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False religious teachings……sin debts
Did Jesus pay our sin debt off, by his death on the cross? If so in what way did he do it?
Scripture says, …..>“God so loved the world that he gave his only (uniquely) begotten so, that how soever believes in him “SHOULD” , not perish”. Does that mean, if we simply acknowledge Jesus as the Christ of God, our sins are forgiven us?, or is there far more to it than that? I believe you can believe in Jesus all you want and still never have a single sin forgiven you. Just as it says, …….>“Faith without works is dead”.
So the question arises, “in what way”, did Jesus die for my sins? I believe his death was to show us all the “the way”, to have our sins forgiven and have a right relationship with God the Father, we must do what Jesus did in order to have our sins forgiven us, He died for us in this sense , to “SHOW” us all “HOW” to have a right relationship with God the Father, and it is exactly the same as his is. IMO
Peace and love to you all and yours ……….gene
To all…….sorry for the misspelling in my above post it should have said…..>. “God so loved the world that he gave his only (uniquely) begotten Son , that who soever believed in him should not perish”.
Jesus also said …….> “many”, would come unto him , in that day saying , in your name we have done all these good works, and he would say unto them , depart from me you workers of iniquity, I know you not whence you are”.
So it seems a person can do all kind of thing in Jesus’ name and still miss out. A good example of this is found in Revelations regarding the church at Ephesus . …..> “Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things says he that holds the seven stars un his right hand, who walked in the midst of the seven candlesticks; I know your works, and your labors, and your patience, and how you can’t bear them which do evil:and you have tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and has found them liars: and have born, and have patience, and for my names sake have labored, and have not fainted”.
Now you would think that was a perfect church right? , but what does the SPIRIT OF GOD , SAY?, …….> “Nevertheless I have somewhat against you, because you have left you “FIRST LOVE”. Remember from whence you are fallen, and repent, and do the “FIRST WORKS”; or else I will come unto you quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except you repent”.
This is the way most churches exist today, they have replaced the love for, God the Father , for their LOVE FOR JESUS. Making and worshiping him as their God, instead of the “ONE” and “ONLY” TRUE God. They have indeed left their “FIRST LOVE”.
Peace and love to you all and yours………gene
Hi Gene,
You: This is the way most churches exist today, they have replaced the love for, God the Father , for their LOVE FOR JESUS.
Me: We should love BOTH of them.
1 Corinthians 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.Danny, yes we should love JESUS, but there is a priority, when it comes to love. Let’s let Jesus explain it……..> “Mark 12: 29-31….> “And Jesus answered him, the “FIRST” of “ALL” the commandments is Hear, O Israel ; The LORD OUR GOD is “ONE” Lord: And you shall love the Lord thy GOD with “ALL” your hear, and with “ALL” your soul, and with “ALL” your mind, and with “ALL” your strength: this is the “FIRST” commandment . AND the second is “LIKE” unto it, ( but not the same). You shall love you neighbor as thyself .
The “Second” is not the same as the first, DANNY.
Peace and love to you and yours………gene
Hi Gene,
You: AND the second is “LIKE” unto it, ( but not the same). You shall love you neighbor as thyself .
The “Second” is not the same as the first, DANNY.Me: Jesus Christ is in the first, because He is the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16
Danny , we’re talking about the “first “LOVE”, not the first begotten from death to eternal life, by the Lord God raising him from the dead. I think you’re shifting what we are talking about here. Please go and read what Jesus told the Church at Ephesus in revelations, and think about it, because that fits exactly the way, nearly all churches are today. That is why when Jesus returns he will reject then, then they will turn on him and call him the “the Anti-Christ”, they have all ready conditioned the churches to think that WAY, by saying the ANTICHRIST WILL COME FIRST, and deceive the world, when in fact they are the ones deceiving the world now, about who Jesus really is.
The apostle John coined the word “ANTICHRIST ” , describing the Gnostic’s who had crep into the church with the false teachings, that Jesus was a preexisting God, and therefore did not need to be “anointed with the Spirit of GOD , because he was already a God, So they taught against the anointing of Jesus, and hence the word “ANTI-CHRIST……which means against the anointing, coined by the apostle John. John said that there were already “MANY. ANTICHRIST, even in his.
Danny you need to really think about these things brother.peace and love to you and your Danny……….gene
Hi Gene,
Important topic thanks for creating it!
My understanding,
Our sins are forgiven in Christ.
Christ = a man who has been born of the Spirit called to righteousness.
No other man received God’s Spirit as Jesus did being called to righteousness, we were all bound to sin and death as we are not God, we are not of our own selves righteous, He is the source.
God forgives us through Christ and what does Christ equate to, being born of the Spirit called to righteousness. If we believe Jesus was indeed Christ we are promised to become as he is, promised to be born of the Spirit called to righteousness as well.
How can God hold us to a penalty of death when He knew from the beginning that in order to be righteous we needed to be born of His Spirit?
In repenting of your sins you recognize that only God is good and we need God’s Spirit aboding in us to do good. Then we declare our belief in Jesus Christ, that he indeed was a man who had God’s Spirit come to abode in him and then we too are promised to receive the Spirit.
God brought forth times and seasons to prove to man that we need God’s Spirit dwelling in us, man can do nothing of himself.
Jesus is proof of the works of God’s Spirit and that where the Spirit is there is eternal life. Jesus is proof that God is the Source and in Jesus Christ we are to give glory to God and desire His Spirit.
@Gene
REV.19:13. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and👉 his name is called 👉The Word of God.In the biginning WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS with THE GOD, and THE WORD WAS GOD.
Révélation 19:13 show us that
He who is called Faithful and true IS ALSO NAMED “THE WORD OF GOD”
And John tells us in John 1 that IN THE BEGINNING “THE WORD” WAS GOD, NOT “THE GOD” BUT “GOD”
THE WORD WAS “GOD” because of GOD, BEGOTTEN FROM GOD. (John 3:16)
See also
👇
John.1
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of 👉the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[18] No man hath seen God at any time;👉 the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.1John.4
[9] In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent 👉his only begotten Son👉 into the world, that we might live through him.Danny you quoted……> 1John.4
[9] In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent 👉his only begotten Son👉 into the world, that we might live through him.Let’s think about that ok, Who sent his only begotten son, was it the Son who sent himself, or was it God who sent him? And in what way are we to live through him? , by him paying for all our sins, on the cross or tree. , if that were true then that would show unrighteousness with God , do you actually think God would take another person and make him pay off your sin debts? If that were the case then why do believers still die? Sense Jesus paid off all theirs sins?
Jesus did not die “for” our sin, he died “because” of our sins, he died to “demonstrate” , What it takes for us to live and gain eternal life. He did not take our place, for our sins, nor pay them off, we must by the same spirit of God repent ourselves. And over come this world just as he did, through the eternal Spirit of God.
Jesus plainly said ….. whosoever overcomes this world, even as I have overcame, I will grant to sit with me in my kingdom, “even” as I have overcame and am sit down in my Father kingdom’. Jesus here shows us that we are to overcome the exact same way he had to overcome.
The apostle Paul tell us in Eph 4:13……..>“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a “perfect” man, unto the measure of the stature of the “FULNESS” of Christ . This is telling us we must come to the exact likeness of Jesus Christ , how?, by the exact same power of the anointing Spirit Jesus had in him Danny.
Danny there is a lot to talk about on this subject I don’t want to over do it .
peace and love to you and yours Danny………gene
@Gene,
You: Jesus did not die “for” our sin, he died “because” of our sins
Me: There is so much wrong with this statement; John the baptizer says in John 1:29 “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” Don’t you also believe Isa 53 is speaking of the messiah and this “servant” was to die for the transgressions of the people, like a lamb lead to slaughter? Isn’t this the same Isa passage you claim Paul is referencing in I Cor 15:3-4 and Paul explicitly states “that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures”? These passages contradict your next statement that Jesus “did not take our place, for our sins, nor pay them off.”
To say Jesus died “because” of our sins is to call God a liar; it was God who said in Deut 24:16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, and children shall not be put to death because of their fathers; each one shall be put to death for his own sin.” If God says the innocent will not be put to death for the guilty, but the guilty is responsible for their own sin, explain how the Jesus can take on the sins of another and die for them? In Eze 18:20 didn’t God say “the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” I still don’t see how the innocent are responsible for the actions of the guilty. Even Moses tried to take on the sins of the people in Exo 32:30-34 and God tells him, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot out of My book…But on the day I settle accounts, I will punish them for their sin.” Once again the words of God say the individual will be held accountable for their sins. I haven’t found any passages in the Tanakh that say HE is sending anyone to pay the debt of sin; only that each are responsible for the wickedness they do. So Jesus couldn’t have died “because” of anyone’s sins.
Then you say Jesus’ death was to “demonstrate” what it takes to for us to live and gain eternal life; funny, “I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!” This passage literally says to repent and live; I read nothing about a man’s death as a way to gain eternal life. Highly recommend reading Eze 18.
Jodi, you said…….>God brought forth times and seasons to prove to man that we need God’s Spirit dwelling in us, man can do nothing of himself.
That’s absolutely right, Jesus said,….> the son of man can do, “nothing” of himself, And that it was God who was “in” him doing the works. This is the exact same thing that must happen to us. Just as it says, “GOD WORKS “IN” “US”, “BOTH”, To Will , and do of “HIS” good pleasure”. Why, “that God may be in “all” and through “all”.
Jesus had to receive the Holy Spirit of God to do what he did, “and so do we”. While Jesus did the Will of God through the eternal spirit, given him, we must also do the same thing, through that same spirit also. Just as it says…….> “now if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you , he who raised Christ from the dead, shall also quicken your mortal (dead) body, by the same Spirit that dwells, “in” you.”
peace and love to you and yours Jodi………gene
DT, you said…….>To say Jesus died “because” of our sins is to call God a liar; it was God who said in Deut 24:16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, and children shall not be put to death because of their fathers; each one shall be put to death for his own sin.” If God says the innocent will not be put to death for the guilty, but the guilty is responsible for their own sin, explain how the Jesus can take on the sins of another and die for them? In Eze 18:20 didn’t God say “the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” I still don’t see how the innocent are responsible for the actions of the guilty. Even Moses tried to take on the sins of the people in Exo 32:30-34 and God tells him, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot out of My book…But on the day I settle accounts, I will punish them for their sin.” Once again the words of God say the individual will be held accountable for their sins. I haven’t found any passages in the Tanakh that say HE is sending anyone to pay the debt of sin; only that each are responsible for the wickedness they do. So Jesus couldn’t have died “because” of anyone’s sins.
Then you say Jesus’ death was to “demonstrate” what it takes to for us to live and gain eternal life; funny, “I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!”This passage literally says to repent and live; I read nothing about a man’s death as a way to gain eternal life. Highly recommend reading Eze 18.
DT……WHAT YOU POSTED ABOVE ABSOLUTELY AGREES WITH WHAT I AM SAYING.
First of all the word “for”. In English can mean because of. Now let’s get the picture of what that means>. God wanted to show mankind what it takes to live right with him. Jesus demonstrated the “WAY”, to do that. The only he paid for our sin is in “DEMONSTRATING”. to us all , what is required to have a true relationship with God the father. Therefor, Jesus did pay for my sins “in this sense” , he paid for them by “by DEMONSTRATING “, to us all, what is “REQUIRED” to have a right relationship with God the Father, AND, it’s the exact same as his was.
it is in that “SENSE” , he died for the sins of the world, not that his death took away our sin. No his life and death “Demonstrated ” to us what is required of each of us , to attain a right relationship with God the father and obtain eternal life.The concept that Jesus died and paid off our sin debt himself is a “LIE”. We all must repent, and live exactly as Jesus did, by using the same anointing spirit that Jesus himself had, in order to maintain a right relationship with God the father. Jesus was our “EXAMPLE”, OF “THE WAY”, TO DO IT. Are you getting the picture DT?
peace and love to you and your DT. ……..gene
First of all the word “for”. In English can mean “because” of. Now let’s get the picture of what that means>. God wanted to show mankind what it takes to live right with him. Jesus demonstrated the “WAY”, to do that. The only way he paid for our sins is in “DEMONSTRATING”. to us all , what is required to have a true and right relationship with God the father. Therefore, Jesus did paid for our sins “in this sense” , he paid for them, “by DEMONSTRATING “, to us all, what is “REQUIRED” to have a right relationship with God the Father, and, it’s the exact same as his was and is.
It is in that “SENSE” , he died for the sins of the world, not that his death took away our sin. No his life and death “Demonstrated ” to us, what is required of each of us , to attain to a right relationship with God the father and obtain eternal life.The concept that Jesus died and paid off our sin debt himself is a “LIE”. We all must repent, and live exactly as Jesus did, by using the same anointing spirit that Jesus himself had, in order to maintain a right relationship with God the father. Jesus was our “EXAMPLE”, OF “THE WAY”, TO DO IT. Are you getting the picture DT?
IN THE ABOVE , I straightened out some of the the previous post, to better clarify what I was trying to get across. It is very important, we see Jesus as a fellow human being, “exactly” the same as we are in every way, why, so we can more identify with him on our own human level,
Remember it says, “Jesus is the first of “MANY BRETHREN ” to be resurrected to eternal life, While he is the only one resurrected to eternal life, “at this time”, he certainly will not be the “ONLY” ONE.
Nearly all modern Christianity has created a Jesus that no one can identify with, by changing his status, from a human being, to a “preexisting God” and thereby altering our “perceptions”, of him, 2 Ths 2 explains it, Showing how Satan created this “LIE” . Ask yourself, who is the only human being sitting in the TEMPLE of GOD, “NOW”, and being worshiped as a God? IS IT NOT the man JESUS CHRIST himself who sits in the temple of Gos and is NOW being worshiped as a GOD?
Our perception of who Jesus really is, is very important, especially in this “APOSTATE” age of FALLEN CHRISTIANITY.
Peace and love to you all and yours………gene
@ Gene
You write 👉The concept that Jesus died and paid off our sin debt himself is a “LIE”.👈
Me 👉If Jesus had not died for all out of love for us, to pay our debt to God, and to be our example, we would not even be able to repent of our sins, we would be lost and without hope in this world.
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that 👉 if one died 👉 for all, then were 👉all dead:
And that👉 he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves,👉 but unto him which died for them, and rose again.(2 Cor. 14,15)Berean…..What you quoted is correct , Jesus did die for all mankind, because God chose him to “demonstrate” to all mankind, What is required to live right with God the Father. He did not take our place and pay off our sins. But he did “demonstrate” and show us all what is required of us all, to be forgiven our sins by God the Father, and inter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus paid with his life, for our sin alright, by “demonstrating” to us all what we must do also, and that cost him his life. Remember what Jesussaid?…..”whosoever will save ‘his” life shall lose it, but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall save it”, we, to must all die to our way of life, and conform to the Will of God the Father, exactly as Jesus did. Jesus’ death did not remove our sin from us, that is a “LIE”, taught by false Christianity.WE must “REPENT ‘, through the renewing of our minds, by the effectual working of Spirit of the living God in us, and conform to the exactness of the man Jesus. The concept of Jesus doing it all in our place , is a LIE. Fostered by fallen Christianity. God will judge us all according to our ways, not Jesus’ ways. Therefore we need to give great heed to what Jesus told us, and do it. He showed us the “WAY” , he didn’t do it in our place, as falsely preached.
peace and love to you and yours Berean………gene
@Gene,
In post 946453 you say we are in agreement with the term “because”, except we’re not. You believe Jesus created a “bridge” between you and God in his death; but, God said I’M right here – come.
You keep talking about the terms “for” and “because” and claiming “for” can mean “because”; except grammatically, “for” introduces a purpose and “because” introduces a reason. Each term creates a separate understanding; either Jesus died “for” the sins of the world (a purpose) OR Jesus was put to death “because” of the sins of the world (a reason). It would seem the words are not interchangeable since each creates a different meaning.
So to say Jesus died “because” of the sins of man is to say our sins are what put Jesus on the cross, which means an “innocent man” took on the guilt of another (in this case the world – I John 2:2) and God said the innocent are not responsible for the wickedness of others. Paul contradicts God when he says “God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us” (is it “for” or “because”). The only part we agree on is the guilt belongs to the guilty, the sin belongs to the sinner and all will be held accountable for their sin; therefore the sin of mankind couldn’t have been the reason for Jesus’ death. What then was the purpose of his death; what did it accomplish?
You say Jesus’ life and death was to “demonstrate” how we are to live; how does Jesus’ death help anyone attain a right relationship with God and/or obtain eternal life and when did God say “death” was the way to have a “right relationship” with HIM or to have “eternal life”?
DT……The words for and because are. synonymous if applied in the right “sense”, let’s see if you are able to understand this?.
“FOR” ….. sin exists in this world, so God sent Jesus, at the right time, a prophesied person who he “‘predicted through his prophets, to “demonstrate” to all his human creation what is required to live right with him. For the purpose to “demonstrate” to us all.
1….. His intent of purpose “for” all humanity.2……What is required, of all humanity “for” forgiveness and salvation of all humanity. Which is complete obedience to God the Father , even to the point of death if required.
“BECAUSE”…..sin exists, in this world and,
1…….”BECAUSE “. God so loved the world, he sent his only (uniquely) begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him , “should’ not parish” . No guarantees there, because it requires obedience also.
2……. Jesus died , “because”. Evil and sinful men in this world murdered him.
3……Because, Jesus was and is indeed the “mediator” , between God and man. Much like Moses was to the people of Israel in his day was also, Jesus has the right and power to show and tell us all what is required of us all. And it is exactly what was and is required of him also.
These are just a few reasons of many, that the words “for” and “because” fits if applied in the right sense, in the right places. Sorry you are unable to comprehend it, but then, that’s your Huckleberry , not ours.
Peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene
@Gene,
The verse explicitly says “died for our sins”, not “because of”. What verse(s) am I speaking of? I Cor 15:3, Gal 1:4, I John 2:2, I John 4:10, Heb 2:17, I Pet 2:24, Rev 1:5. When reading these verses I didn’t find, “because of.” Besides, didn’t Jesus say he willingly laid down his life and what was the purpose (in bold for your enjoyment)?
Christ died for our sins
gave himself for our sins to deliver us
He is the propitiation for our sins
sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins
to make atonement for the sins of the people
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.
has freed us from our sins by his blood (blood shed when he died)
Propitiation: an atoning sacrifice, the act of appeasing the wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person (in this case, God), appeasing or satisfying God’s wrath for sin.
Are you sure what you believe is correct? Your reply makes absolutely no sense since it’s personal thought used to bolster your religious belief. I’m speaking of the verses where the phrase is used and the context it is used in. You then tell me I’m unable to comprehend, I’m not the one changing the meaning of the verse so it fits a belief. Sorry to burst your bubble, to die “for” something isn’t the same as to die “because of” something.
DT……Propitiation, is appeasing the wrath of God. Jesus’ life was given “for”, the “purpose of” , showing us all how to “appease” the wrath of God.
Look up the meaning of the word “for”. in the Cambridge dictionary and you will find it means for the “purpose of”, but never, “in place of”.
Jesus died for the purpose of “showing or demonstrating”, to us all how to , appease or turn away the wrath of God, from us, because of our sins, not to do it in place of us having to do it. I whole idea of a substitutionary death payment that pays off the sins of the world, is a LIE , Why , because it would show unrighteousness with God, because God said as you quoted the Fathers shall not beheld accountable for the sin of the child, neither the child for the sins of the Fathers , but each shall give account of his own sins before God. So how could the Jesus pay for the sins of another? ONLY in this way, it cost him his life, in order to demonstrate to us all what it takes to have a right relationship with God the Father. Fact is he he “demonstrated ” to us all how to live and have a right relationship with God the Father, though “FAITH” in God. Each of us will give an account of our own sin before God, we must all “REPENT” , AND LIVE AS JESUS DID, THROUGH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD. IMO
peace and love to you and yours DT………gene
@Gene,
Seriously, you’re telling me to look up what “for” means?!?!? You suddenly have an epiphany and come up with “for” meaning purpose; how about going back a few posts and actually read what I wrote. Because I said “for” introduces a purpose!!!! Then you change from “BECAUSE” to “in place of”?!?!?!? What are you doing?!?!?!
You go on to say the Jesus showed us how to “appease” God?!?!? What are you talking about!!!! You sound like you’re getting ready to offer a sacrifice to Baal. God said to repent, turn from your wickedness, and your sin will be remembered no more. Remember Nineveh in Jonah? The people, without knowing how to repent, repented and God forgave them and didn’t destroy them. Instead of trying “appease” God; try being OBEDIENT and do what HE said to do, follow his commands. What did Jesus tell his followers to do; FOLLOW GOD’S COMMANDS!!! Instead you want to follow Paul and don’t need those antiquated commands, statutes, or ordinances from God; Paul says you have “grace”; “grace” to do whatever you want because you have the Jesus who is working on your behalf to “appease or satisfy” God’s “wrath” against you.
What christianity has either missed or doesn’t know, is God created mankind out of love and HE loves his creation. Since God is our Father, that makes everyone HIS child; why do I have to go thru anyone to get to HIM; do your children go thru another to talk to you? Again, read the last two verses of Jonah and understand the compassion God has for HIS creation. God’s love is the key to everything; if you believe you need the Jesus to attain the love of God, you missed it and need to go to the Hebrew side of your bible and start reading. ANYTHING that comes between you and God is idolatry and since you believe you need a mediator that is between you and God, I’ll let you figure it out from here.
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