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Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2013,16:45) Mike, What you say John 1:14 says is not what it literally says. What you are saying with your meaning is that a creature called the word was made into a human being by transformation. I disagree.
But CAN John 1:14 be saying what I believe it says? Is it POSSIBLE, knowing that Jesus is indeed called “the Word” in Rev 19, to understand 1:14 as telling us that this being called “the Word” became flesh and dwelled on earth as a flesh and blood man?Of course it is. In fact, I can't personally think of a better way to say it than “The Word (Jesus) became flesh and dwelled among us (on earth) with the glory of God's only begotten Son.”
And more than that, it would be VERY HARD to understand those exact words any OTHER way.
And we all know that it is simply because you don't LIKE what John actually taught us that you go about ALTERING his words in an effort to FORCE them into teaching what it is you DO want him to be teaching.
Once again, the bottom line will ALWAYS be that YOU must ALTER John's words to fulfill your unscriptural, man-made doctrine. My belief that the being Jesus emptied himself and became a flesh and blood man doesn't require me to ALTER a single scriptural word. And it even gives me the benefit of being SUPPORTED by Phil 2:6-8 and other scriptures.
So disagree all you want. But even you can't honestly deny how EASY it is for many of us to believe 1:14 is telling how Jesus became a flesh and blood man, and dwelled among us on earth.
You can continue add in your own words, or to imagine abstract alternate meanings of those words, as you've been doing for at least three years now……. but you'll never be able to deny the simple LOGIC of understanding them the way I do.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2013,16:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2013,21:13) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2013,19:34) Nerveless it is true that the Word is made flesh is the same as saying “The Holy Spirit came to be in someone” because the Holy Spirit reveals the word. It is also the same as saying the word is manifest in the flesh.
1. God was IN Jesus, doing the works.2. God BECAME Jesus, and did the works.
Kerwin, the day those two statements mean the same thing is the day your alteration of John 1:14 means the same thing as what John actually wrote.
Mike,Why do you think Jesus stated that one of the twelve was a devil?
John 6:70
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
in case you need it here is another way Scripture paraphrases what he said.
Luke 22:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
If you are saying Luke 22:3 is a “paraphrase” of John 6:70, then you are mistaken. They are two different teachings altogether.But before being sidetracked by this new issue, why not just address the two points in my previous post – as quoted in the box above?
Kerwin, do YOU think both of my two statements mean the same thing? YES or NO?
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2013,16:57) Gene, Your words sound right.
Maybe Gene could also answer that question.Gene, do my two statements mean the same thing? YES or NO?
Mike,
Quote But CAN John 1:14 be saying what I believe it says? Is it POSSIBLE, knowing that Jesus is indeed called “the Word” in Rev 19, to understand 1:14 as telling us that this being called “the Word” became flesh and dwelled on earth as a flesh and blood man? Looking as the letter of John 1:14 alone it is possible but it is not certain. The words “The Word was made flesh” are too vague as they do not tell you everything. That has been my point.
Quote Of course it is. In fact, I can't personally think of a better way to say it than “The Word (Jesus) became flesh and dwelled among us (on earth) with the glory of God's only begotten Son.” I already wrote your opinion more explicitly than that.
Quote And more than that, it would be VERY HARD to understand those exact words any OTHER way. You are so not making your case.
Quote My belief that the being Jesus emptied himself and became a flesh and blood man doesn't require me to ALTER a single scriptural word. I already pointed out you are adding and altering words as far as John 1:14 is concerned nor does Philippians 2:6-8 say what you want them to say. After all I have read Philippians 2:6-8 and cannot not find angel in there anywhere, nor can I figure out how and angel can empty himself of his outer form and then take on the inner form of a lesser servant. He could not have taken on the outer form of a lesser, see note, servant that was human because he was made in the form of a human.
Note: I find the lesser acceptable as I know Scripture states creation when speaking of the new creation. It also states flesh and blood to mean mortal flesh.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,07:51) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2013,16:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2013,21:13) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2013,19:34) Nerveless it is true that the Word is made flesh is the same as saying “The Holy Spirit came to be in someone” because the Holy Spirit reveals the word. It is also the same as saying the word is manifest in the flesh.
1. God was IN Jesus, doing the works.2. God BECAME Jesus, and did the works.
Kerwin, the day those two statements mean the same thing is the day your alteration of John 1:14 means the same thing as what John actually wrote.
Mike,Why do you think Jesus stated that one of the twelve was a devil?
John 6:70
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
in case you need it here is another way Scripture paraphrases what he said.
Luke 22:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
If you are saying Luke 22:3 is a “paraphrase” of John 6:70, then you are mistaken. They are two different teachings altogether.But before being sidetracked by this new issue, why not just address the two points in my previous post – as quoted in the box above?
Kerwin, do YOU think both of my two statements mean the same thing? YES or NO?
Mike,Both teachings are talking about the same idea and that is that Judas chose to accept Satan's orders. When Satan entered Judas, Judas became Satan as Judas was at that time Satan's human clothing.
The Word entered Jesus and Jesus became the Word's human clothing.
God is in Jesus and Jesus is his human clothing.
Is Judas literally Satan?
Is God literally Jesus?
Is the Word literally Jesus?
Yes, in the ways I am speaking they mean the same thing.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2013,07:57) You are so not making your case. 
My case has not only been made, but won. Your insistence on altering scriptural teachings to FORCE them to not teach my case is really of no consequence to anyone seeking the truth of the matter.Your own words have admitted that John 1:14 COULD BE understood my way. Now, let's add in all the other supports:
1. The Word is called “the Word” in John 1…………. Jesus is called “the Word” in Rev 19:13 and 1 John 1:1 – by the same exact author.
2. The Word was with God in the beginning……… Jesus had glory with God before the world began.
3. The Word was a god………… Jesus is called “god” in at least 5 scriptures.
4. All things were created through the Word……… all things were created through Jesus.
5. The Word was the light that came into the world…….. Jesus was the light that came into the world.
6. All those who believe in the name of the Word receive the right to become children of God……….. all those who believe in the name of Jesus receive the right to become children of God.
7. The spirit Word pre-existed and was made flesh…….. Jesus existed in the form of God and was made into the likeness of a flesh human being.
8. The Word dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son……….. Jesus is the only person who ever dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.
9. John testified about the Word, saying “He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me”…….. John testified about Jesus, saying “He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.”
10. Out of the Word's fullness, we have received grace………. grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
This last one is very important, because it shows the exact spot where John begins to call this “Word” he has been talking about “Jesus Christ”.
16 Out of his (the Word's) fullness we have all received grace………
17 …….grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
So Kerwin, when you take your acknowledgement that 1:14 COULD BE saying what I think it says, and add to it all these other things, it's easy to see that I have struck the mother lode, while you are left with many more scriptures in need of your alterations. And that's without even considering the many other scriptures in the Bible that speak of the pre-existence of Jesus. These 10 points are, for the most part, limited only to things said in one single chapter of John's gospel.
And that, my friend, makes your statement, “You are so not making your case”, simply laughable……… and a matter of pure denial on your part.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2013,08:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,07:51)
1. God was IN Jesus, doing the works.2. God BECAME Jesus, and did the works.
Kerwin, do YOU think both of my two statements mean the same thing? YES or NO?
Mike,Yes, in the ways I am speaking they mean the same thing.
Game, set, and match.Kerwin, if you seriously believe the two statements I posted mean the same exact thing, then you are not intelligent enough to carry on a scriptural discussion with me.
Hit me up when you wise up.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 14 2013,02:10) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2013,08:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,07:51)
1. God was IN Jesus, doing the works.2. God BECAME Jesus, and did the works.
Kerwin, do YOU think both of my two statements mean the same thing? YES or NO?
Mike,Yes, in the ways I am speaking they mean the same thing.
Game, set, and match.Kerwin, if you seriously believe the two statements I posted mean the same exact thing, then you are not intelligent enough to carry on a scriptural discussion with me.
Hit me up when you wise up.
In the *BEGINNING* was the Word.
*Beginning* because that's when the Word *begins*
to create.And the Word was *WITH* God.
*With* God; because God brought out his Word next to him.
As his express image.And the Word *WAS*God.
*WAS* God; before he was brough out of God.
Still inside God.Not yet with God.The Word *WAS A GOD* is not correct,For God is ONE God.
Because the angels worshipped God *only* before the world was made.There was never another God they worship.Only after Jesus was resurrected, and again with his father.
Were the angels commanded to worship him.Not before.
(heb.1).Angels are not beings.
Only God and his Word/his image, are beings.
Angels are created creatures,and we are their brethren
in the flesh.Micha'el is an arc angel, and is
also created by the will of God through his Word.
Micha'el can *NOT* be the Word.
Micha'el is a creature,like we are.The Word was *A* God makes two Gods in heaven.
A contradiction to these scriptures below.
Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. ***Is there a God beside me?*** yea, ***there is no God***; ***I know not any***.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that ***stretcheth forth the heavens alone***; ***that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself***.
wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,21:10) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2013,08:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,07:51)
1. God was IN Jesus, doing the works.2. God BECAME Jesus, and did the works.
Kerwin, do YOU think both of my two statements mean the same thing? YES or NO?
Mike,Yes, in the ways I am speaking they mean the same thing.
Game, set, and match.Kerwin, if you seriously believe the two statements I posted mean the same exact thing, then you are not intelligent enough to carry on a scriptural discussion with me.
Hit me up when you wise up.
Mike,Satan was in Judas and Satan was Judas at the same time.
The Word was in Jesus and the Word was Jesus at the same time.You seem to believe the first statement and not the second though they hold to the same pastern.
You say you can accept the first because they are different teachings but it should be that Satan was Judas because Satan was doing his works through Judas. At the same time is should be obvious to those that think on the spiritual level that Satan entered by the corrupt spirit Judas chose to live by.
You are not accepting that the Word is Jesus because the Word is doing his works through Jesus. You are also not excepting that the word entered Jesus via the Holy Spirit that Jesus chooses to live by.
The name Jesus was not mentioned in the beginning.
But the Word was mentioned.
The name Jesus was only mentioned *after* the Word was
made flesh.
The Son of man was called Jesus.God thinks of what to say,and His Words spoken
out in audio by Jesus.wakeup.
The name Jesus was not mentioned in the beginning.
But the Word was mentioned.
The name Jesus was only mentioned *after* the Word was
made flesh.
The Son of man was called Jesus.God thinks of what to say,and His Words spoken
out in audio by Jesus.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 15 2013,05:30) The name Jesus was not mentioned in the beginning.
But the Word was mentioned.
The name Jesus was only mentioned *after* the Word was
made flesh.
The Son of man was called Jesus.God thinks of what to say,and His Words spoken
out in audio by Jesus.wakeup.
Wakup,I agree with your words but probably not with your intent as the word is not a being.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 15 2013,10:42) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 15 2013,05:30) The name Jesus was not mentioned in the beginning.
But the Word was mentioned.
The name Jesus was only mentioned *after* the Word was
made flesh.
The Son of man was called Jesus.God thinks of what to say,and His Words spoken
out in audio by Jesus.wakeup.
Wakup,I agree with your words but probably not with your intent as the word is not a being.
Kerwin.How can God's Word not be a being?
He is the *LIVING* WORD of God.
He created everything,by the will of God.
He had glory with God before the world was.
He walked in the flesh as a living person.Is your own word not an effective spirit?
Can you not persuade someone by your word?
Are students not taught by words?
Words can also be written on paper.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 15 2013,06:19) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 15 2013,10:42) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 15 2013,05:30) The name Jesus was not mentioned in the beginning.
But the Word was mentioned.
The name Jesus was only mentioned *after* the Word was
made flesh.
The Son of man was called Jesus.God thinks of what to say,and His Words spoken
out in audio by Jesus.wakeup.
Wakup,I agree with your words but probably not with your intent as the word is not a being.
Kerwin.How can God's Word not be a being?
He is the *LIVING* WORD of God.
He created everything,by the will of God.
He had glory with God before the world was.
He walked in the flesh as a living person.Is your own word not an effective spirit?
Can you not persuade someone by your word?
Are students not taught by words?
Words can also be written on paper.wakeup.
Wakeup,God's Word is God's thoughts, “speech”, “writing”, and any other way he expresses himself. The bible is a part of God's word. Those who speak as they are carried along by the spirit are speaking God' word. Those who waking according to the spirit are giving flesh to God's word. It is clearly not a being.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 15 2013,14:42) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 15 2013,06:19) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 15 2013,10:42) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 15 2013,05:30) The name Jesus was not mentioned in the beginning.
But the Word was mentioned.
The name Jesus was only mentioned *after* the Word was
made flesh.
The Son of man was called Jesus.God thinks of what to say,and His Words spoken
out in audio by Jesus.wakeup.
Wakup,I agree with your words but probably not with your intent as the word is not a being.
Kerwin.How can God's Word not be a being?
He is the *LIVING* WORD of God.
He created everything,by the will of God.
He had glory with God before the world was.
He walked in the flesh as a living person.Is your own word not an effective spirit?
Can you not persuade someone by your word?
Are students not taught by words?
Words can also be written on paper.wakeup.
Wakeup,God's Word is God's thoughts, “speech”, “writing”, and any other way he expresses himself. The bible is a part of God's word. Those who speak as they are carried along by the spirit are speaking God' word. Those who waking according to the spirit are giving flesh to God's word. It is clearly not a being.
Kerwin.Please consider this scripture.
Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
*He* did not choose to be in the form of angels,
but took on *HIMSELF* the form of man.Who was *HE*?
What was *HE* before he took the form of man?wakeup.
Wakeup,
Hebrews 2:14-16
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)14 Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death — that is, the devil —
15 and might deliver those, whoever, with fear of death, throughout all their life, were subjects of bondage,
16 for, doubtless, of messengers it doth not lay hold, but of seed of Abraham it layeth hold,Hebrews 2:14-16
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
I do not think the AKJV has that correct as it seems to conflict with other passages that state Jesus was made in the likeness of a human. Do you know other passages you can use to make the same point?
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 16 2013,04:40) Wakeup, Hebrews 2:14-16
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)14 Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death — that is, the devil —
15 and might deliver those, whoever, with fear of death, throughout all their life, were subjects of bondage,
16 for, doubtless, of messengers it doth not lay hold, but of seed of Abraham it layeth hold,Hebrews 2:14-16
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
I do not think the AKJV has that correct as it seems to conflict with other passages that state Jesus was made in the likeness of a human. Do you know other passages you can use to make the same point?
Kerwin.Not correct:
Jesus was not made as a man.
Its was the Word that was made as a man.
You can not accept that God's Word is a living Word.
And that he can give him a shape like himself.
And be side by side with him, having glory together.
Enjoying the creations.
There can not be two,but ONE.
He did it all by himself.wakeup.
Wakeup,
Philippians 2:7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)7 but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
here is the passage I am speaking of and it states Jesus “was made in the likeness of men”.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 16 2013,06:37) Wakeup, Philippians 2:7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)7 but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
here is the passage I am speaking of and it states Jesus “was made in the likeness of men”.
Kerwin.What was He *before* he was made a man?
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 16 2013,03:29) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 16 2013,06:37) Wakeup, Philippians 2:7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)7 but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
here is the passage I am speaking of and it states Jesus “was made in the likeness of men”.
Kerwin.What was He *before* he was made a man?
wakeup.
Wakeup,A man's flesh is made of a woman and his breath comes from God and when the two meet he first becomes a living soul. Jesus was the same as any man that is made of a woman before he was made of the seed of David.
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