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Thinker………Yes indeed Trinitarians have replaced the FATHER with Jesus as You say Jesus is mentioned more times as savior then GOD the FATHER, But Scripture also say and BY GOD HIMSELF , that the is (NO) savior except ME God the FATHER, And as was thoroughly explained to you by David, many people were called SAVIORS in SCRIPTURE But there work was a work that GOD the FATHER was Doing using them as Saviors or his saving arm. Why do you think Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, but the FATHER who was in him does the work. SO now who is the real (SAVIOR)?. Jesus or GOD the FATHER, who by the way also saved Jesus and brought him back to life from the dead.
Quote David says that this argument makes him want to vomit. I cannot imagine anyone who claims to be a christian wanting to vomit because of the statement that the Savior is Divine. Thinker, first, Sharp's made up rule is all you have. That's it. So I undertand why you get so emotional when someone attacks your precious rule.
Secondly, I was not vomiting because of a statement that “the Savior is divine.” (Clever and deceiving word use, by the way. Almost back peddling in feel.) I was feeling nauseated by your illogical logic, and the fact that you feel it has any weight or merit after 3 seconds of thought.Please visit the “title confusion trick (second try)” thread if you actually believe this argument has any weight. Or, continue to ignore it and don't answer any of my questions there. Either way, people know.
david
WorshippingJesus wrote:
Quote Now give me an example where Jesus was tempted to do evil?
You do realize what “one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are” from Hebrews 4:15 means? That question is definitely voiced with contempt. The reason I voiced it with contempt is you are choosing to allow the Evil One to blind your eyes and your ears. Still, that is your choice and it just goes to show that Satan is tricky.
WorshippingJesus wrote:
Quote Jesus said Satan comes and finds nothing in him! Jesus also said that he had no sin.
Perhaps I was too quick to show contempt as I believe I now see why Satan has blinded you. It appears that you are ignorant of how temptation leads to sin and the Evil One is using that lack of knowledge to befuddle you.
The temptations of Jesus gives us a good example of temptation and the rejection of that temptation. Now if we were to replace Jesus with any other human being and any temptation then we find that the Devil, or at least one of his servants come up to her and make the offer. Jesus obey God and resisted the Devil and he ran away to come again at a later time. Our hypothetical man may instead choose to entertain the temptation if only to fantasize about it. In doing so she sins.
The difference between Jesus who did not sin and the man who did is that despite his flesh desiring to embrace temptation his spirit rejected it as unclean. This is why Paul instructed his students at Galatia to walk according to the spirit and not the flesh.
I hope I cleared up your confusion.
WorshippingJesus wrote:
Quote The Spirit of Jesus which was God was not tempted to evil!
I am going to venture the guess that we may have a different understanding about the definition of “Spirit of Jesus”. When I mentioned spirit earlier I meant “Spirit of Righteousness” and not the soul of Jesus. It is an issue that sounds worth investigating at a later time.
WorshippingJesus wrote:
Quote No he didn't. He gives no example nor do you of the Greek text debunking the rule.
I am not an expert, so I use what those who appear informed on the matter state. In this case I have heard that Grandville Sharp himself made a similar challenge to you but confined that challenge to the New Testament. It is my speculation that he most likely had a reason for placing that limit on the challenge. In other words the author of that particular rule expressed less confidence in its universality than you do. I have heard that other experts voiced more confidence in its universality than Mr. Sharpe did. I am not even sure I have enough information at hand to resolve this argument over words.
Quote (Gene @ Dec. 24 2009,12:04) Thinker………Yes indeed Trinitarians have replaced the FATHER with Jesus as You say Jesus is mentioned more times as savior then GOD the FATHER, But Scripture also say and BY GOD HIMSELF , that the is (NO) savior except ME God the FATHER, And as was thoroughly explained to you by David, many people were called SAVIORS in SCRIPTURE But there work was a work that GOD the FATHER was Doing using them as Saviors or his saving arm. Why do you think Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, but the FATHER who was in him does the work. SO now who is the real (SAVIOR)?. Jesus or GOD the FATHER, who by the way also saved Jesus and brought him back to life from the dead.
You speak half truths Gene. Half truths are falsehoods Gene. God was in Christ but Christ is the “Author of eternal salvation” (Heb. 5:9)If you don't speak the whole truth in a court of law you are charged with perjury friend.
thinker
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote They are about the Fathers buisness preaching the Gospel to the nations, feeding and clothing the poor, bringing relief to the oppressed. You do realize that the majority of those things I mentioned are done by “Christianity” which are by majority Trinitarian, don't you?
Exactly!thinker
Quote (david @ Dec. 24 2009,19:20) Quote David says that this argument makes him want to vomit. I cannot imagine anyone who claims to be a christian wanting to vomit because of the statement that the Savior is Divine. Thinker, first, Sharp's made up rule is all you have. That's it. So I undertand why you get so emotional when someone attacks your precious rule.
Secondly, I was not vomiting because of a statement that “the Savior is divine.” (Clever and deceiving word use, by the way. Almost back peddling in feel.) I was feeling nauseated by your illogical logic, and the fact that you feel it has any weight or merit after 3 seconds of thought.Please visit the “title confusion trick (second try)” thread if you actually believe this argument has any weight. Or, continue to ignore it and don't answer any of my questions there. Either way, people know.
david
David,
As it says in Titus 2:13-14 it is Jesus who gave Himself for us that He might purify for HIMSELF a peculiar people zealous of good works. Note that He does it for HIMSELF!thinker
David said to thethinker:
Quote Secondly, I was not vomiting because of a statement that “the Savior is divine.”
I think otherwise.thinker
David said:
Quote Please visit the “title confusion trick (second try)” thread if you actually believe this argument has any weight. Or, continue to ignore it and don't answer any of my questions there. Either way, people know.
David,
I visited the thread a second time and pointed out how evasive you were regarding my original question which was this:“David,
Your reasoning is circular. Show how the KJV treats “God” and “Savior” seperately. And show how Jesus could be the “Savior” without being God. And explain how you can have two Saviors.”You replied:
“I created another thread “Title Confusion Trick, Savior.” Please find your obvious answer to this question there.”
I pointed out that you did not start a thread about Christ's title as “Savior.” It was about the word “god.” Neither did you answer my question above how Christ could be Savior without being God as you say you did. You made no mention at all of Christ's title as “Savior” in that very wordy post.
That's right David. Everyone sees that you were totally evasive.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 25 2009,03:38) WorshippingJesus said: Quote They are about the Fathers buisness preaching the Gospel to the nations, feeding and clothing the poor, bringing relief to the oppressed. You do realize that the majority of those things I mentioned are done by “Christianity” which are by majority Trinitarian, don't you?
Exactly!thinker
Hi WJ and thethinker:That is good that “trinitarians” do those good works. Now if they if they were to get their doctrine straight that would help a lot towards people understanding the truth so that they would want to come to God through His provision and be saved.
Quote Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Jhn 17:6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Jhn 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
Jhn 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Jhn 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth
Jhn 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Dec. 24 2009,22:47)
Hi WJ and thethinker:That is good that “trinitarians” do those good works. Now if they if they were to get their doctrine straight that would help a lot towards people understanding the truth so that they would want to come to God through His provision and be saved.
That interesting Marty, seeing that the Majority of those that get save do so through the teaching and preaching of Trinitarians! HMMM!WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 24 2009,11:42) Quote (david @ Dec. 24 2009,19:20) Quote David says that this argument makes him want to vomit. I cannot imagine anyone who claims to be a christian wanting to vomit because of the statement that the Savior is Divine. Thinker, first, Sharp's made up rule is all you have. That's it. So I undertand why you get so emotional when someone attacks your precious rule.
Secondly, I was not vomiting because of a statement that “the Savior is divine.” (Clever and deceiving word use, by the way. Almost back peddling in feel.) I was feeling nauseated by your illogical logic, and the fact that you feel it has any weight or merit after 3 seconds of thought.Please visit the “title confusion trick (second try)” thread if you actually believe this argument has any weight. Or, continue to ignore it and don't answer any of my questions there. Either way, people know.
david
David,
As it says in Titus 2:13-14 it is Jesus who gave Himself for us that He might purify for HIMSELF a peculiar people zealous of good works. Note that He does it for HIMSELF!thinker
JackCheckmate!
They can never recieve him as God because they cannot accept him as their “Only Saviour”!
Jesus says “No man is good”! HMMM.
Yet, Jesus says he is the “Good Shephard” and knows “His sheep” and no man can pluck them out of his hands!
Unlike every other Saviour David brings up in the OT Jesus is not The Saviour by proxy.
It was his own blood the blood of God that saved us!
No other could say they could “purify for themself” a people!
The name and title tricks are created by David and others by assuming that under the New Covenant we have more than “One God” and “One Saviour” and “One Lord”.
They are simply doing lip service as you say.
I find it amazing that David insist that Jesus is “a god” yet he does not call him his god!
He attacks Trinitarians for calling Jesus God and say we are playing “title and word tricks”.
Its obvious who is playing tricks with words, it is those who say one thing but in practice they do another!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 25 2009,16:05) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 24 2009,22:47)
Hi WJ and thethinker:That is good that “trinitarians” do those good works. Now if they if they were to get their doctrine straight that would help a lot towards people understanding the truth so that they would want to come to God through His provision and be saved.
That interesting Marty, seeing that the Majority of those that get save do so through the teaching and preaching of Trinitarians! HMMM!WJ
Hi WJ:Is the gospel message Jesus Christ and him crucified or God in three persons blessed trinity? It isn't through the teaching of the trinity that people are saved.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Dec. 25 2009,00:32) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 25 2009,16:05) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 24 2009,22:47)
Hi WJ and thethinker:That is good that “trinitarians” do those good works. Now if they if they were to get their doctrine straight that would help a lot towards people understanding the truth so that they would want to come to God through His provision and be saved.
That interesting Marty, seeing that the Majority of those that get save do so through the teaching and preaching of Trinitarians! HMMM!WJ
Hi WJ:Is the gospel message Jesus Christ and him crucified or God in three persons blessed trinity? It isn't through the teaching of the trinity that people are saved.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyThat wasn't my contention!
My contention is the fruit!
When I came to Jesus, the Holy Spirit began to move me to call out on Jesus and ask him for forgiveness of my sins.
I knew that moment that Jesus was my God without anyone even mentioning the Trinity! I knew nothing of the doctrine.
All I knew was Jesus saved me! He brought me to my Father and Baptised me in the Holy Spirit!
I have never diminished Jesus to less than he was to me that day but have only sought that he would become greater in my life!
The Apostles preached Jesus!
WJ
hi WJ
why is it that you never explain the contradiction in about 100s of scriptures against the trinity,
i assume that you don't have enough knowledge to explain ,the truth ,you only have just enough knowledge to express confusion and mystery
you would be better to writeup your own bible with your words in it.WorshippingJesus said:
Quote Unlike every other Saviour David brings up in the OT Jesus is not The Saviour by proxy. It was his own blood the blood of God that saved us!
WJ,
Yes and how many other “saviors” gave His own self in His own body?1 Peter 2:24:“who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.”
And how many other “saviors” died to make a people for HIS OWN POSSESSION?
NKJV: “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.”
ESV: “who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.”
It seems to me that by Arain standards Jesus Christ is an idolater if He is making us a people for HIS OWN possession. Even if David could debunk Sharp's rule it would be far from enough needed to disprove Christ's divinity. If Christ is not divine then it is impossible that He could be the Savior who did the redeeming for the purpose of making us a people for HIS OWN possession.
WJ:
Quote Its obvious who is playing tricks with words, it is those who say one thing but in practice they do another!
Did you see how slick David is? He said that he had started a thread titled “Title Trick Savior” inwhich he answered my question how Jesus could be the Savior without being God. But his thread was not about Christ's title as Savior at all. It was all about the word “god” as it applies to Jesus and David did not even mention Christ's title as Savior. He did not deal with my question at all. David is one slick dude!Even the way David dealt with the word “god” was totally fallacious. He did a cut n paste job on trinitarian commentary for support and totally ignored how the word “god” is used in the context of John chapter one. How many “gods” created all things (Jn 1:3)?
David is one slick dude alright. He tries to make people think that his conclusions stand on the use of articles alone. David severely lacks when it comes to commenting on a statement in context. It's all about context and not just articles.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 25 2009,16:31) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 24 2009,11:42) Quote (david @ Dec. 24 2009,19:20) Quote David says that this argument makes him want to vomit. I cannot imagine anyone who claims to be a christian wanting to vomit because of the statement that the Savior is Divine. Thinker, first, Sharp's made up rule is all you have. That's it. So I undertand why you get so emotional when someone attacks your precious rule.
Secondly, I was not vomiting because of a statement that “the Savior is divine.” (Clever and deceiving word use, by the way. Almost back peddling in feel.) I was feeling nauseated by your illogical logic, and the fact that you feel it has any weight or merit after 3 seconds of thought.Please visit the “title confusion trick (second try)” thread if you actually believe this argument has any weight. Or, continue to ignore it and don't answer any of my questions there. Either way, people know.
david
David,
As it says in Titus 2:13-14 it is Jesus who gave Himself for us that He might purify for HIMSELF a peculiar people zealous of good works. Note that He does it for HIMSELF!thinker
JackCheckmate!
They can never recieve him as God because they cannot accept him as their “Only Saviour”!
Jesus says “No man is good”! HMMM.
Yet, Jesus says he is the “Good Shephard” and knows “His sheep” and no man can pluck them out of his hands!
Unlike every other Saviour David brings up in the OT Jesus is not The Saviour by proxy.
It was his own blood the blood of God that saved us!
No other could say they could “purify for themself” a people!
The name and title tricks are created by David and others by assuming that under the New Covenant we have more than “One God” and “One Saviour” and “One Lord”.
They are simply doing lip service as you say.
I find it amazing that David insist that Jesus is “a god” yet he does not call him his god!
He attacks Trinitarians for calling Jesus God and say we are playing “title and word tricks”.
Its obvious who is playing tricks with words, it is those who say one thing but in practice they do another!
WJ
Hi WJ:And I believe that you are my brother in Christ, and my desire is God's very best for you and your family.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote Jack Checkmate!
They can never recieve him as God because they cannot accept him as their “Only Saviour”!
i'M not sure how or when or by whom it was beaten into your guys heatds that “God” = “savior.”
Or that you can only be a savior or even the savior of the world if you are “The God.”Which scripture says that?
You guys keep repeating it as if it's scripture.
Savior means one who saves (and this can be in different respects.
God (as used in the Bible) seems to mean “mighty one” or something to that effect.THEY DO NOT MEAN THE SAME THING.
(You two know I have created a “savior” thread, don't you? You don't seem to want to discuss this there, yet you two make mention of it as though it proves something.)
What does Ehud being called savior prove? Does THAT IN ITSELF prove anything? P L E A S E ANSWER THIS? pLEASE? pLEASE, CAN SOMEONE RESPOND TO THIS?You guys add that Jesus was responsible for creating the world, (actually God created it 'THROUGH' Jesus, much like God is a savior “through” Jesus.) So, by saying this, it is like admitting that just being called “savior ” doesn't make one God. So stop repeating that it does.
If it does, (which it doesn't) theN you don't have to add these qualifying remarks. You can just say: “Jesus is called a savior, so he is God.”
But of course that logic is ridiculous given the others that were saviors.
Oh, but God is the only savior, it says. Well it also says he alone is holy. It says he alone is wise. But others in the Bible are called wise and holy. So, your logic falls apart. Clearly, when it says “only” wise, only holy and the only savior, it can be meaning he is the ultimate in all those things. Otherwise, the Bible would contradict itself in calling others holy or others, wise.
Check, mate.
If you guys could actually respond to what I just said (in the appropriate thread) then maybe it wouldn't be a 'check mate' as you say, but until that time, I'll just watch you work your way around those facts, ignoring them, and trying to qualify your remarks.
Why are you two afraid of discussing this in the “savior” thread? you seem to want to talk about it in every other thread. How many “savior” threads do I have to make, so you can find one of them?
all creation and all the miracles shown by jesus and other phrophets have all been by god's own work. they were all vessels through which god used his power to have things done.
nothing is done without it coming from the father, Jehovah.
if ya worship god as the only almighty god and have faith in his son jesus for what he has done for mankind by the will of his father and show your faith by your lifes actions, then who cares about other trivial things. those things don't assist in your doing the will of god.
jesus said to worship God his father as the only God and that to preach the good news of god's kingdom. get baptised to show yuor dedication to him and that we accept his son and have faith in him for what he taught and preached.
when christ was alive and healing the sick, those that came to him and had faith in him as god's son and respected his father and listened and loved only his father he said to those that they had faith and were in union to what he was trying to convey.
thats all, seems straight forward and not as difficult as one thinks.
debating is a good way to sharpen yuor skills but if your just not wanting to accept or beleive and don't care, its not even worth the time froma believer to continuwe to beat a dead horse.those not wanting to accept jesus and he knew who they were before they even would speak out to him ofr he ca n read their hearts, would say why am i even talking to you. there is a time when one must go on and try to find a receptive person and leave those not really seeking the truth for yuo accomplish nothing.
but to me i now think that even if you think that jesus is part of god as a unity of essence or common force and yuo only worship the father as the only god to worship and have faith in jesus as for what he has done and taught and your lives are focused on that and yuor actions reflect that spiritual worship and your not life is not only clouded by money and material things , then i don't think god will think less of you and reject you for you still are doing what was told by jesus.
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 25 2009,01:14) hi WJ
why is it that you never explain the contradiction in about 100s of scriptures against the trinity,
i assume that you don't have enough knowledge to explain ,the truth ,you only have just enough knowledge to express confusion and mystery
you would be better to writeup your own bible with your words in it.
tIs there any reason for your attacks?
I have explained to you that I have thousands of post on this sight explaining my view.
All you have to do is go to the Trinity thread part 1 and 2 and you can read what I believe!
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 25 2009,01:14) i assume that you don't have enough knowledge to explain ,the truth ,you only have just enough knowledge to express confusion and mystery
What do you know about me and what I know?You assume that I am ignorant for not explaining to you what I believe yet you yourself do not give me any explanation as to why you are an “Arain”!
WJ
Quote (david @ Dec. 25 2009,16:23) Clearly, when it says “only” wise, only holy and the only savior, it can be meaning he is the ultimate in all those things. Otherwise, the Bible would contradict itself in calling others holy or others, wise.
David, there you go again playing those word games. This is what you call a “title confusion trick”.According to you…
“One True God” doesn't mean “One True God”!
“Only Lord and Master” doesn't mean “Only Lord and Master”!
“Only Saviour” doesn't mean only Saviour”
The contradictions are not with the Trinitarians but with you and the Arians!
David it is not scare tactics to call Polytheism for what it is!
YHWH says…
“Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Deut 5:7
Read it again…
“Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Deut 5:7
You say Jesus is “a god” then he must be “your god” for you say he is “your Saviour!
If he is “your god and Saviour” and not “The True God and Saviour” then you have violated the above commandment!
Why do you not call him your god (theos) David?
Why do you attack us for calling him our God (Theos)?
Scriptures says he is our God (Theos)!
No playing with words just plainly accepting the scriptures without all the special pleading!
Now David I have asked you before and you have not answered!
Can you give me a New Testament example of a follower of Jesus or an Apostle calling any other being other than the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, “their Theos”?
WJ
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