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On several threads I have asked for both Trinitarians an Pre-existers to show me good fruit from their doctrine. None has showed real fruit.
This is what I am looking for —
How does your doctrine change my heart? (not my mind)
How does your doctrine make Christ a more viable example for me?
How does your doctrine show the path I am to follow?
How does your doctrine protect the character of God?
How does your doctrine give me hope?
How does your doctrine change my character to be like Christ?These are the kinds of things I am looking for. If you can show me more positive results to these questions, then my doctrine, then I will switch and be an advocate for your doctrine.
martian
Doctrines don't change hearts, surgeons do; scripture is supposed to change your mind, your thinking and behavior.
You must not go by any churches doctrine, you have to rely on the word of God, the Bible.
Doctrines don't show you the path, the Bible does.
God does not need protection, we do.
Again, doctrines don't give you hope, the Bible does.
The Bible tells you what you must do to be more like Christ, not any doctrine.
The Bible should be your doctrine, not any man made doctrine. If you don't understand something, then don't be embarrassed, or to proud to ask; but be genuine and serious about it.Georg
Quote (martian @ Aug. 31 2010,07:02) On several threads I have asked for both Trinitarians an Pre-existers to show me good fruit from their doctrine. None has showed real fruit.
This is what I am looking for —
How does your doctrine change my heart? (not my mind)
How does your doctrine make Christ a more viable example for me?
How does your doctrine show the path I am to follow?
How does your doctrine protect the character of God?
How does your doctrine give me hope?
How does your doctrine change my character to be like Christ?These are the kinds of things I am looking for. If you can show me more positive results to these questions, then my doctrine, then I will switch and be an advocate for your doctrine.
Martian, By their fruits, you will know them.“By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
(And no, it's not just having buddies who agree, it's more than that), I think you and Gene and Marty, Kerwin, and any I forgot, are doing well, from what lv seen.
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 31 2010,06:44) martian Doctrines don't change hearts, surgeons do; scripture is supposed to change your mind, your thinking and behavior.
You must not go by any churches doctrine, you have to rely on the word of God, the Bible.
Doctrines don't show you the path, the Bible does.
God does not need protection, we do.
Again, doctrines don't give you hope, the Bible does.
The Bible tells you what you must do to be more like Christ, not any doctrine.
The Bible should be your doctrine, not any man made doctrine. If you don't understand something, then don't be embarrassed, or to proud to ask; but be genuine and serious about it.Georg
Baker,
Have you considered II Timothy 3:16,17?
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.The scripture is profitable.
It is profitable for doctrine, which is how to believe rightly.
It is profitable for reproof, which corrects practical error.
It is profitable for correction, which corrects doctrinal error.
All these three are instruction in righteousness.
There is sound doctrine because it is scriptural.
I Timothy 1:10
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
I Timothy 4:6,13,16
6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Since believing comes from the heart. Romans 10:9-10.
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.Mark 11:23
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
We believe or we can doubt, both come from the heart. We can change our heart by changing our thinking. We can change our thinking by choosing what we want to think.
Luke 6:45
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
We are to love God with all our heart…
Luke 22:37
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
We can choose what rules our hearts.
Colossians 3:15
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
barley
Quote (martian @ Aug. 31 2010,06:02) On several threads I have asked for both Trinitarians an Pre-existers to show me good fruit from their doctrine. None has showed real fruit.
This is what I am looking for —
How does your doctrine change my heart? (not my mind)
How does your doctrine make Christ a more viable example for me?
How does your doctrine show the path I am to follow?
How does your doctrine protect the character of God?
How does your doctrine give me hope?
How does your doctrine change my character to be like Christ?These are the kinds of things I am looking for. If you can show me more positive results to these questions, then my doctrine, then I will switch and be an advocate for your doctrine.
Hi Martian,You should drop 'your' doctrine and instead promote the doctrine of “Bible Truth”!
John 12:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat
fall into the ground and die(Jesus=74), it abideth alone: but if it
die, it bringeth forth much “fruit”=74.Luke 8:15: But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good
heart, having heard “The Word”, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.1Cor.3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for “the day”=63 shall declare it, because it shall be
revealed by fire(Heb.12:29); and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's
work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned,
he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. [“YHVH”=63 will reveal our work!] (Eph.5:13)Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (barley @ Aug. 31 2010,13:12) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 31 2010,06:44) martian Doctrines don't change hearts, surgeons do; scripture is supposed to change your mind, your thinking and behavior.
You must not go by any churches doctrine, you have to rely on the word of God, the Bible.
Doctrines don't show you the path, the Bible does.
God does not need protection, we do.
Again, doctrines don't give you hope, the Bible does.
The Bible tells you what you must do to be more like Christ, not any doctrine.
The Bible should be your doctrine, not any man made doctrine. If you don't understand something, then don't be embarrassed, or to proud to ask; but be genuine and serious about it.Georg
Baker,
Have you considered II Timothy 3:16,17?
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.The scripture is profitable.
It is profitable for doctrine, which is how to believe rightly.
It is profitable for reproof, which corrects practical error.
It is profitable for correction, which corrects doctrinal error.
All these three are instruction in righteousness.
There is sound doctrine because it is scriptural.
I Timothy 1:10
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
I Timothy 4:6,13,16
6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Since believing comes from the heart. Romans 10:9-10.
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.Mark 11:23
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
We believe or we can doubt, both come from the heart. We can change our heart by changing our thinking. We can change our thinking by choosing what we want to think.
Luke 6:45
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
We are to love God with all our heart…
Luke 22:37
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
We can choose what rules our hearts.
Colossians 3:15
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
barley
Yes I have, that is why I said, “CHURCHES DOCTRINES”.Georg
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 31 2010,06:44) martian Doctrines don't change hearts, surgeons do; scripture is supposed to change your mind, your thinking and behavior.
You must not go by any churches doctrine, you have to rely on the word of God, the Bible.
Doctrines don't show you the path, the Bible does.
God does not need protection, we do.
Again, doctrines don't give you hope, the Bible does.
The Bible tells you what you must do to be more like Christ, not any doctrine.
The Bible should be your doctrine, not any man made doctrine. If you don't understand something, then don't be embarrassed, or to proud to ask; but be genuine and serious about it.Georg
Doctrine simply means teaching. When you read scripture and form a conclusion you are forming a doctrine or teaching.
Teaching is supposed to change your heart and help you to learn the character of christ.
You can do all the right things and do it with the wrong intentions or heart and still miss the boat.Everyone here has been touting off their teaching that they claim is scriptural. So show me the fruit of that teaching.
If you have no good fruit to show then your doctrine is like the fig tree that does not bear fruit. Good for nothing.
So you are not interested in defending God's character? If a man gets up and says that YHWH is evil and hates everyone, you will just let that go?Quote (Baker @ Aug. 31 2010,06:44) martian Doctrines don't change hearts, surgeons do; scripture is supposed to change your mind, your thinking and behavior.
You must not go by any churches doctrine, you have to rely on the word of God, the Bible.
Doctrines don't show you the path, the Bible does.
God does not need protection, we do.
Again, doctrines don't give you hope, the Bible does.
The Bible tells you what you must do to be more like Christ, not any doctrine.
The Bible should be your doctrine, not any man made doctrine. If you don't understand something, then don't be embarrassed, or to proud to ask; but be genuine and serious about it.Georg
17But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.18And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
Righteous means to stay on the right path. How does the wisdom of the Trinity or pre-existenhce help me to stay on the right path. Especially since the right path is in Jesus footsteps and those two doctrines demand that I walk in another path in a different way then he went.
Quote (martian @ Sep. 02 2010,02:49) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 31 2010,06:44) martian Doctrines don't change hearts, surgeons do; scripture is supposed to change your mind, your thinking and behavior.
You must not go by any churches doctrine, you have to rely on the word of God, the Bible.
Doctrines don't show you the path, the Bible does.
God does not need protection, we do.
Again, doctrines don't give you hope, the Bible does.
The Bible tells you what you must do to be more like Christ, not any doctrine.
The Bible should be your doctrine, not any man made doctrine. If you don't understand something, then don't be embarrassed, or to proud to ask; but be genuine and serious about it.Georg
Doctrine simply means teaching. When you read scripture and form a conclusion you are forming a doctrine or teaching.
Teaching is supposed to change your heart and help you to learn the character of christ.
You can do all the right things and do it with the wrong intentions or heart and still miss the boat.Everyone here has been touting off their teaching that they claim is scriptural. So show me the fruit of that teaching.
If you have no good fruit to show then your doctrine is like the fig tree that does not bear fruit. Good for nothing.
So you are not interested in defending God's character? If a man gets up and says that YHWH is evil and hates everyone, you will just let that go?
“””So you are not interested in defending God's character? If a man gets up and says that YHWH is evil and hates everyone, you will just let that go?”””What would you do?
What did Jesus do when the Devil tempted him?
No, I would do nothing, I would separate myself from him.
God has not told me to defend Him, He tells me in his word to do good; God will deal with those individuals himself.You are exactly right; Everyone here has been touting off their teaching that they claim is scriptural. Do not the ministers of all the many denominations do the same? do they not all claim to do it by the authority of the Holy Spirit?
That is why it is so important for every one to “prove if things are so”.
Yes, one should wonder, where is the fruit? haven't things gotten worse instead of better? instead of all the preaching?Trinity is not scriptural, and can not be proven; the preexisting of Jesus (the Son) is scriptural, and can be proven.
Georg
Quote (Baker @ Sep. 04 2010,07:51) Quote (martian @ Sep. 02 2010,02:49) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 31 2010,06:44) martian Doctrines don't change hearts, surgeons do; scripture is supposed to change your mind, your thinking and behavior.
You must not go by any churches doctrine, you have to rely on the word of God, the Bible.
Doctrines don't show you the path, the Bible does.
God does not need protection, we do.
Again, doctrines don't give you hope, the Bible does.
The Bible tells you what you must do to be more like Christ, not any doctrine.
The Bible should be your doctrine, not any man made doctrine. If you don't understand something, then don't be embarrassed, or to proud to ask; but be genuine and serious about it.Georg
Doctrine simply means teaching. When you read scripture and form a conclusion you are forming a doctrine or teaching.
Teaching is supposed to change your heart and help you to learn the character of christ.
You can do all the right things and do it with the wrong intentions or heart and still miss the boat.Everyone here has been touting off their teaching that they claim is scriptural. So show me the fruit of that teaching.
If you have no good fruit to show then your doctrine is like the fig tree that does not bear fruit. Good for nothing.
So you are not interested in defending God's character? If a man gets up and says that YHWH is evil and hates everyone, you will just let that go?
“””So you are not interested in defending God's character? If a man gets up and says that YHWH is evil and hates everyone, you will just let that go?”””What would you do?
What did Jesus do when the Devil tempted him?
No, I would do nothing, I would separate myself from him.
God has not told me to defend Him, He tells me in his word to do good; God will deal with those individuals himself.You are exactly right; Everyone here has been touting off their teaching that they claim is scriptural. Do not the ministers of all the many denominations do the same? do they not all claim to do it by the authority of the Holy Spirit?
That is why it is so important for every one to “prove if things are so”.
Yes, one should wonder, where is the fruit? haven't things gotten worse instead of better? instead of all the preaching?Trinity is not scriptural, and can not be proven; the preexisting of Jesus (the Son) is scriptural, and can be proven.
Georg
I know you believe that the pre-existence is scriptural, but that is not the subject of this thread.
I want to know how the pre-existence help me in these areas.
How does your doctrine change my heart? (not my mind)
How does your doctrine make Christ a more viable example for me?
How does your doctrine show the path I am to follow?
How does your doctrine protect the character of God?
(Does your doctrine make God unfair in some way?)
How does your doctrine give me hope?
How does your doctrine change my character to be like Christ?If your doctrine is of God and scriptural you should be able to show good fruit. At the least better then mine.
martian
If you have a problem with the pre-existence of Jesus, you will have problems with his doctrine.
Jesus is the vine, we are the branches.
Branches get their nourishment from the vine, not from each other.
Branches also grow at different rates.
If you want to produce fruit, you don't look at the other branches, you go to the vine.
Since you said doctrine is teaching, I want argue with you calling it my doctrine.
The heart is what keeps a man alive, but it does not change you in any way; your thinking, and attitudes, how you feel about something, what you say, and plan, comes from your mind/spirit, it is the only invisible part of man that interacts with your physical brain; like the computer and electricity, one don't work without the other.
My doctrine comes from the Bible, it is the path I am following.
The only way I can “protect” the character of God, is to show “my” respect for him, and honor him in what “I” do and say.
Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.
What I tell you (my doctrine as you put it) is easy enough checked out, besides, I always give scripture to make my point. If you're looking to change your character, look for the same doctrine that changed mine, the Bible.
To show you “my” good fruit, you would have to know me personally; and why would you want to compare yourself to any one, you are not responsible for my fruit, or the lack of it, you are only responsible for your own fruit.Georg
George,
This is wonderful what you wrote.And you do know the difference between 'Form' and 'Nature'. It was very well outlined.
Now, how to display all that in all your posts, then you will be righteous before God.
The hope of attaining the Form of God through the actions of holding and abiding with a Godly Nature.
Georg………The branches get it nourishment from the same source as the vine does because it is part of the vine, The nourishment comes from the Water recieved from the earth, it goes up the roots and into the vine and it branches and gives it life. A branch is only an extension of the vine and can equally become a vine just as the vine it self is. It in fact had its beginning as a Branch Just as Jesus had his beginning as a human being. Trust me on this I have farmed a vineyard for over twenty years and have lived among them all my life. The branch is (PART) of the VINE , they are connected because they are one and the same. Jesus is part of Us and we Part of Him because we both are of the Human stock that GOD is nurturing by his Spirit.
Preexistences separates Jesus from themselves and they are the ones who try to cut US off the branches from from there identity with Jesus, they are Antichrists. IMO
peace and love to you and Irene……………………………….gene
To All………..Any doctrine that cuts off our (identity) with Jesus is a false teaching and should be completely rejected. Jesus is SON OF MAN Just as we are, of the same Root Stock as we are. God took this stock and nourished it as it grew and grafted us into it and the same nourishment goes to us also we are joined with Jesus By the CHRISTOS (anointing of the Holy Spirit we have recieved from the Father) this is the life force of the (COMPLETE) VINE. WE and Jesus are ONE . Do not let the false teachings of the Trinity and Preexistence (SEPARATE) you from God and Jesus our brother. All who teach preexistences will have to give an account of this evil teaching as well as the false teaching of the Trinity. They Are Antichrists. IMO
peace and love to you all………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 05 2010,01:24) Georg………The branches get it nourishment from the same source as the vine does because it is part of the vine, The nourishment comes from the Water recieved from the earth, it goes up the roots and into the vine and it branches and gives it life. A branch is only an extension of the vine and can equally become a vine just as the vine it self is. It in fact had its beginning as a Branch Just as Jesus had his beginning as a human being. Trust me on this I have farmed a vineyard for over twenty years and have lived among them all my life. The branch is (PART) of the VINE , they are connected because they are one and the same. Jesus is part of Us and we Part of Him because we both are of the Human stock that GOD is nurturing by his Spirit. Preexistences separates Jesus from themselves and they are the ones who try to cut US off the branches from from there identity with Jesus, they are Antichrists. IMO
peace and love to you and Irene……………………………….gene
I was not talking about a vineyard.Jhn 15:1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Georg
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 05 2010,01:39) To All………..Any doctrine that cuts off our (identity) with Jesus is a false teaching and should be completely rejected. Jesus is SON OF MAN Just as we are, of the same Root Stock as we are. God took this stock and nourished it as it grew and grafted us into it and the same nourishment goes to us also we are joined with Jesus By the CHRISTOS (anointing of the Holy Spirit we have recieved from the Father) this is the life force of the (COMPLETE) VINE. WE and Jesus are ONE . Do not let the false teachings of the Trinity and Preexistence (SEPARATE) you from God and Jesus our brother. All who teach preexistences will have to give an account of this evil teaching as well as the false teaching of the Trinity. They Are Antichrists. IMO peace and love to you all………………………………..gene
Gene, you are way of course.
Our “ROOT” stock is Adam and Eve; You should really pay attention what you write;
“””Any doctrine that cuts off our (identity) with Jesus is a false teaching and should be completely rejected.”””
Jesus was son of man, born by a woman, but not made by man.
“””(anointing of the Holy Spirit we have recieved from the Father)”””
Just about every preacher makes that claim, I only know of one who was anointed with the Holy Spirit.Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
“””All who teach preexistences will have to give an account of this evil teaching as well as the false teaching of the Trinity. They Are Antichrists. IMO”””
You have to deny many scriptures if you don't believe Jesus existed prior to his birth as a human; I agree however with you on the trinity.
Georg
Georg………Did you read your last text vers 6……….read it again , it says if a man abide not (IN) me. so when you separated you identity with Jesus, are you not removing yourself from him. Yes your are. The vine and the branches all recieve there life from that which flows through it. Jesus is the planting of God we are also grafted into that same vine and become part of it. there is no difference in us and Jesus. All are living by (ONE) Source. That source is GOD he is the life of the vine (Jesus and us alike)> But you preexistences don't like that , you see yourself as separate from Jesus and indeed you are by your perceptions You cut your own selves off. You place GOD over there, and Jesus over there, and you over Here. Your views separate everything. But we are called to be ONE. ONE GOD in (ALL) and Through (ALL) , One life force giving life to (ALL the VINE which includes its branches)> We are all one vine to GOD. Who tends it and purgest it to produce more fruit which he supply's through the nourishment going through that complete vine. IMO
peace and lvoe to you and Irene………………………..gene
Georg……So you say you only know ONE who is anointed right? So why did Jesus tell his disciples to not leave Jerusalem until the recieve (power) from on high and please tell us what is the comforter Jesus said He would send is. What do you think Jesus meant with I in YOU and YOU IN ME them, how is that possible if not by that same spirit anointing. What did you recieve when you had hands laid on you then? What does it mean to have the same MIND as Jesus them , is not that the mind of GOD recieved through his spirit.? Is this anointing not how the love of GOD is shed around in our hearts?
peace and love to you and Irene………………………….gene
One question from Irene to Gene!
How do I remove myself from Jesus if I believe what He Himself said in Scriptures?
He said that He came down from Heaven to do the will of His father. He had a glory with the Father before the world was. That glory He went back to. Now watch yourself how you answer the last statement. Because if you say anything else but what is written in the Scriptures, you are calling Jesus a liar…and whatever you say that he went back to……There are several Scriptures that prove that Jesus was with His father before the world was. John His Brother should know better then any of us…. And you want to tell Him you know it better? Come on, you are not in the right mind…. If I were you I would study this before I would deny it….. I, one time, was just like you, but I am considering myself lucky, God has opened my mind…..He will do the same for you if you ask Him to. It takes time to study the word of God. Not the Word written in John 1:1 mind you….
Here is a list of all the scriptures to study
Better yet go to HN t8 has a good article on it……Irene
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