of choice to use against the trinity, but again all you are doing is using the humanity of Jesus in an attempt to deny His deity…and thus slipping into the realm of teaching cult doctrine..
Let me know when you decide how John 1:1 should be worded – I know it’s rather a tricky one cause you don’t want to create another god who was with God, but then that’s the sad dilemma you face when you start tampering with the Scriptures..
Hi davidl,
Since you divide God from His own Spirit who is the father of Jesus-the Father or the Spirit?
Since Jesus is part of your trinity god is he then his own father?
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