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Quote (Colter @ April 05 2013,01:14) Let me guess, your not really God, but you did stay at a Motel 6 last night, right? God knows whats in my heart, perhaps he will also consider your judgement of me.
You have a narrow and closed mind as did all those who took the same position against Jesus' liberating gospel.
Colter
Colter. My still point stands.If there were no Biblical texts and other non-canonized letters and books of that time about Jesus, then how would we know about him in the first place, unless man miraculously was able to keep this information accurate and intact in oral form.
So knowing the Bible is the source of what we know about Jesus, it seems a bit rich to believe a cult that has their own Bible inspired around 1954 (or whenever it was) and is so advanced that we can basically throw away the source documents.
Um, You know what? I am going to have to say no to this one.
Quote (t8 @ April 05 2013,18:26) Quote (Colter @ April 05 2013,01:14) Let me guess, your not really God, but you did stay at a Motel 6 last night, right? God knows whats in my heart, perhaps he will also consider your judgement of me.
You have a narrow and closed mind as did all those who took the same position against Jesus' liberating gospel.
Colter
Colter. My still point stands.If there were no Biblical texts and other non-canonized letters and books of that time about Jesus, then how would we know about him in the first place, unless man miraculously was able to keep this information accurate and intact in oral form.
So knowing the Bible is the source of what we know about Jesus, it seems a bit rich to believe a cult that has their own Bible inspired around 1954 (or whenever it was) and is so advanced that we can basically throw away the source documents.
Um, You know what? I am going to have to say no to this one.
I agree, I'm simply saying that the books which make up the current Bible (there used to be more) are no more perfect then the people who wrote them relative to the times in which they were written and the various motives and historical bias of the author(s).You never did answer my question from the hot seat debate we were having, who do you concede imperfection of the RCC priest class but not the Hebrew priest class who compiled, redacted and edited the OT books?
Colter
Colter
Quote (t8 @ April 05 2013,18:26) If there were no Biblical texts and other non-canonized letters and books of that time about Jesus, then how would we know about him in the first place, unless man miraculously was able to keep this information accurate and intact in oral form.
That is an interesting point T8.Thousands and thousands of people followed Jesus around and listened to him speak. They watched him heal sick people and even raise the dead. They saw him perform more miracles than would fill the pages of a book.
Why do you suppose that nobody ever mentioned him in writing? Not even a post card to Aunt Mary about this miracle working man that they saw. No contemperary person or historian ever seems to have heard of him.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 05 2013,13:04) No contemperary person or historian ever seems to have heard of him.
Huh?
Quote (Colter @ April 05 2013,06:56) ……why do you concede imperfection of the RCC priest class but not the Hebrew priest class who compiled, redacted and edited the OT books?
Jesus vouched for the words in the OT, Colter. He did not vouch for the words of any later writers.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 06 2013,14:04) Quote (Colter @ April 05 2013,06:56) ……why do you concede imperfection of the RCC priest class but not the Hebrew priest class who compiled, redacted and edited the OT books?
Jesus vouched for the words in the OT, Colter. He did not vouch for the words of any later writers.
Mike, I feel that you are genuinely reading more into Jesus' personal opinion of the OT than is really there. We just disagree.Colter
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 06 2013,06:04) Quote (t8 @ April 05 2013,18:26) If there were no Biblical texts and other non-canonized letters and books of that time about Jesus, then how would we know about him in the first place, unless man miraculously was able to keep this information accurate and intact in oral form.
That is an interesting point T8.Thousands and thousands of people followed Jesus around and listened to him speak. They watched him heal sick people and even raise the dead. They saw him perform more miracles than would fill the pages of a book.
Why do you suppose that nobody ever mentioned him in writing? Not even a post card to Aunt Mary about this miracle working man that they saw. No contemperary person or historian ever seems to have heard of him.
Tim
LOL! That's a conspiracy theory that would require more faith then discipleship.I have a friend who proclaims that he had become so skeptical that he began to be skeptical of his skepticism on the grounds of sheer gullibility.
Colter
Quote (Colter @ April 05 2013,22:07) Mike, I feel that you are genuinely reading more into Jesus' personal opinion of the OT than is really there. We just disagree.
Colter,In John 10:35, Jesus says, “scripture cannot be broken”. What do you suppose he meant by those words?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 06 2013,18:17) Quote (Colter @ April 05 2013,22:07) Mike, I feel that you are genuinely reading more into Jesus' personal opinion of the OT than is really there. We just disagree.
Colter,In John 10:35, Jesus says, “scripture cannot be broken”. What do you suppose he meant by those words?
Mike, it looks to me as if Jesus is using their own argument against them because he uses the phrase ” your law”34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?[c] 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe[d] that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.
” If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came”…..
The context seems to be that Jesus is using their own lategiuos claim that the scripture cannot be broken against them.
We are witnessing God in debate with quibbling religious authorities.
The conclusion of Jesus exchange is that we are Allison's of God already.
Colter
Quote (Colter @ April 06 2013,21:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 06 2013,18:17) Quote (Colter @ April 05 2013,22:07) Mike, I feel that you are genuinely reading more into Jesus' personal opinion of the OT than is really there. We just disagree.
Colter,In John 10:35, Jesus says, “scripture cannot be broken”. What do you suppose he meant by those words?
Mike, it looks to me as if Jesus is using their own argument against them because he uses the phrase ” your law”34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?[c] 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe[d] that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.
” If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came”…..
The context seems to be that Jesus is using their own lategiuos claim that the scripture cannot be broken against them.
We are witnessing God in debate with quibbling religious authorities.
The conclusion of Jesus exchange is that we are Allison's of God already.
Colter
Colter.
You are suggesting that God has provided us with a book that is not to be trusted,and still wants us to seek and find.Only lately has he provided us with a trust worthy book,
and that is the ub.Dont you think that you are the gullible here?
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 08 2013,02:11) Quote (Colter @ April 06 2013,21:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 06 2013,18:17) Quote (Colter @ April 05 2013,22:07) Mike, I feel that you are genuinely reading more into Jesus' personal opinion of the OT than is really there. We just disagree.
Colter,In John 10:35, Jesus says, “scripture cannot be broken”. What do you suppose he meant by those words?
Mike, it looks to me as if Jesus is using their own argument against them because he uses the phrase ” your law”34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?[c] 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe[d] that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.
” If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came”…..
The context seems to be that Jesus is using their own lategiuos claim that the scripture cannot be broken against them.
We are witnessing God in debate with quibbling religious authorities.
The conclusion of Jesus exchange is that we are Allison's of God already.
Colter
Colter.
You are suggesting that God has provided us with a book that is not to be trusted,and still wants us to seek and find.Only lately has he provided us with a trust worthy book,
and that is the ub.Dont you think that you are the gullible here?
wakeup.
No, I'm stating that the Bible is like a series of newspapers, there is truth in it but the reporting is sifted through the minds of men with racial prejudice, political bias and limited understanding.The teaching that God wrote the Bible comes from the shamanistic priest class of religion who have used that false teaching to control men, murder it's detractors, commit mass atrocities and retard science. The same kind of “authorities” almost put Galileo to death for concluding that the earth revolves around the son.
They have theory and wrongly exploited mans superstitious fear and indoctrinated you with the fear that to disagree with the Bible is to disagree with God, to lack faith.
Some of the church officials who put Jesus to death knew the inaccuracy of the OT scriptures but they were moral cowards.
Jesus said to Nathaniel:
(1768.5) 159:4.9 “But the greatest error of the teaching about the Scriptures is the doctrine of their being sealed books of mystery and wisdom which only the wise minds of the nation dare to interpret. The revelations of divine truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow-minded intolerance. The light of the Scriptures is only dimmed by prejudice and darkened by superstition. A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense. The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see.
Colter
Quote (Colter @ April 08 2013,03:02) Quote (Wakeup @ April 08 2013,02:11) Quote (Colter @ April 06 2013,21:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 06 2013,18:17) Quote (Colter @ April 05 2013,22:07) Mike, I feel that you are genuinely reading more into Jesus' personal opinion of the OT than is really there. We just disagree.
Colter,In John 10:35, Jesus says, “scripture cannot be broken”. What do you suppose he meant by those words?
Mike, it looks to me as if Jesus is using their own argument against them because he uses the phrase ” your law”34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?[c] 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe[d] that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.
” If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came”…..
The context seems to be that Jesus is using their own lategiuos claim that the scripture cannot be broken against them.
We are witnessing God in debate with quibbling religious authorities.
The conclusion of Jesus exchange is that we are Allison's of God already.
Colter
Colter.
You are suggesting that God has provided us with a book that is not to be trusted,and still wants us to seek and find.Only lately has he provided us with a trust worthy book,
and that is the ub.Dont you think that you are the gullible here?
wakeup.
No, I'm stating that the Bible is like a series of newspapers, there is truth in it but the reporting is sifted through the minds of men with racial prejudice, political bias and limited understanding.The teaching that God wrote the Bible comes from the shamanistic priest class of religion who have used that false teaching to control men, murder it's detractors, commit mass atrocities and retard science. The same kind of “authorities” almost put Galileo to death for concluding that the earth revolves around the son.
They have theory and wrongly exploited mans superstitious fear and indoctrinated you with the fear that to disagree with the Bible is to disagree with God, to lack faith.
Some of the church officials who put Jesus to death knew the inaccuracy of the OT scriptures but they were moral cowards.
Jesus said to Nathaniel:
(1768.5) 159:4.9 “But the greatest error of the teaching about the Scriptures is the doctrine of their being sealed books of mystery and wisdom which only the wise minds of the nation dare to interpret. The revelations of divine truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow-minded intolerance. The light of the Scriptures is only dimmed by prejudice and darkened by superstition. A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense. The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see.
Colter
Colter.So you consider that story as the truth,and you believe every word they say.
You obviously dont believe that Gods word has been corrupted by man,and there is nothing God can do.
But at the same time he wants us to seek.Where can one seek God then Colter?
By sitting somewhere under a tree,and meditate as Budha?
In your case it is meditating on the ub.wakeup.
Quote Colter. So you consider that story as the truth,and you believe every word they say.
You obviously dont believe that Gods word has been corrupted by man,and there is nothing God can do.
But at the same time he wants us to seek.Where can one seek God then Colter?
By sitting somewhere under a tree,and meditate as Budha?
In your case it is meditating on the ub.wakeup.
God's spirit is within us, that's is where I seek God and his will.
Do you prey to your Bible or to God?
Do you meditate at your Bible or does the Bible lead you to spiritual perception in the Fathers spiritual presence within your own heart?
Jesus went out in nature an communed with his Father, he did not merely repeat writings of other holy men.
Colter
Quote (Colter @ April 09 2013,02:56) Quote Colter. So you consider that story as the truth,and you believe every word they say.
You obviously dont believe that Gods word has been corrupted by man,and there is nothing God can do.
But at the same time he wants us to seek.Where can one seek God then Colter?
By sitting somewhere under a tree,and meditate as Budha?
In your case it is meditating on the ub.wakeup.
God's spirit is within us, that's is where I seek God and his will.
Do you prey to your Bible or to God?
Do you meditate at your Bible or does the Bible lead you to spiritual perception in the Fathers spiritual presence within your own heart?
Jesus went out in nature an communed with his Father, he did not merely repeat writings of other holy men.
Colter
Colter.Jesus came from the father,He came down to give the light to the world.
He is the author of the word of God given to men by the Holy spirit which is the Holy bible.
So we can also have that light in us.
We have to seek that light by reading and searching,
that book inspired by the Holy spirit.No man can come to the Father but by me;
We have to go through the *WORD* to find God.
Can not find God through some other word by man.Your lips are praising God,but your deeds are against God.
Many are doing the same,praising God, but following the spirit of the world. We need to come out of this world spiritually; dont do as the world do.Be ye separate,dont get yoked with the world.
The spirit of this world is evil.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 09 2013,06:47) Quote (Colter @ April 09 2013,02:56) Quote Colter. So you consider that story as the truth,and you believe every word they say.
You obviously dont believe that Gods word has been corrupted by man,and there is nothing God can do.
But at the same time he wants us to seek.Where can one seek God then Colter?
By sitting somewhere under a tree,and meditate as Budha?
In your case it is meditating on the ub.wakeup.
God's spirit is within us, that's is where I seek God and his will.
Do you prey to your Bible or to God?
Do you meditate at your Bible or does the Bible lead you to spiritual perception in the Fathers spiritual presence within your own heart?
Jesus went out in nature an communed with his Father, he did not merely repeat writings of other holy men.
Colter
Colter.Jesus came from the father,He came down to give the light to the world.
He is the author of the word of God given to men by the Holy spirit which is the Holy bible.
So we can also have that light in us.
We have to seek that light by reading and searching,
that book inspired by the Holy spirit.No man can come to the Father but by me;
We have to go through the *WORD* to find God.
Can not find God through some other word by man.Your lips are praising God,but your deeds are against God.
Many are doing the same,praising God, but following the spirit of the world. We need to come out of this world spiritually; dont do as the world do.Be ye separate,dont get yoked with the world.
The spirit of this world is evil.wakeup.
God is good, holy men are not perfect, holy men and their writings are not God.Colter
Quote (Colter @ April 09 2013,07:45) Quote (Wakeup @ April 09 2013,06:47) Quote (Colter @ April 09 2013,02:56) Quote Colter. So you consider that story as the truth,and you believe every word they say.
You obviously dont believe that Gods word has been corrupted by man,and there is nothing God can do.
But at the same time he wants us to seek.Where can one seek God then Colter?
By sitting somewhere under a tree,and meditate as Budha?
In your case it is meditating on the ub.wakeup.
God's spirit is within us, that's is where I seek God and his will.
Do you prey to your Bible or to God?
Do you meditate at your Bible or does the Bible lead you to spiritual perception in the Fathers spiritual presence within your own heart?
Jesus went out in nature an communed with his Father, he did not merely repeat writings of other holy men.
Colter
Colter.Jesus came from the father,He came down to give the light to the world.
He is the author of the word of God given to men by the Holy spirit which is the Holy bible.
So we can also have that light in us.
We have to seek that light by reading and searching,
that book inspired by the Holy spirit.No man can come to the Father but by me;
We have to go through the *WORD* to find God.
Can not find God through some other word by man.Your lips are praising God,but your deeds are against God.
Many are doing the same,praising God, but following the spirit of the world. We need to come out of this world spiritually; dont do as the world do.Be ye separate,dont get yoked with the world.
The spirit of this world is evil.wakeup.
God is good, holy men are not perfect, holy men and their writings are not God.Colter
Colter.We christians dont worship the servants of God.
We are servants also worshipping God through his word.
We worship not with lip service,but with deeds.Conformed by the renewing of the mind.
wakeup.
Quote (Colter @ April 06 2013,04:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 06 2013,18:17) In John 10:35, Jesus says, “scripture cannot be broken”. What do you suppose he meant by those words?
Mike, it looks to me as if Jesus is using their own argument against them because he uses the phrase ” your law”34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?[c] 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Let us reason together, Colter. Let's say you're right, and the phrase, “scripture cannot be broken” was a commonly used proverb among the Pharisees, and Jesus was only repeating this proverb to imply, “well, isn't it YOU GUYS who say scripture cannot be broken?” And let's say that Jesus secretly knew that many scriptures WERE false, and therefore COULD be “broken”.If that was the case, wasn't Jesus using a LIE to make his point? And if scripture CAN be broken, doesn't it lessen the point Jesus made, since the scripture HE used to make his point might have been one of those “broken” scriptures?
And if any scripture can be “broken”, then what exactly are we to believe, Colter? Are we to read the scriptures, thinking as we go, Hmmm………… this COULD BE true, but maybe not………….. on each and every verse?
Who among us decides which scriptures CAN be broken, and which ones can't? YOU? Your UB?
Matthew 5:18
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.Luke 16:17
It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.Jesus many times said things like, “you are in error, because you don't know the scriptures”. Or, “the scriptures must be fulfilled”. Or, “haven't you read in scripture………..?”
Yeah, I'd say Jesus definitely accredited the scriptures with many words. Not one pen stroke will disappear from the Law or the Prophets, Colter.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 09 2013,09:34) Quote (Colter @ April 06 2013,04:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 06 2013,18:17) In John 10:35, Jesus says, “scripture cannot be broken”. What do you suppose he meant by those words?
Mike, it looks to me as if Jesus is using their own argument against them because he uses the phrase ” your law”34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?[c] 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Let us reason together, Colter. Let's say you're right, and the phrase, “scripture cannot be broken” was a commonly used proverb among the Pharisees, and Jesus was only repeating this proverb to imply, “well, isn't it YOU GUYS who say scripture cannot be broken?” And let's say that Jesus secretly knew that many scriptures WERE false, and therefore COULD be “broken”.If that was the case, wasn't Jesus using a LIE to make his point? And if scripture CAN be broken, doesn't it lessen the point Jesus made, since the scripture HE used to make his point might have been one of those “broken” scriptures?
And if any scripture can be “broken”, then what exactly are we to believe, Colter? Are we to read the scriptures, thinking as we go, Hmmm………… this COULD BE true, but maybe not………….. on each and every verse?
Who among us decides which scriptures CAN be broken, and which ones can't? YOU? Your UB?
Matthew 5:18
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.Luke 16:17
It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.Jesus many times said things like, “you are in error, because you don't know the scriptures”. Or, “the scriptures must be fulfilled”. Or, “haven't you read in scripture………..?”
Yeah, I'd say Jesus definitely accredited the scriptures with many words. Not one pen stroke will disappear from the Law or the Prophets, Colter.
Hi Mike,In short, the Jews still had their law after Jesus established the kingdom of heaven. Not one letter fell from it. The gospel didn't change the law, for disciples of Jesus it replaced the law
I think Jesus respected the evolutionary nature of the OT books for what they were and the mission they served.
As for Jesus being dishonest, would you also say he was being dishonest on another occasion when they tried to snare him by bringing forth a women caught in adultery only to have Jesus outflank their attempt to use the law against him by first ridding the spectacle of accusers? After all, if the women was caught in adultery then she should have been stoned to death according to the Law which you imply Jesus would scrupulously observe.
I believe that Jesus was at times frustrated that people had not studied the scripture with an eye of common sense while extracting the great spiritual teachings therein.
I did notice an interesting caveat in Matthews explanation…”disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”
The old law was respected until the new gospel is established?
That being the case Mike what we are to do is have a personal relationship with the living God, not doctrines, creeds, laws, traditions, ceremonies, rituals and the like. I think bible adherence has become a substitute for searching for a personal relationship with the living God.
Colter
Quote (Colter @ April 08 2013,18:45) Hi Mike, In short, the Jews still had their law after Jesus established the kingdom of heaven. Not one letter fell from it.
Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Not one letter will disappear until EVERYTHING is accomplished, Colter. (And Jesus wasn't saying this to unbelieving Jews. This is from his sermon on the mount. He was speaking to those who believed he was the Messiah sent from God.)
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