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Yes, I do believe in more than Sola scriptura but the problem is not that you cannot be guided orally through men of Guidance the problem is what are they rooted in, if they are firmly rooted in a lie then their entire guidance is corrupt.
A person who is taught that slang is proper english cannot teach me proper english.
The entire root of the catholic church and her daughters is delusion. Consider this, by setting up the trinity and making Jesus Christ equal to God the result is the Pope is to represent Jesus until the return of Jesus which means the Pope is essentially god on earth.
People worship the Pope. But I have said and I still say that Paul is responsible for the Catholic church although the church attempts to tie themselves to Peter.
CA………..We are told “if they speak (Not) according to these words , it's because the truth is (Not) in them. SO when you pray (HOLY MARY MOTHER OF GOD) does that ring true with you?.
peace and love…………………gene
Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 23 2009,22:24) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 23 2009,15:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 23 2009,15:05) How about accepting the guidance of an orginization that has done this? Quote The Christian Connection The celebration in the Roman Catholic Church, which was later to merge with Samhain, was known as All Saints' Day. All Saints' Day originated in the 7th century when the Pantheon at Rome was wrested from the barbarians, made into a cathedral, and renamed the Church of the Blessed Virgin and All Martyrs. Thus, from honoring “all gods” (which is the meaning of the Greek word “pantheon”) the Pantheon became the center for glorifying all saints.
This day that honored all the “hallowed” saints was first observed on the evening of May 13, and was known as the All hallows festival. The day was officially authorized in 835 by Pope Gregory IV after it was moved to November 1 to coincide with Samhain. It began on the evening of October 31, which was called All Hallows Eve.
Thus, without forcing the pagans to drop their pagan practices and accept Christianity, the Roman Catholic church merely made room to accommodate the barbarians.
Just as it confiscated the pagan Pantheon for its own uses, this church incorporated the customs of Samhain to further its mission to convert the known world to Catholicism.
The two celebrations made strange bedfellows: one in respect of evil spirits, the other honoring “saints.”
Nevertheless, the joining of the two celebrations produced a hybrid of beliefs about what was supposed to happen in the spirit world. Souls in purgatory appeared as witches and toads to persons who had wronged them. Halloween fires took on a new meaning and now were used to comfort souls in purgatory as people prayed while holding burning straw in the air.
Even the idea of trick-or-treating by evil spirits took on an acceptable church flavor: costumed children went around on All Souls Day offering to fast for the departed souls in return for money or an offering.
As the Celts converted to the new religion, they did not forget their stories of the dead traveling to the afterworld on Halloween. Rather, exhibitions of this night became more evil and the observance adopted even more malicious overtones.
Please respond, If scripture is not your guide how do you seperate yourself from what is clearly evil?
Excuse me. But Scripture IS a guide for the faithful. But you cannot refute the fact that the Bible commands us to follow oral tradition. (2 Thess. 2:15)You have still NOT shown me a scripture where the Bible claims to be the ONLY rule for faith and practice.
Think.
A.D.324 Constantine established Christianity the official religion of His empire. It will become known as the “Roman Universal Church.First the Romans persecuted all Christians until Constantine the emperor of the Roman empire issued an edit, It was a brutal and bloody persecution. for three century.
Constantine put a stop to it. That was in
A,D, 313.The first Christian never kept the trinity Doctrine, it was in A,D. 193 that pagan upbringing man institute that doctrine/
But before I go into that, let me say, that Constantine, forbid to work on Sundays, and made the day of worship.
Even times were changed, God's Calendar is no more. No more Sabbath either. Not only that, all of God' Holy Days also; and pagan Holidays were instituted, like X-mas a d Easter, All Saints Day. I have always wondered why!!!It was Quintus Septimus Florence Tertullian who instituted the Doctrine of the Trinity.
The Catholic Church also did not let anybody have a Bible. if you were caught reading it, or possessing one, you were tortured and died. Millions died.Let me show you some scriptures that shows us that the Trinity is false.
Deut. 4:35″ Unto Thee it was shewed , that yOU MIGHHTEST
KNOW that the LORD He is God,there is none beside Him.”Deut. 6:4 ” Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, is one LORD.”
1 Cor. 6:4 ” That there is none other God but ONE.
Ephesians 4:6 …one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all, and in us all.”
And by Jesus own words He said this
John 14:28 …..for My Father is greater then I.The doctrine of the trinity is a man made Doctrine and the first Christians and the Apostles did not teach-it.
In Math. 15:9 ” But in vain do the worship Me. teaching the doctrine the commandment of men,”Rev. tells us to come out of Her my People. We have.
It is not easy to do what we did, but I am forever thankful to God for calling us out of the Catholic Church.
What was so ironic is, when we first started to learn all of this, we called our Parish Priest and asked Him. He said to my Husband God is calling you. He knew something.
I hope that you will study hard.
Peace and Love Irene
Cindy,God love you. But your history is atrocious. I don't know where to start here.
Quote A.D.324 Constantine established Christianity the official religion of His empire. It will become known as the “Roman Universal Church. Yes, Constantine established Christianity as the official religion of the empire.
No, it is not the Roman Catholic (Universal) Church. Roman Catholic is a pejorative term applied to Catholics by Protestants for only the last 500 yrs. (not very long).
I'm going to surprise you all here by saying that I am NOT Roman Catholic. I'm actually Eastern Catholic. But we have always been in communion with the Pope from the beginning. There are 22 different churches that make up the Catholic communion. 21 are Eastern Catholic. 1 comprises the Western Catholic tradition. (or the Latin Catholics – by far the largest) If you want an objective source for this, just look up Wikipedia for Catholic Church and you'll get the same story there.
We confess One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church because we are all in communion and have NO doctrinal disagreements in any of the things bound for belief on the faithful.
My spiritual authority is the Patriarch of Antioch and the Pope of Rome.
We have a direct line of succession in every generation since Pentecost. How many of you can say that?
Quote The first Christian never kept the trinity Doctrine, it was in A,D. 193 that pagan upbringing man institute that doctrine Why am I not surprised that you brought this up? Given the enormity of posts on this subject, I expected it. I look forward to soundly refuting this wild claim.
Quote and pagan Holidays were instituted, like X-mas a d Easter, All Saints Day. I have always wondered why!!! Great. Let's do a separate thread on that subject. Looking forward to it.
Quote The Catholic Church also did not let anybody have a Bible. if you were caught reading it, or possessing one, you were tortured and died. Hmm…that's funny…since Saint Jerome said “ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.” Where do you read this stuff?
Quote The doctrine of the trinity is a man made Doctrine and the first Christians and the Apostles did not teach-it. OK, let's do a new thread for this. I'm not going to accuse you of sabotaging this thread. I think you're just eager to get to your pet issue. No problem.
But let's get on the same ground yet. Where's your Scripture supporting the unhistorical, non-apostolic claim of Sola Scriptura? I'm waiting. ….. Patiently.
Quote He said to my Husband God is calling you. Either he meant something else, or God have mercy on his soul.
More later…
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 23 2009,20:03) CA – Welcome, brother! Glad to see you found your way here.
Can't wait to hear more!
Love,
Mandy
Not3 – Thanks for introducing me to this wonderful bunch of people!Sounds like we have some good times ahead
CA……….Catholics, Apostolic and Protestant are all from (ONE) common source , the ROMAN EMPIRE Started BY CONSTANTIN in 325 AD at the council of Necia. When the TRINITY was enacted (Homonousious) GOD from GOD. A false teachings of the apostate Churches which is still taught today by all these fallen Churches, and will be abolished at the return of Jesus (2 Ths2). IMO
peace and love……………………gene
Hi CA,
If you cannot trust yourself to learn from the words of scripture would you trust others?
The message is plain to children so why not you?
Seek the Spirit[Lk11]CA,
You will find that many threads go off track (a bit, or a truckload!). That seems to be the nature of this real-time board, so don't let it frustrate you too much. There are threads dedicated to the Trinity, as you will notice. Two of my favorite topics are: Conception, and Preexistence.
Okay, I have some catching up to do. Looks like you've been busy. It also looks like you have been introduced to our former Catholics on this board (Nick, Irene and her husband Georg *they share the same log in name, “Cindy”).
My husband was raised Catholic – went to a private Catholic school and is the last of eight children. This topic is very interesting to me!! I'm glad that you are here!
Love,
MandyCA,
I'm glad you are here too! Please feel free to express yourself without restraint because honesty and love is the best thing about this site here. Ihave joined dozens of Christian/religious forums and this forum is one of the most rare gems on the net and I pray that it grows tremendously.
We here fight, disagree and carry on with each other but in the sense of reasoning together. We will not hold back because we love you and right or wrong we won't stop loving you but we may hate each others doctrines but May God have Mercy on us all.
Romans 11
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 24 2009,05:22) CA………..We are told “if they speak (Not) according to these words , it's because the truth is (Not) in them. SO when you pray (HOLY MARY MOTHER OF GOD) does that ring true with you?. peace and love…………………gene
Let's start a thread sometime soon about Mary. I think you will find it enlightening. When we do, let's try to stay clear of this Mormon-like “burning in the bosom” subjective stuff like “does that ring true with you?”Please…ONE Scripture in support of Sola Scriptura. PLEASE!
At this point I'm assuming you agree with me since you can't support your belief anymore.
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 24 2009,11:18) CA……….Catholics, Apostolic and Protestant are all from (ONE) common source , the ROMAN EMPIRE Started BY CONSTANTIN in 325 AD at the council of Necia. When the TRINITY was enacted (Homonousious) GOD from GOD. A false teachings of the apostate Churches which is still taught today by all these fallen Churches, and will be abolished at the return of Jesus (2 Ths2). IMO peace and love……………………gene
Um…have you EVER read the Ante-Nicene fathers? (church fathers who lived before Constantine?You would find it very enlightening. You would see that they all believed in the eucharist, the trinity, the pre-existence of the Son, the authority of the church and it's physical characteristics, a hierarchical structure of servant leadership, etc.
So forgive me if you sound like someone who is not very well read in the things you presume to speak about.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 24 2009,11:26) Hi CA,
Does God recognise your humanly appointed authority?
Call no man FATHER
Look, I get it. You can't support Sola Scriptura. Just do us all a favor and admit it.If you want to deal with calling a priest “father”, we can deal with that. But what makes you think I want to debate you on that simple topic when you shy away from something as fundamental as Sola Scriptura? Huh?
CA,
Can you give us a reading list? A few books that you have found helpful?
I have one book on church history that I have ref'd a lot: Church History (Twenty Centuries of Catholic Christianity) by John C. Dwyer? Every read it? Written by a Catholic Professor….only you'd never guess. He has some interesting insights to the church and it's doctrine.
Love,
MandyQuote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 24 2009,11:13) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 23 2009,20:03) CA – Welcome, brother! Glad to see you found your way here.
Can't wait to hear more!
Love,
Mandy
Not3 – Thanks for introducing me to this wonderful bunch of people!Sounds like we have some good times ahead
I can't wait to see you unleashed on the Trinity threads…..I have long lost my vigor to debate such topics; it seems the bible can be interpreted so many different ways. I am inclined to listen more than defend these days. But maybe I am just “standing” for now.
I press on, though more duly than before I admit.
Love,
MandyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 24 2009,11:56) Hi CA,
If you cannot trust yourself to learn from the words of scripture would you trust others?
The message is plain to children so why not you?
Seek the Spirit[Lk11]
I do trust myself to learn from the words of Scripture. But not in an absolute sense. I am not knowledgable enough to verify beyond the shadow of a doubt what the apostles MEANT by any given passage. Why? Because there is an INSIDE TRACK that the Bible doesn't give us.As a Protestant, I can't tell you how many times I wished that I had the apostle Paul to ask, “When you said this, did you mean A or C or D”?
Come on, be honest. You've probably wondered that as well.
And the point I am making is that God didn't leave us orphans to try to figure out on our own what the correct interpretation of Scripture is. Scripture isn't written like a catechism FOR A REASON. It wasn't meant to be one.
It is incomplete without the Church who wrote it and the Oral Tradition that accompanies it.
No Christians before Martin Luther would have thought to make such a wild claim. Luther's convenience was the Catholic invented printing press.
Just imagine trying to hand-write a copy of Scripture for the masses. No, Jesus didn't do that. The apostles didn't do that. The Scriptures have been read publicly in the Church for two Millennia. I probably heard more Scripture read this morning in my Eastern Catholic church than all of you put together in your fundamental protestant congregations.
And, again, a child cannot pick up the Bible and understand it. If the Ethiopian eunuch couldn't. My three year old can't. Not without the interpretation of the fathers and the councils, namely the church who produced it under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.
And might I add, it isn't plain to all adults either. Or what are we debating about if it's so stinkin' clear? Huh?
All I'm asking for here is a little honesty from you before God.
Are you interested in truth? Or are you interested in propping up a theological viewpoint you don't want to change?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 24 2009,14:10) CA, I'm glad you are here too! Please feel free to express yourself without restraint because honesty and love is the best thing about this site here. Ihave joined dozens of Christian/religious forums and this forum is one of the most rare gems on the net and I pray that it grows tremendously.
We here fight, disagree and carry on with each other but in the sense of reasoning together. We will not hold back because we love you and right or wrong we won't stop loving you but we may hate each others doctrines but May God have Mercy on us all.
Romans 11
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Thanks. I feel much the same way when it comes to debate. Truth is the goal. It makes no sense to get offended when we are challenged. If what we believe can't hold water, then what are we doing believing it?Hi CA,
Should all men be following the pope?
Is he the true representative of God and all other religions are false?
Is he known for the ministry of power that Jesus and the apostles had or is it just theory?How about the INQUISTION as fruit?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 24 2009,14:37) CA, Can you give us a reading list? A few books that you have found helpful?
I have one book on church history that I have ref'd a lot: Church History (Twenty Centuries of Catholic Christianity) by John C. Dwyer? Every read it? Written by a Catholic Professor….only you'd never guess. He has some interesting insights to the church and it's doctrine.
Love,
Mandy
Great question. It would be long.A great concise history of the Protestant Revolt (Reformation) would be:
“The Roots of the Reformation” by Karl Adam – Read it for free here:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/chistory/rtref.txtBut one of the best things I could refer all of you to would be the Ante-Nicene fathers and their writings. There is a good set out there by Jergens. But this is just historical record. So you can get it in many places. I encourage you all to at least read the fathers who knew the apostles themselves and their disciples:
Clement of Rome (successor to Peter and knew several apostles)
Polycarp of Smyrna (disciple of John)
Ignatius of Antioch (knew several apostles, successor to Peter in Antioch)
Irenaeus of Lyons (disciple of Polycarp who was disciple of John)
I could give more, but those even suffice as a great introduction.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 24 2009,15:00) Hi CA,
Should all men be following the pope?
Is he the true representative of God and all other religions are false?
Is he known for the ministry of power that Jesus and the apostles had or is it just theory?How about the INQUISTION as fruit?
Do you insist on rabbit trails? Why can't you deal with the topic at hand?Let's do a thread about the pope sometime too. It is actually the issue of the pope that made this flaming anti-Catholic consider the Catholic church.
But I will not be deterred here. Can no one defend Sola Scriptura?
(BTW, how about the conversion of the entire pagan world as fruit?)
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