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Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,08:51) Hi Jack, If the money, that was paid back, does NOT go back to the donors?
You should expose the charade of “FRAUD”, perpetuated
by the leadership of a FRAUDULENT CHURCH!Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Jack,1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Cor.6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgTerra, you said to sf, “you are not a righteous person”
Why did you say that?
Now you say “you have shown your true colors, wisdom is not welcome to the foolish ones.”… ..what? Because he said you have a big ego.
Why Terra do you say things like this?
You should get a tile for that.
Where is the moderator around here?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 02 2011,06:40) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 01 2011,13:57) They should just give him the money with no mention of it at all like they should have in the beginning. Maybe they recorded it as a donation for the church and they can't just give it back for bookkeeping reasons.
JackThe church was probably trying to make it appear as a loan so that the Pastor would not have to pay taxes on income.
If the donation is given to the Non Profit Ministry then if it is used for the church then it is tax free.
If the donator used it as a tax write off then it has to be acounded for to the IRS.
If the Church just gave it to the Pastor then he would have to pay income tax on it.
Something seems a little shakey and like maybe someone is trying to avoid paying taxes on the money.
I could be wrong but that is my opinion!
WJ
Keith,The pastor has already payed half of the money back ($7,500.00) since he resigned in January. So the board was not trying to make it appear as a loan. It was a “loan.” But now the board wants to “forgive” the whole amount which would mean that they would give back the $7,500.00 the pastor paid them. The board all of a sudden is recommending that the congregation “forgive” this after the donors followed my suggestion and made the situation aware to denominational heads. I believe that the board was chastened by the denominational heads and this is why they all of a sudden want to forgive a $1,500.00 “loan” which the congregation was not told about when they voted on calling the pastor two and a half years ago.
My wife and I are the only parishoners that know about the gift because the donors told us about it. They wanted to be anonymous. They left after the pastor resigned and so my wife and I are the only parishioners who can inform the congregation of the facts. I would not want impart this information unless the discussion gives me a solid indication that the congregation does not want to forgive a “loan” of $1,500.00.
I repeat, the board did not want it to appear as a loan. The pastor has paid back half the money since he resigned in January but all of a sudden the board wants to “forgive” it. I think this is because the donors made the denominational heads aware of it and they got involved.
I do not want to reveal this information unless I have to. It would mean that we would have to leave the church as we would feel very uncomfortable staying there. I feel sick about it and am contemplating not attending the meeting after the service. But I can't do that.
The income tax issue is another matter. I think the donors erred in giving the money to a church official. I once donated a significant sum of money to a family in the church and the deacon told me to write the check out to him instead of the deacon's fund. This way he was able to write them a personal check instead of a check from the deacon's fund and tell the family that an anonymous donor gave it and leave the family to pay their taxes.
So the way the money was given was all wrong. But what's right is right. The donors clearly stipulated that the amount was a GIFT to the new pastor so he could start out his new pastorate without being in the hole financially after relocating across two states.
Jack
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,08:51) Hi Jack, If the money, that was paid back, does NOT go back to the donors?
You should expose the charade of “FRAUD”, perpetuated
by the leadership of a FRAUDULENT CHURCH!Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I don't want your soap box Ed! Just your sincere advise. I am not happy about the prospect of exposing people. Love covers a multitude of sins. I have sins of my own. I have lost sleep over this. if the congregation is inclined not to 'forgive' the so called 'loan' I am in the unwanted position of having to expose people.I am praying that the chairman of the board will guide the discussion in such a way that will persuade the congregation in the right direction.
KJ
Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 02 2011,08:55) Jack, What will/could happen is that your church will split up over this. Right down the middle. People will leave. Iv seen it happen.
I have thought about that too.KJ
Marty said:
Quote Hi Jack: You should pray and ask God for wisdom to deal with this situation.
Love in Christ,
Marty
I am praying for wisdom. i am gathering the wisdom of you all too.Jack
KJ
this is what I would do;
make a board meeting make the members vote on what to do to fulfill the wishes of the giver ,
if all accepts the will of the giver as intended,then presented to the church meeting and make it known to all what truthfully transpired on the issue and show the reasons for the board decision to fulfill the giver wish .explain that this is a new experience and will not be repeated.
this to me should solve all things and pray to bless all .
Pierre
Hi Jack,
If you want my “opinion”, I will give it.
The problem (as I see it) is only if the church
keeps the (so called) LOAN money returned to them.As I said before: The church body intervening to call it a loan,
is “NOT the problem” if their concern was for the donors of the money.But if they were making 'a clause' to 'weasel' money for themselves, this is the problem!
You have indicated this was the case, because the money they collected,
the “loan” money was NOT transferred back to the donors, instead it was kept.Your “FIX” is a viable solution as well, but may not
address 'the problem' (as I have carefully laid out above).((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
The question you must ask is:
Is the governing body genuinely repentant?
If not, you should expose their charade regardless!
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Cor.6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 02 2011,16:04) Terra, you said to sf, “you are not a righteous person” Why did you say that?
Now you say “you have shown your true colors, wisdom is not welcome to the foolish ones.”… ..what? Because he said you have a big ego.
Why Terra do you say things like this?
You should get a tile for that.
Where is the moderator around here?
Kthis is why you complain;
karmarieGroup: Regular Members
Posts: 1786
Joined: July 2009 Posted: Mar. 02 2011,14:36——————————————————————————–
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 02 2011,09:54)
I Think God doesnt care about such things.
Its stupid, and totally centered around Man's goverment and politics.I agree with sf.
Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 02 2011,09:04) Terra, you said to sf, “you are not a righteous person” Why did you say that?
Now you say “you have shown your true colors, wisdom is not welcome to the foolish ones.”… ..what? Because he said you have a big ego.
Why Terra do you say things like this?
You should get a tile for that.
Where is the moderator around here?
You actually need to report the offending post in order for it to be actioned. Also, moderators do not read every single post, so again, reporting posts is the way it works.Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 02 2011,10:00) KJ this is what I would do;
make a board meeting make the members vote on what to do to fulfill the wishes of the giver ,
if all accepts the will of the giver as intended,then presented to the church meeting and make it known to all what truthfully transpired on the issue and show the reasons for the board decision to fulfill the giver wish .explain that this is a new experience and will not be repeated.
this to me should solve all things and pray to bless all .
Pierre
Hi Pierre,Jack's dilemma is: whether to expose the charade or not expose it.
YHVH(63) = color(63)
Your suggestion exposes it to all the members.
But [ [ [ if ] ] ] the governing body is repentant of their actions,
the best solution may be to keep a lid on their inappropriate behavior(not exposing it)!How much 'stuff' is not exposed in our lives!
Always consider yourself when giving “A JUDGMENT”!
When we repent, the truth of our sin should NOT be exposed!
Prob.11:13 A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter.Luke 1:77-79 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org …(Eccl.9:12-16)KJ.
The pastor has been treated badly in this matter.
All the money is his as was stipulated by the giver.
If God gives us salvation, then is that not a free gift?
Will God change his mind and require that we pay penance for half our sins?The board or whomever need to recompense the pastor with the money he has incorrectly paid back.
If taxes need to be paid (thanks WJ), then the pastor can pay the tax himself out of the half that he should get back.KJ, I would do whatever it takes for righteousness to prevail here.
I would start with talking to the person or persons who can fix this.
If he doesn't hear you, then take a witness or few with you.
Failing that, I would expose it for what it is.
Once he/they are made aware of the situation, then they need to restore the situation. So start off gentle and small, and lift it up a level if and every time you are rejected. You should not be satisfied until the pastor gets the gift that is his.Also, this whole mess is seems symptomatic of the unnecessary structure of denominations.
Usually they require a lot of management, oversight, and money, which leaves little time and money to help those really in need. Hopefully the pastor will see how incumbent the denomination is once he knows the truth about what has happened.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 02 2011,10:37) KJ. The pastor has been treated badly in this matter.
All the money is his as was stipulated by the giver.
If God gives us salvation, then is that not a free gift?
Will God change his mind and require that we pay penance for half our sins?The board or whomever need to recompense the pastor with the money he has incorrectly paid back.
If taxes need to be paid (thanks WJ), then the pastor can pay the tax himself out of the half that he should get back.KJ, I would do whatever it takes for righteousness to prevail here.
I would start with talking to the person or persons who can fix this.
If he doesn't hear you, then take a witness or few with you.
Failing that, I would expose it for what it is.
Once he/they are made aware of the situation, then they need to restore the situation. So start off gentle and small, and lift it up a level if and every time you are rejected. You should not be satisfied until the pastor gets the gift that is his.Also, this whole mess is seems symptomatic of the unnecessary structure of denominations.
Usually they require a lot of management, oversight, and money, which leaves little time and money to help those really in need. Hopefully the pastor will see how incumbent the denomination is once he knows the truth about what has happened.
Hi T8,Your suggestion is very comparable to keeping secret the criminal background
of a released felon. Only if the felon is genuinely repentant, should it be kept secret!What I gather from Jacks words is they are still a dangerous group (much like politicians).
And if the members are still in danger, THE DANGER SHOULD BE EXPOSED TO ALL INVOLVED!!!Job 15:34-35 For the congregation of hypocrites shall be desolate,
and fire shall consume the tabernacles of bribery.
They conceive mischief, and bring forth vanity,
and their belly prepareth deceit.Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Jack,
If you think this pastor was mistreated by “the power structure” of your church, causing him to leave prematurely, then do this in two stages.
First, attend the meeting, and let the board give him a fair severence -EVEN IF THEY VOTE “NO” ON FORGIVING THE LOAN.
After he has secured his FAIR severence, only then would I go to the gifters, the pastor, and those in power and point out that it was a gift, and not a loan.
My thinking is, if you bring this up before the severence package is secured for him, they might figure this money in when weighing out what severence to give him. They might subconsciously think, “Well, he's already getting this gift, so what more does he deserve?”
After his severence has been decided as fair, then I would go to whomever I needed, to make sure he got 100% of the gift that was given to him.
Then, after he has become aware that it was a gift, and therefore income, he can amend his tax return of that year to adjust for the gift. (Or, he could claim it this year or next)
mike
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,17:36) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 02 2011,10:00) KJ this is what I would do;
make a board meeting make the members vote on what to do to fulfill the wishes of the giver ,
if all accepts the will of the giver as intended,then presented to the church meeting and make it known to all what truthfully transpired on the issue and show the reasons for the board decision to fulfill the giver wish .explain that this is a new experience and will not be repeated.
this to me should solve all things and pray to bless all .
Pierre
Hi Pierre,Jack's dilemma is: whether to expose the charade or not expose it.
YHVH(63) = color(63)
Your suggestion exposes it to all the members.
But [ [ [ if ] ] ] the governing body is repentant of their actions,
the best solution may be to keep a lid on their inappropriate behavior(not exposing it)!How much 'stuff' is not exposed in our lives!
Always consider yourself when giving “A JUDGMENT”!
When we repent, the truth of our sin should NOT be exposed!
Prob.11:13 A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter.Luke 1:77-79 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org …(Eccl.9:12-16)
edjI never would advise someone of something I would not do or have not already done ,
the best policy is always open the wound it heals better it may hurt but it would be solved.without creating favors for anyone,
Politics in the faith stinks.
Pierre
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 02 2011,10:37) KJ. The pastor has been treated badly in this matter.
All the money is his as was stipulated by the giver.
If God gives us salvation, then is that not a free gift?
Will God change his mind and require that we pay penance for half our sins?The board or whomever need to recompense the pastor with the money he has incorrectly paid back.
If taxes need to be paid (thanks WJ), then the pastor can pay the tax himself out of the half that he should get back.KJ, I would do whatever it takes for righteousness to prevail here.
I would start with talking to the person or persons who can fix this.
If he doesn't hear you, then take a witness or few with you.
Failing that, I would expose it for what it is.
Once he/they are made aware of the situation, then they need to restore the situation. So start off gentle and small, and lift it up a level if and every time you are rejected. You should not be satisfied until the pastor gets the gift that is his.Also, this whole mess is seems symptomatic of the unnecessary structure of denominations.
Usually they require a lot of management, oversight, and money, which leaves little time and money to help those really in need. Hopefully the pastor will see how incumbent the denomination is once he knows the truth about what has happened.
t8,I agree with all that you have said except for the part about it being symptomatic of the structure of denominations. This is the action of the board of one church in the denomination. The board acted under the direction of the treasurer. So I am not sure that the board is guilty because the treasurer may not have given them all the facts. The donors dealt only with the treasurer.
I wanted to give a substantial amount to a needy family in a church I attended years ago. I approached one of the deacons and he said that I could not make the check out to the church. So I made the check out to the deacon because I wanted to be anonymous. Then he wrote a personal check to the family and told them that he received an anonymous donation for them.
This is what the treasurer should have told the donors who gave the pastor the $15,000.00. He should have received a personal check written out to him. Then he should have written a personal check to the pastor and told him it was from an anonymous donor in the church. Instead he counted it as a gift to the church and then directed the board to give it to the pastor as a conditional “loan” against the wishes of the donors.
So the whole thing was done wrong. But right is right. The donors clearly stipulated that the money was a GIFT to the new pastor so he would not be in the hole financially from relocating across state lines. The board has made it right somehwat by “forgiving” it (though it is not forgiveness because it was the pastor's money all along). At least the pastor will get the money if the congregation votes to “forgive” it. But if I sense from the discussion that the congregation won't vote to “forgive” it then I will have to speak up to see that they are made aware that it was never intended to be a “loan” but a free gift to the pastor. Things would be a lot easier for me if the donors still attended the church. Then they could be the ones to speak up. It falls on the shoulders of my wife and I because we have knowledge that no other parsishoner has.
The board does not even know that the donors told us. I agree that I must do whatever it takes for righteousness to prevail. The $15,000.00 is the pastor's money. But I don't want to implicate the whole board in case the treasurer kept the facts from them.
After the meeting this coming Sunday I will let you all know how it all went down.
KJ
Hi Jack,
In the U.S.A., the justice system calls it accessory to murder to not disclose who a murderer is!
This is “The Truth” of the matter, no matter how you try to 'sugar coat' it: you are avoiding your responsibility.The boards actions (meaning calling it a LOAN), if it was NOT meant as security for the donor,
then you are supporting their bad behavior by remaining quiet.It's like saying: “telling who the murderer is will bring the person back”.
If they are not repentant: then you “ARE” supporting their actions,
though 'YOU CLAIM' to be AGAINST THEIR ACTIONS.God has truly avenged this situation speedily, but you are showing a lack FAITH!
Luke 18:8 I tell you that [YHVH] will avenge them speedily.
Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh,
shall he find faith on the earth?Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote Hi T8, Your suggestion is very comparable to keeping secret the criminal background
of a released felon. Only if the felon is genuinely repentant, should it be kept secret!
Edj.Unlike a murder for example, this situation can be fixed if those involved do the right thing. It is always better to give opportunity for the right thing first.
There is a right way to deal with sin in the body and it is not always good to jump to verse 17 below, without first trying what is suggested in verse 15-16.
Matthew 18:15-17
15″ If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.I am merely offering this advice in this situation. KJ may already be part way through this, but I merely spelt out what to do from beginning to end. If KJ wanted to take that advice, he could find out where this situation is placed at the moment and go from there.
If it is impossible to rectify this situation, then the damage is done and I agree that it should come out into the light.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 02 2011,14:09) Quote Hi T8, Your suggestion is very comparable to keeping secret the criminal background
of a released felon. Only if the felon is genuinely repentant, should it be kept secret!
Edj.Unlike a murder for example, this situation can be fixed if those involved do the right thing. It is always better to give opportunity for the right thing first.
There is a right way to deal with sin in the body and it is not always good to jump to verse 17 below, without first trying what is suggested in verse 15-16.
Matthew 18:15-17
15″ If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.I am merely offering this advice in this situation. KJ may already be part way through this, but I merely spelt out what to do from beginning to end. If KJ wanted to take that advice, he could find out where this situation is placed at the moment and go from there.
If it is impossible to rectify this situation, then the damage is done and I agree that it should come out into the light.
Hi T8,If the church board refuses to do the right thing,
you very well may be right, the probably should all be 'fired'!
But this is NOT the issue here! The issue is should Jack expose the sin.If they are repentant, then no(Jack should not expose it)!
Let me give you “a parable”, they work for those interested!Let's say “you” know someone who robbed a bank,
If they wanted to give the money back, because they
did NOT want to be known as 'a bank robber'. If they put
the stolen money in the deposit box, and the security camera
caught a glimpse of “the person” you knew, would you turn them in?
To this I say NO, keep it secret; restitution was made(mercy supersedes justice).(different scenario) But if others found out (like you),
and he only wanted to get out of the punishment,
you should anonymously tip off the cops so he's caught!I hope this adds clarity of my view, to both you and Jack;
because we know who Jack is in my analogy; don't we?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (terraricca @ Mar. 02 2011,02:50) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 02 2011,14:47) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 02 2011,01:20) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 02 2011,13:54) I Think God doesnt care about such things.
Its stupid, and totally centered around Man's goverment and politics.
SFyou are wrong,God as his eyes focused on the righteous ,but you are not a righteous person ,so misconduct is normal for you,
everyone works with his conscience and will be judge by it ,
Pierre
Im wrong based on what???
You have a big ego.15,000 dollars has nothing to do with Righteousness you heretic.
learn some english.
SFI don't know if a answer to your comment is needed ,
you have shown your true colors,
wisdom is not welcome to the foolish ones.
Pierre
Lol ok whatever?Yupp foolish conceited people like you cant even comprehend wisdom. Totally true.
IF you know your condition dont you think its time to get some healing?
You need Jesus.
deuce
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