Spiritual flesh bodies vs spirit bodies

[Wakeup]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2013,10:50)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2013,05:32) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 28 2013,01:42) THE GLORY OF THE FATHER IS THE GLORY OF THE FLESH?? I saw a lot of back and forth after Wakeup made this fine point, but I didn't really see an ANSWER from Kerwin. Kerwin, is the glory of the Father a “flesh glory”?  YES or NO? Also consider: Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being……… Exact representation?  Except for that the Father is a spirit being and the Son is a flesh being, right Kerwin?   Believe what you want.  You will anyway. Mike, I am not sure where wakeup or you are coming  from but I do not the back and forth between him and me was over a certain matter severe anti-intellectualism and how unhealthy I perceive it as being. I know God created human being and saw that his creation was very good but I do not think that is what you mean when you ask if God's glory is a flesh glory. God's great glory is to rescue those that can be rescued from sin.   He also rescues the flesh that is alive in the last days less none survive.  That too is one of his glories but I consider it as nothing when compared to what I just called his great glory. Am I warm to what you mean in any of these? Jesus has chosen never to sin and has held himself holy and God has never sinned and is holy are the most important ways Jesus is like God.

Kerwin.

I know where you are coming from.
You are drunken with strange wine.
You have been indulging yourslef in strange flesh.
The Holy Spirit is NOT your teacher.

wakeup.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2013,06:13)

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2013,17:50) Am I warm to what you mean in any of these? Coming with God's glory and God's angels means with bright lights, lightning bolts, thunder, trumpeter heralding, all kinds of supernatural and powerful displays, eyes of blazing fire, shooting fire out of mouths, etc. When Moses asked to see God's glory, what did God show him?  Beautiful and breathtaking supernatural sights?  Or did God “rescue someone from sin” in front of Moses to show him His glory?

Mike,

It certainly can be pyrotechnics but it is not always so.

What do you think of this one?

2 Corinthians 3:18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

or this one

1 Corinthians 11:7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

[kerwin]

Wakeup,

So you choose to persecute me for seeking knowledge of the truth.  Lack of knowledge is worthless to hold to.  Seek God's righteousness and his kingdom.

I would urge you to change subject but you seem to love lack of knowledge so I wonder what that would do.  I do hope you decide to show me and everyone else that you are zealous in pursuit of the truth and not prejudiced against common sense pursuits like reading the definition of a word in a dictionary when you do not understand it or to make sure you do.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2013,06:09)

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2013,17:37) Mike, Thomas had not seen Jesus yet so why would he believe Jesus was walking around mortally wounded?  If you were to tell me a person was walking around alive after they were dead on three days then the last thing I would believe is that they still bore the wounds that killed them in the first place. Kerwin, Your mentality is so far removed from the mentality of normal people like Thomas and the rest of us. They told Thomas that the VERY SAME Lord who had been speared had been raised from the dead. And OBVIOUSLY Thomas assumed that they meant IN THE SAME BODY, and that is WHY he said he wouldn't believe it until he could put his hands into that spear wound.

Mike,

Are you talking about the same Thomas that was with Jesus when the later resurrected other people such as Lazarus, who was not only alive but cured of sickness that killed him.

There is no argument I know that supports the translation chose be the vast majority of translators that Jesus still had holes in him but tradition.

[Wakeup]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2013,19:33)

Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 29 2013,09:36) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2013,10:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2013,05:32) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 28 2013,01:42) THE GLORY OF THE FATHER IS THE GLORY OF THE FLESH?? I saw a lot of back and forth after Wakeup made this fine point, but I didn't really see an ANSWER from Kerwin. Kerwin, is the glory of the Father a “flesh glory”?  YES or NO? Also consider: Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being……… Exact representation?  Except for that the Father is a spirit being and the Son is a flesh being, right Kerwin?   Believe what you want.  You will anyway. Mike, I am not sure where wakeup or you are coming  from but I do not the back and forth between him and me was over a certain matter severe anti-intellectualism and how unhealthy I perceive it as being. I know God created human being and saw that his creation was very good but I do not think that is what you mean when you ask if God's glory is a flesh glory. God's great glory is to rescue those that can be rescued from sin.   He also rescues the flesh that is alive in the last days less none survive.  That too is one of his glories but I consider it as nothing when compared to what I just called his great glory. Am I warm to what you mean in any of these? Jesus has chosen never to sin and has held himself holy and God has never sinned and is holy are the most important ways Jesus is like God. Kerwin. I know where you are coming from. You are drunken with strange wine. You have been indulging yourslef in strange flesh. The Holy Spirit is NOT your teacher. wakeup. Wake, So you choose to persecute me for seeking knowledge of the truth.  Lack of knowledge is worthless to hold to.  Seek God's righteousness and his kingdom.

Kewin.

I dont persecute anybody.
But I must wake you from your sleep.
Sometimes a little shout is helpful.

I do this for love of my brothers/sis.
Not for revenge nor anger.
I dont get angry,maybe a little.
All here are seekers,or they wont be here.
They will be playing video games instead.

You are still to me a seeking brother,
that has been drawn to the wrong path.
But it is still your choice to carry on your path.
Dont try to change scriptures as they are written.

wakeup.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2013,02:44)

There is no argument I know that supports the translation chose be the vast majority of translators that Jesus still had holes in him but tradition.

Well, let's see:

Thomas said he would NOT believe unless he could put his fingers in the hole.

Then Thomas met up with Jesus, and Jesus said, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

And then Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

And then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

So you tell me, Kerwin…… did Jesus tell Thomas to put his hand into his side?  And was it at that point that Thomas believed?

Do you think it would have played out like that (the words Jesus said to Thomas) if Jesus DIDN'T have the scars from his crucifixion on his body?  Would any of that discourse have made sense if Jesus DIDN'T have the hole in his side?

This is what I alluded to in the other thread today.  You search out a different definition than “into” – because you don't personally LIKE the translation of “into his side” – and then you start to build a doctrine around this other possible translation, never really knowing where exactly you're going until you're well on your way.

Just because there ARE other definitions doesn't mean one of the other ones fits the context, or makes anywhere close to as much sense as the most obvious one.  So before you go on your endless search of alternate definitions of Hebrew and Greek words, why not try the most obvious and most translated one on for size first?

Then, if you know in your heart of hearts that it simply can't scripturally be saying what the most translated word is making it say, you can go searching for alternates.

But for most cases we've discussed, your alternates are nothing but a waste of time, because the most translated definition not only fits the BEST, but also allows for that scripture to align with every other scripture in the Bible.

For example, the words Jesus said to Thomas make a LOT more sense if he told Thomas to put his hand INTO the hole than it would if he told Thomas to put his hand “onto” a side that didn't have anything wrong with it. 

So while you are TECHNICALLY and GRAMATICALLY correct that “unto” is also a definition of that Greek word, “INTO” is the most used definition of the word, and fits WAY BETTER into this particular context.

(In short, don't go CHANGING things up unless there is a VALID reason to do so.  In this case, there isn't.  Just because “unto” CAN BE used doesn't mean it SHOULD BE used.  And since it SHOULDN'T be used, the time we've used up on this point has been wasted time, IMO.)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2013,02:30)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2013,06:13) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2013,17:50) Am I warm to what you mean in any of these? Coming with God's glory and God's angels means with bright lights, lightning bolts, thunder, trumpeter heralding, all kinds of supernatural and powerful displays, eyes of blazing fire, shooting fire out of mouths, etc. When Moses asked to see God's glory, what did God show him?  Beautiful and breathtaking supernatural sights?  Or did God “rescue someone from sin” in front of Moses to show him His glory? Mike, It certainly can be pyrotechnics but it is not always so. What do you think of this one? 2 Corinthians 3:18 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. or this one 1 Corinthians 11:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Okay Kerwin.  I see you are once again searching and finding alternates that don't make anywhere close to as much sense as the obvious understanding.

You obviously agree that “pyrotechnics” could be the kind of powerful “glory” that Jesus said he would come back with, right?

But you've opted to search out scriptures that refer to MANKIND being the “glory of God”.  And what point would you like to make with those scriptures?  That Jesus was saying all eyes would see him coming on the clouds with the same exact “man-glory” that he had right then when he was saying those words?     Do you think he was saying, “When you see me coming on the clouds, I will have exactly as much glory from God that I have right now”?

This is what I've been talking about, Kerwin.  Just because it can be said that “man is the glory of God” does NOT mean that application would fit into the context where Jesus comes back as the Lord of heaven and earth, sustaining all things by the power of his word, and beating Satan and his hordes to a pulp.

Perhaps in the future, instead of just offering up alternates because they are available, you could explain to us WHY your alternate is a better fit for the immediate context, and the scriptures as a whole.

I didn't just offer up that “a god” is a grammatically possible translation of John 1:1c, did I?  Nope.  I explained using many scriptures and much reasoning why “a god” is the BEST translation for that verse – both because of the immediate context (1.  God the Father cannot possibly be WITH God the Father, 2.  the Word cannot both BE God and also be sent FROM God), and the scriptures as a whole (1.  Jesus is called both “a god” and “the Word” in other scriptures as well, 2.  all the things said about “the Word” in that chapter are said elsewhere in scripture about Jesus).

While I don't expect to see the same kind of effort from you (like putting together a 50 verse database that supports the fact that Jesus was the Word who was existing in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being, like I did), you could at least start off by directly addressing the bolded words in this post.

[kerwin]

Mike,

Quote

So you tell me, Kerwin…… did Jesus tell Thomas to put his hand into his side?  And was it at that point that Thomas believed?

No, as Jesus is recorded in Koine Greek and the word “en” has meanings the word “in” does not, “eis” another Koine Greek word has different meanings than “into”.  

Jesus told Thomas to put his hand {into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, among} his side.  Context is what determines which applies and there no context other than the translators choice that supports choosing “into”.

I can see where Jesus had scars, though even that was God's choice.

Note: eis

[Wakeup]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 01 2013,07:51)

Mike, Quote So you tell me, Kerwin…… did Jesus tell Thomas to put his hand into his side?  And was it at that point that Thomas believed? No, as Jesus is recorded in Koine Greek and the word “en” has meanings the word “in” does not, “eis” another Koine Greek word has different meanings than “into”.   Jesus told Thomas to put his hand {into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, among} his side.  Context is what determines which applies and there no context other than the translators choice that supports choosing “into”. I can see where Jesus had scars, though even that was God's choice. Note: eis

Please all: Take note!

Will Jesus come again in his same
body full of scars?
*****

Compare Jesus back then; and Jesus in revelation 19.

Revelation 19:12 ***His eyes were as a flame of fire***,

and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 22:13 ***I am Alpha and Omega***, the
beginning and the end,
***the first and the last***.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David,

and ***the bright and morning star***.

(NO SCARS):

wakeup.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 31 2013,14:51)

Mike, Quote So you tell me, Kerwin…… did Jesus tell Thomas to put his hand into his side?  And was it at that point that Thomas believed? No, as Jesus is recorded in Koine Greek and the word “en” has meanings the word “in” does not, “eis” another Koine Greek word has different meanings than “into”.   Jesus told Thomas to put his hand {into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, among} his side.  Context is what determines which applies and there no context other than the translators choice that supports choosing “into”.

Think it out, Kerwin.

If there was no hole remaining in Jesus' side, then there was no reason whatsoever for Thomas to say he wouldn't believe UNLESS he could put his hand “into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, OR among” his side.

Nor would there be any reason whatsoever for Jesus to tell Thomas to put his hand “into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, OR among” his side and stop doubting that he had been raised from the dead.

What do you think the purpose was for Thomas and Jesus to mention the side of Jesus?  Why his “side” if he was completely healed and there was nothing abnormal about his side?  

[mikeboll64]

Kerwin,

Please answer the bolded question in the other post from yesterday.

[kerwin]

Mike,

Quote

Do you think he was saying, “When you see me coming on the clouds, I will have exactly as much glory from God that I have right now”?

That is a more understandable question than the one about whether the glory of God was a flesh glory.  

This is a paraphrase:

Matthew 26:64
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Revelation 21:10-11
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

What is the “glory of God” in these passages?

[mikeboll64]

Pomp and circumstance.  Great beauty and power.  Intense awe.

Definitely not “saving a sinner” or the glory of a regular old human being.

Now, which “glory” fits better with Jesus “sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven”?

Which fits better with Jesus coming “from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God”?

Do either of these sound like typical “flesh glory”?  Do they sound like they are saying Jesus will come with the regular old glory of a regular old human being – nothing special?

(Btw, you didn't actually ANSWER the question I asked before. Please do so in a DIRECT and HONEST manner.)

[kerwin]

Mike,

Is there anything about a body in these passages, except for the fact Jesus is the Son of humanity when he returns.

I see glory of God as meaning something that brings glory onto God's name.

There was some celebrating as well.

The rest of what you say seems to be true as well.

[terraricca]

K

Quote

That is a more understandable question than the one about whether the glory of God was a flesh glory. Revelation 21:10-11 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; What is the “glory of God” in these passages?

WHAT IS THE GLORY OF GOD DOES IT CHANGES IN TIME ,OR IN CIRCUMSTANCES GOD SAYS HE NEVER CHANGES ,SO IT MUST BE THE SAME NO MATTER WHAT ;SO WHAT IS IT MEAN THEN HAVING THE GLORY ,SEEN THE GLORY ,BEING DISPLAYED

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK KERWIN IT HIS

[kerwin]

T,

The word glory of God mean different things in different situations.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 01 2013,10:34)

T, The word glory of God mean different things in different situations.

K

This would mean that you can answer some of it right

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 31 2013,19:57)

I see glory of God as meaning something that brings glory onto God's name.

So then Jesus existed every second on earth “with the glory of God” if that is the case, right?

So what point was Jesus making by telling us he would return with “the glory of God”? How was this “returning glory” different than the glory he brought to God during his time on earth? Because if he didn't mean something different by it, then why say it at all?

(I believe you are once again purposely being obstinate – pretending not to see what you know in your heart is there.)

[kerwin]

Mike,

What Scripture literally states is that Jesus is the radiance of the glory of God.

It also states, though not literally, that all men except for him have fallen short of the Glory of God.

Man is the glory of God so Jesus being a male human would in the same way be the glory of God.

It depends on how you look at it.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 01 2013,12:28)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 01 2013,10:34) T, The word glory of God mean different things in different situations. K This would mean that you can answer some of it right

T,

It most likely means that even at my best I am seeing but a shadow of what God means.

[Author]

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