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theo
if you are right in your thinking,then Paul is a liar,because he talks about another sabbath that God has,
one more thing,Paul talks about gentiles being grafted to fill the void of Israelites good enough to complete the call of the 144000 .
Christians have no one day sabbath ,the christian sabbath is 24/7 there is now no way to separate secular work from godly deeds ,this is now constant,physically and spiritually.
as to the 10 commandments you should know that Christ has some it up into two,being the love for God and the love for your fellow men.
there is no more Israelite nor anything all are now gentiles or equal before God.
if you can show me other wise please do so with scriptures
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2010,05:39) theo if you are right in your thinking,then Paul is a liar,because he talks about another sabbath that God has,
one more thing,Paul talks about gentiles being grafted to fill the void of Israelites good enough to complete the call of the 144000 .
Christians have no one day sabbath ,the christian sabbath is 24/7 there is now no way to separate secular work from godly deeds ,this is now constant,physically and spiritually.
as to the 10 commandments you should know that Christ has some it up into two,being the love for God and the love for your fellow men.
there is no more Israelite nor anything all are now gentiles or equal before God.
if you can show me other wise please do so with scriptures
Pierre
Greetings Pierre…. It is not that is Paul is liar ….The issue is what did he say and what did he mean….The grafting together of Gentiles is nonsense,the elect that will make up the 144000 will be both Gentile as well as decendence from the original 12 tribes of Israel….They will chosen by God not man…..The first five address the things of God…call it love if you will,….incidently….keeping the sabbath day holy is one of them…The remaining speak to our relationship with our fellow man….Profecy dictates a return of the tribes to the promissed land in the end of days….Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 10 2010,12:54) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2010,05:39) theo if you are right in your thinking,then Paul is a liar,because he talks about another sabbath that God has,
one more thing,Paul talks about gentiles being grafted to fill the void of Israelites good enough to complete the call of the 144000 .
Christians have no one day sabbath ,the christian sabbath is 24/7 there is now no way to separate secular work from godly deeds ,this is now constant,physically and spiritually.
as to the 10 commandments you should know that Christ has some it up into two,being the love for God and the love for your fellow men.
there is no more Israelite nor anything all are now gentiles or equal before God.
if you can show me other wise please do so with scriptures
Pierre
Greetings Pierre…. It is not that is Paul is liar ….The issue is what did he say and what did he mean….The grafting together of Gentiles is nonsense,the elect that will make up the 144000 will be both Gentile as well as decendence from the original 12 tribes of Israel….They will chosen by God not man…..The first five address the things of God…call it love if you will,….incidently….keeping the sabbath day holy is one of them…The remaining speak to our relationship with our fellow man….Profecy dictates a return of the tribes to the promissed land in the end of days….
theoscriptures please
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2010,05:39) theo if you are right in your thinking,then Paul is a liar,because he talks about another sabbath that God has,
one more thing,Paul talks about gentiles being grafted to fill the void of Israelites good enough to complete the call of the 144000 .
Christians have no one day sabbath ,the christian sabbath is 24/7 there is now no way to separate secular work from godly deeds ,this is now constant,physically and spiritually.
as to the 10 commandments you should know that Christ has some it up into two,being the love for God and the love for your fellow men.
there is no more Israelite nor anything all are now gentiles or equal before God.
if you can show me other wise please do so with scriptures
Pierre
Pierre: Other than the Paul crack,(I don't believe he is a liar) this is a very on target post. You are grabing the new truth, testing it, and holding on even though it is not yet mainstream Biblical understanding.We are talking total difference between old and new covenants. Physical & Spiritual. Temple buildings to Human bodies. Dark to Light. Sin to forgiveness. Separation to Oneness.
These are the great change I have been seeing between the physical old testament and the spiritual “seeing through understanding” of the new testament.
Very good, bless you, TK
Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 10 2010,05:54) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2010,05:39) theo if you are right in your thinking,then Paul is a liar,because he talks about another sabbath that God has,
one more thing,Paul talks about gentiles being grafted to fill the void of Israelites good enough to complete the call of the 144000 .
Christians have no one day sabbath ,the christian sabbath is 24/7 there is now no way to separate secular work from godly deeds ,this is now constant,physically and spiritually.
as to the 10 commandments you should know that Christ has some it up into two,being the love for God and the love for your fellow men.
there is no more Israelite nor anything all are now gentiles or equal before God.
if you can show me other wise please do so with scriptures
Pierre
Greetings Pierre…. It is not that is Paul is liar ….The issue is what did he say and what did he mean….The grafting together of Gentiles is nonsense,the elect that will make up the 144000 will be both Gentile as well as decendence from the original 12 tribes of Israel….They will chosen by God not man…..The first five address the things of God…call it love if you will,….incidently….keeping the sabbath day holy is one of them…The remaining speak to our relationship with our fellow man….Profecy dictates a return of the tribes to the promissed land in the end of days….
Hi! ReadExd 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.
Exd 31:17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
The Sabbath never was for us. Paul also said this in
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
However if someone does want to keep the Sabbath it is fine to do so. I feel since God's holy Spirit lives in me, I shall keep every day to the LORD.
Peace and love Irene
Irene: That is true it is a choice to recognize the sabbath or not. As with all the law. One can bind themselves to the law and follow it to the best of their ability but the law won't save them. The law can't make the worshiper perfect. It never could or it would not have been replaced. Jesus made us perfect apart from the law if only we would believe that truth. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law and gave the perfection to WHOSOEVER believes it to be true. Wonderful news. This is the gospel of Jesus. We are made free from rules and
bondage. We can all be perfect in God and share love with one another, respecting and loving one another, holding each up with esteem and kindness. Learning how to walk in the healing and saving grace of God. Accepting only the fruit of the spirit of God within our temples. Peace, love, joy, happiness, kindness, sinlessness, health, et.al. are ours to enjoy. Bless you, TK
Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 10 2010,05:54) Greetings Pierre…. It is not that is Paul is liar ….The issue is what did he say and what did he mean….The grafting together of Gentiles is nonsense,the elect that will make up the 144000 will be both Gentile as well as decendence from the original 12 tribes of Israel….They will chosen by God not man…..The first five address the things of God…call it love if you will,….incidently….keeping the sabbath day holy is one of them…The remaining speak to our relationship with our fellow man….Profecy dictates a return of the tribes to the promissed land in the end of days….
Hi Theodore J,Similarly to Elisha asking for a double portion,
We in the U.S.A. have “TWO” days of rest per-week!
Sabbath day rest was not done away with! (Ex.31:13)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Dec. 11 2010,16:33) Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 10 2010,05:54) Greetings Pierre…. It is not that is Paul is liar ….The issue is what did he say and what did he mean….The grafting together of Gentiles is nonsense,the elect that will make up the 144000 will be both Gentile as well as decendence from the original 12 tribes of Israel….They will chosen by God not man…..The first five address the things of God…call it love if you will,….incidently….keeping the sabbath day holy is one of them…The remaining speak to our relationship with our fellow man….Profecy dictates a return of the tribes to the promissed land in the end of days….
Hi Theodore J,Similarly to Elisha asking for a double portion,
We in the U.S.A. have “TWO” days of rest per-week!
Sabbath day rest was not done away with! (Ex.31:13)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDjif you are a Jew then (Ex.31:13)
that verse apply,if you are a christian then it does not .
for Jews there is one in seven days for God ,so be it for them.
for Christians there it is 24/seven all you do is according to God,
this is why Christians stop sinning ,wen Jews still do 6 days out of seven.Pierre
Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 08 2010,08:47) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 08 2010,13:37) Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 07 2010,09:28) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 07 2010,16:20) kathi witch one,we have similar believes today ,why is it you want to go were there is no Godly believes but believes of men??
all those so called fathers of the early church were apostates,they sold there faith for 30 coins.
many of the true Christians were put to dead for there believe in God and his son Christ ,so they are not the early fathers of the church.
all of the fathers of the early church that is after John the apostles and a few more,were apostates.
Pierre
Greetings Pierre…..We cannot overlook the fact that the early fathers of the church were Jews and they kept the sabbitical law which included Saturday worship as well as the appointed of the holy days as per Lev:23….These were the early followers of Jesus( The Christ)….They are known to us as the apostles of christ and they practised a form of christianity that included obedience to Torah or Law,which incudes alot of what we consider Jewery today….This was known as apostolic christianty….The sole purpose of the council that convened in Nicea was to remove any resemblence of Jewery from the newly formed universal church which established Easter,Christmas along with the deification of men as saints to be worshipped…Jesus said he did not come to change a dot or a title,but he came to fullfill the scripture and prophesy…..If you read Lev:23 you will see thet the Eternal was quite clear in his decree and that was “these statutes are to be kept from generation to generation even unto forever….so far I have not found any retractions from the almighty regarding these statutes…..In closing we should keep in mind the words Jesus spoke..” For they worship in vain,keeping traditions…the commandments of men”….
Hi Ted,
When you say 'apostolic Christianity' what years did that include. Do you not consider Justin, the Martyr a part of the apostolic Christianity? He was not a Jew but was considered an early church apologist and saint.
Greetings Kathi…… Apostolic christianity started when the apostles first heard Jesus 'preach the gospel of the kingdom of God….This was a very diverse group consisting of followers from varios appointments in life….The one thing that is undeniable is the reference to the keeping of the Holydays with particular reference to the saturday sabbath,this was a clear indication that the followers of Jesus were in fact Jews first, although not orthodox as were the pharasee and scribes…When I speak of Jews I make no reference to their tribal birth rite ,I speak of their adherence to the Law/Torah of which Jesus also adhered to…My knowledge of Justin the Martyr is limited….the only thing I can say is there are no saints in heaven….those who died for christs sake are still dead and probably will make up the 144000 that will emerge from the tribulation,of which some from our church age will also survive and be spared death… When we speak of jews let us remember what Jesus said when he was asked who is a jew?….His answer was anyone who keeps the commandments is a jew….needless to say his reference was one of spirituality….IMO
Hi Ted,
Thanks for your explanation on the Apostolic age. As far as the 'holydays' in reference to the feasts, the feasts were important to celebrate throughout the generations because the feasts all pointed to Christ and the feast were a way of teaching each generation about their hope in the Messiah. Then, the Messiah comes and dies and fulfills His work and then the Pentecost comes. So now, after the arrival and sacrifice and victory of the Messiah, the feast are not pointing to a future event except maybe the fall feasts. The Jews are still celebrating the feasts as if they are still expecting the Messiah to come and totally missing the fact that He has already come. Isn't that like going to a rehearsal dinner for a wedding after the wedding took place. So, if the feasts were 'rehearsals' for an upcoming event, and then the event happened, why have the rehearsals anymore?These are just some of my thoughts on it.
Also, in regards to this:
Quote the only thing I can say is there are no saints in heaven….those who died for christs sake are still dead and probably will make up the 144000 that will emerge from the tribulation,of which some from our church age will also survive and be spared death… What about this verse:
Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’d? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
Isn't this saying that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead but living?
Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 08 2010,12:03) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 09 2010,01:28) For any and all born again spirit filled sons of God, lets hear what the spirit says of the Sabbath Day of the Lord. At the last supper Jesus said…..that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the law of Moses, in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me……Jesus!
Jesus was the fulfillment of the Sabbath day requirement of the law. Jesus is all and in all. Jesus is the sabbath rest of God. Jesus said….my father worketh until now….now, God is at rest and Jesus is at rest with God. Jesus said …my yoke is easy, my burden is light, enter into my rest and find peace for your souls….! Jesus broke the chains that bound us. Cut our fetters in twain. Released us from our mental prison.
Jesus is the new way to God. Jesus is the temple, the door, the light, the sacrifice, the Arc of the Covenant, Jesus enlightened mankind to the spirit of God, Jesus changed us in the twinkling of an eye, mortal took on immortality, Jesus cleansed us, ordained us, made us completely whole. There is one requirement, that we BELIEVE!!
We are now at rest with God. Our works are finished in Christ. No more works for salvation. No more works of the law. The law was unto Jesus. The old past away and behold all things are become new in Jesus. A new covenant with new promises. Executed by Jesus and sealed in his blood. Jesus did the works for our sinless perfection. He gave us the gift of the spirit. God bless all, TK
Greetings Tim…..There are many that hold your belief that Jesus put an end to the sabbath and all the law that encompasses it…..I fail to see how this emancipation from a command by the eternal to keep “HIS” day holy or to keep” HIS holydays from generation to generation even unto forever”…has been eliminated as a result of the sacrafice Jesus made….yet we can make holy a day chosen as a result of a decree on behalf of carnal men…who have alighned every holy day with that of pagantry…Sunday ( The sun God) Christs Mass(alighned with the winter soltice)Easter ( in keeping with adoration to Ishta )….IMO
Hi Ted,
I would like to comment on this if you don't mind…Quote There are many that hold your belief that Jesus put an end to the sabbath and all the law that encompasses it I don't know about those who believe that Jesus put an 'end' to the sabbath but I understand that Jesus is our sabbath rest and to 'keep' the sabbath is to rest, from the works of the law, by belief in Jesus. The sabbath changes from a temporal idea within time which was only a shadow of the real sabbath…a person we rest in so He can work in us, the person of Christ who is our rest.
Hebrews 4:2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but (B)the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“ÂAS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
although His works were finished (D)from the foundation of the world.4For He has said (E)somewhere concerning the seventh day: “(F)AND GOD (G)RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”;
5and again in this passage, “(H)THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.”
6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of (I)disobedience,
7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just (J)as has been said before,
“(K)TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”8For (L)if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also (M)rested from his works, as (N)God did from His.
11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same (O)example of (P)disobedience.
I think this writer puts it well:
Quote That is what the true sabbath is, to cease from your own labors, your own efforts, your own activity; to cease from your own works. “Well,” you say, “if I did that I would be nothing but a blob, an immobile inactive piece of flesh.” Exactly! Of course you would. But the implication is that you cease from your own efforts and depend on the work of Another. That is the whole import of the book of Hebrews, another One is going to work through you. This is why Paul cries, “Not I, but Christ. I no longer live, but Christ lives in me,” (cf, Gal 2:20). This was also the secret of the life of Jesus, as we have seen. He himself said, “It is the Father who dwells in me who does the work,” (cf, John 14:10). “The Son can do nothing by himself,” (cf, John 5:19). This is the secret of the Christian who learns “it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure,” (cf, Phil 2:13). So the secret of true Christian life is to cease from dependence on one's own activity, and to rest in dependence upon the activity of Another who dwells within. That is fulfilling the sabbath, the true sabbath.
http://ldolphin.org/sabbathrest.html
The author of that quote also says this about Sunday worship:
Quote That should make it clear. This is why the claims of the Seventh Day Adventists, the Seventh Day Baptists, and other groups, that Christians changed the sabbath, are absurd, ridiculous. They claim that the Pope changed the sabbath by a papal edict from Saturday to Sunday, and that around the third or fourth century Christians began to celebrate Sunday rather than Saturday, out of obedience to this papal edict. But nothing could be further from the truth. History does not corroborate that in any degree. The Sabbath has always been Saturday and it always will be. It is the seventh day of the week. Sunday has always been the first day of the week. It has never been a sabbath, and it is pure legalism to call it a sabbath or to treat it as one. It is not a day of rest or restricted activity and it is not designed as such. It is the first day of the week; to Christians, the Lord's day. The shadow-sabbath ended at the cross, as Paul has made clear. The next day was the day of resurrection, the day when the Lord Jesus came from the tomb. On that day a new day began — the Lord's day. Christians immediately began to observe the Lord's day on the first day of the week. They ceased observing the Sabbath because it was ended by the fulfillment of its reality in the cross, and they began to observe the first day of the week. This is what you find reflected in the book of Acts. Justin Martyr, who writes from the 2nd century, says,
But Sunday is
the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, when he changed the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ, our Savior, on the same day, rose from the dead.A fifth fact about this: Though this shadow-sabbath, i.e., Saturday observance, ended at the cross, the true sabbath, the rest of God, God's ceasing from effort, continued and still continues today.
Also, Ted, you mentioned that Christmas “Christs Mass” as you call it, does not fall on the winter solstice, that is a few days beforehand. Some have problems with Christmas being a replacement for a pagan holiday but like I said, the solstice was not held on December 25th as I understand but Hanakuh sometimes does begin on December 25th from what I researched last year and Hanakuh is the festival of lights celebrating the light that came and remained because of the oil for the menorah lasted miraculously longer than what would naturally occur.
We know that Jesus is the Light and that Christmas is about a story and not a one day event. We believe that life begins at conception and it is entirely possible that Mary conceived on December 25 during a feast-Hanakuh. It was at that supernatural conception that the Christmas miracle begins, but again, Christmas isn't about a single event but a story including a miraculous conception in a virgin, a pregnancy, a trip to Bethlehem, a humble birth, an angel announcement to the shepherds, their visit to the manger, and the wise men who came to worship the baby. It all didn't happen on one day but the Word becoming flesh with conception could very well have begun on Dec. 25th if you consider the timing of John the Baptist conception and birth and Mary's visit to his mother.Celebrating Christ's coming in the flesh is a response to all the celebrating at the feasts which were a shadow of what was to come…Christ's coming.
You might say that Christmas is a manmade tradition but so was Purim and so was Hanakuh. Did God ridicule Purim or Hanakuh? Did the events that Christmas celebrates not happen or did they happen? Was it celebrated by the angels, by Mary, Joseph, Elizabeth, or the Magi?
So, I suppose you can tell that I believe that Christmas is a manmade Christian Holy day, initiated by a feast which foreshadowed the coming Messiah. Christmas is a Christian response to the fulfillment of a feast and the celebration of that fulfillment. Purim was a manmade Jewish response to what happened during Queen Esther's story which saved the Jews instead of killed them and then there's Hanakuh. So there, three celebrations that were initiated by men that celebrate a holy/miraculous event. And then there is Resurrection Day, commonly called 'Easter' in some countries but has many names like Pascha, Pascua, Pasti, etc. That relates to the waving of the 'first fruits' which took place on the first day after the first sabbath after passover since back in the OT. Jesus was the first fruits of the resurrected ones. Calling the celebration 'the Resurrection Day' is a better name than Easter as that name is associated with a false goddess and causes confusion. Of course, planets have names associated with false gods and goddesses too as well as days of the week (Mars, Saturn, etc.). Knowing that…the name shouldn't keep us from celebrating the event that gave Christians victory over sin…certainly it is an event worthy of giving 'double' honor to by setting aside a special day of the year to corporately remember it as one body of Christ.
Enough for now…I hopes this makes sense to you.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 11 2010,14:35) Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 08 2010,08:47) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 08 2010,13:37) Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 07 2010,09:28) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 07 2010,16:20) kathi witch one,we have similar believes today ,why is it you want to go were there is no Godly believes but believes of men??
all those so called fathers of the early church were apostates,they sold there faith for 30 coins.
many of the true Christians were put to dead for there believe in God and his son Christ ,so they are not the early fathers of the church.
all of the fathers of the early church that is after John the apostles and a few more,were apostates.
Pierre
Greetings Pierre…..We cannot overlook the fact that the early fathers of the church were Jews and they kept the sabbitical law which included Saturday worship as well as the appointed of the holy days as per Lev:23….These were the early followers of Jesus( The Christ)….They are known to us as the apostles of christ and they practised a form of christianity that included obedience to Torah or Law,which incudes alot of what we consider Jewery today….This was known as apostolic christianty….The sole purpose of the council that convened in Nicea was to remove any resemblence of Jewery from the newly formed universal church which established Easter,Christmas along with the deification of men as saints to be worshipped…Jesus said he did not come to change a dot or a title,but he came to fullfill the scripture and prophesy…..If you read Lev:23 you will see thet the Eternal was quite clear in his decree and that was “these statutes are to be kept from generation to generation even unto forever….so far I have not found any retractions from the almighty regarding these statutes…..In closing we should keep in mind the words Jesus spoke..” For they worship in vain,keeping traditions…the commandments of men”….
Hi Ted,
When you say 'apostolic Christianity' what years did that include. Do you not consider Justin, the Martyr a part of the apostolic Christianity? He was not a Jew but was considered an early church apologist and saint.
Greetings Kathi…… Apostolic christianity started when the apostles first heard Jesus 'preach the gospel of the kingdom of God….This was a very diverse group consisting of followers from varios appointments in life….The one thing that is undeniable is the reference to the keeping of the Holydays with particular reference to the saturday sabbath,this was a clear indication that the followers of Jesus were in fact Jews first, although not orthodox as were the pharasee and scribes…When I speak of Jews I make no reference to their tribal birth rite ,I speak of their adherence to the Law/Torah of which Jesus also adhered to…My knowledge of Justin the Martyr is limited….the only thing I can say is there are no saints in heaven….those who died for christs sake are still dead and probably will make up the 144000 that will emerge from the tribulation,of which some from our church age will also survive and be spared death… When we speak of jews let us remember what Jesus said when he was asked who is a jew?….His answer was anyone who keeps the commandments is a jew….needless to say his reference was one of spirituality….IMO
Hi Ted,
Thanks for your explanation on the Apostolic age. As far as the 'holydays' in reference to the feasts, the feasts were important to celebrate throughout the generations because the feasts all pointed to Christ and the feast were a way of teaching each generation about their hope in the Messiah. Then, the Messiah comes and dies and fulfills His work and then the Pentecost comes. So now, after the arrival and sacrifice and victory of the Messiah, the feast are not pointing to a future event except maybe the fall feasts. The Jews are still celebrating the feasts as if they are still expecting the Messiah to come and totally missing the fact that He has already come. Isn't that like going to a rehearsal dinner for a wedding after the wedding took place. So, if the feasts were 'rehearsals' for an upcoming event, and then the event happened, why have the rehearsals anymore?These are just some of my thoughts on it.
Also, in regards to this:
Quote the only thing I can say is there are no saints in heaven….those who died for christs sake are still dead and probably will make up the 144000 that will emerge from the tribulation,of which some from our church age will also survive and be spared death… What about this verse:
Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’d? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
Isn't this saying that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead but living?
Greetings Kathi……I would think that the holydays are a reminder of Gods plan for our salvation and serve as direction for us….The return of Jesus is the completion of this plan and for all we know his return could very well be on pentecost…in addition Christ Jesus is not dead,his victory over death was a demonstration of the plan of God and he will come again to judge the living and the dead….As for the jews, they serve as an example that Gods law is very much alive and his plan is going just as planned…..The contempt and persecution these people have been subject to is an example for us as well…over the centuries for all intents and purposes this people we know as jews should have been totally eliminated,however,God will not let that happen because they are the keepers of the law and the coming messiah who comes from the tribe of Judah will sit on a throne that iam sure still exists although in obscurety….Kathi the generations are still evolving and Jesus is very much alive….his humanly existence ended with his crucifixion,his resurection was the beginning….God has the same plan for us…we will die physically and live spiritually….The work of the messiah was to bring us the Gospel,the good news of Gods plan for us to live in his kingdom/government and there will be no sorry,no tears…and the holydays to this day serve as the map…when you see more and more Jews embracing Jesus while keeping the holydays know that the time is near for the return of their messiah our savior…Kathi….. The Eternal said..in answer to Moses….”Iam that Iam”and that he is the same God that Abraham,Isaac and Jacob worshipped….They are dead,Iam reasonably sure they will be among the 144000 with an office commanding much authority in Gods kingdom/government here on earth…
theod.
you say;;Greetings Pierre…..We cannot overlook the fact that the early fathers of the church were Jews and they kept the sabbatical law which included Saturday worship as well as the appointed of the holy days as per Lev:23….These were the early followers of Jesus( The Christ)….They are known to us as the apostles of Christ and they practised a form of Christianity that included obedience to Torah or Law,which incudes alot of what we consider Jewery today….This was known as apostolic christianity….The sole purpose of the council that convened in Nicea was to remove any resemblence of Jewery from the newly formed universal church which established Easter,Christmas along with the deification of men as saints to be worshipped…Jesus said he did not come to change a dot or a title,but he came to fullfill the scripture and prophesy…..If you read Lev:23 you will see thet the Eternal was quite clear in his decree and that was “these statutes are to be kept from generation to generation even unto forever….so far I have not found any retractions from the almighty regarding these statutes…..In closing we should keep in mind the words Jesus spoke..” For they worship in vain,keeping traditions…the commandments of men
==========================================================you say that the apostles were Jew and that,;; the apostles of Christ and they practised a form of Christianity that included obedience to Torah or Law.;;
what about Paul ,and the Sabbath,and the circumcision,???and what Part of the law were they obedient to??? the offerings of animals??
the observation of the sabbath ;like work secular six days and one for God???
were are those scriptures ,because i have missed them.
Pierre
Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 11 2010,01:34) Kathi….. The Eternal said..in answer to Moses….”Iam that Iam”and that he is the same God that Abraham,Isaac and Jacob worshipped….They are dead,Iam reasonably sure they will be among the 144000 with an office commanding much authority in Gods kingdom/government here on earth…
Hi Ted,
I don't believe that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are considered dead, only their bodies because of this verse:Mark 12 26Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’d? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
The 'I am' is not referring to the “I Am that I AM” imo…it is simply meaning He is the God of…and that they are living.
Matthew Henry in his commentary on this verse says this:
God does not say, I was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but I am. The patriarchs still live, so many years after their bodies have been in the grave. No length of time can separate the souls of the just from their Maker. By this, God instructed Moses as to another world, and strengthened his belief of a future state. Thus it is interpreted by our Lord Jesus, who, from hence, proves that the dead are raised, Lu 20:37. Moses hid his face, as if both ashamed and afraid to look upon God. The more we see of God, and his grace, and covenant love, the more cause we shall see to worship him with reverence and godly fear.Kathi, TheodorJ,
As regarding the dead.
In those times it was believed that once a person was dead in the body, the flesh, they were dead forever.
The concept of the dead rising to an everlasting life was inconceivable.
Persons could be revived from the dead, but still died later.
Was it Elijah who raised up the son of widow, and healed the sick, in the same fashion as Jesus was later to do. Hence, in the time of Jesus they said of Jesus performing miracles, 'is he another Elijah', and, 'is he Elijah come back from the dead?'
Of course, like Lazarus in Jesus' time, those raised up still went on to die later…the 'everlasting rising' was not yet, but to come.
Kathi, you are right that the patriachs are not 'dead in the Spirit'.
Dead in the flesh…but alive in the Spirit …but not the 'glorified Spirit man' that Jesus was later to become, perfected in the flesh and called 'Begotten Son of God with power' – the first fruit of the resurrection of which many, 144,000 more there will be, and he was made High Priest in the Temple of God.So, although alive in the Spirit, the patriachs are not yet resurrected else Jesus could not then be 'preEminent', could not have been the 'firstfruit'.
Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 12 2010,19:16) Kathi, TheodorJ, As regarding the dead.
In those times it was believed that once a person was dead in the body, the flesh, they were dead forever.
The concept of the dead rising to an everlasting life was inconceivable.
Persons could be revived from the dead, but still died later.
Was it Elijah who raised up the son of widow, and healed the sick, in the same fashion as Jesus was later to do. Hence, in the time of Jesus they said of Jesus performing miracles, 'is he another Elijah', and, 'is he Elijah come back from the dead?'
Of course, like Lazarus in Jesus' time, those raised up still went on to die later…the 'everlasting rising' was not yet, but to come.
Kathi, you are right that the patriachs are not 'dead in the Spirit'.
Dead in the flesh…but alive in the Spirit …but not the 'glorified Spirit man' that Jesus was later to become, perfected in the flesh and called 'Begotten Son of God with power' – the first fruit of the resurrection of which many, 144,000 more there will be, and he was made High Priest in the Temple of God.So, although alive in the Spirit, the patriachs are not yet resurrected else Jesus could not then be 'preEminent', could not have been the 'firstfruit'.
Greetings JA…. “For the dead sleep””For the dead know nothing”…..These statements are pretty clear as to state of existance we as humans assume after we stop breathing…The fact that those who were raised from the dead in fact died again speaks to the authority and the power over death that the almighty has,however,as demonstrated we are first commited to die and after that the resurection…Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 11 2010,21:42) theod. you say;;Greetings Pierre…..We cannot overlook the fact that the early fathers of the church were Jews and they kept the sabbatical law which included Saturday worship as well as the appointed of the holy days as per Lev:23….These were the early followers of Jesus( The Christ)….They are known to us as the apostles of Christ and they practised a form of Christianity that included obedience to Torah or Law,which incudes alot of what we consider Jewery today….This was known as apostolic christianity….The sole purpose of the council that convened in Nicea was to remove any resemblence of Jewery from the newly formed universal church which established Easter,Christmas along with the deification of men as saints to be worshipped…Jesus said he did not come to change a dot or a title,but he came to fullfill the scripture and prophesy…..If you read Lev:23 you will see thet the Eternal was quite clear in his decree and that was “these statutes are to be kept from generation to generation even unto forever….so far I have not found any retractions from the almighty regarding these statutes…..In closing we should keep in mind the words Jesus spoke..” For they worship in vain,keeping traditions…the commandments of men
==========================================================you say that the apostles were Jew and that,;; the apostles of Christ and they practised a form of Christianity that included obedience to Torah or Law.;;
what about Paul ,and the Sabbath,and the circumcision,???and what Part of the law were they obedient to??? the offerings of animals??
the observation of the sabbath ;like work secular six days and one for God???
were are those scriptures ,because i have missed them.
Pierre
Greetings Pierre…..circumcision as well as animal sacrafice and multiple other rituals were abandoned with the on set of the new covenant…..Pauls reference to circumcision was a circumcision of the heart or a spiritual circumcision….It is interesting that you reference Paul quite a bit….Of all the apostles I find Paul to be dynamic and for multiple reasons,one of which was his worldlyness…..He was not only a Jew but he was also a Roman citizen…His encounter with the risen Christ speaks to a conversion that resulted in his imprisonment on multiple occasions and eventually his execution….His ministry was largely amoung the gentiles,who had little or no regard for christiandom or Jewery…Regarding the title of this thread,
From what I remember the Early Church followed the Saterday Sabbath, but also had Sunday. One example;
St. Justin Martyr
The First ApologyChapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.
Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.
But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
I think the Eastern Orthodox still do this. Saterday and Sunday.
Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 13 2010,05:17) Greetings Pierre……Start with Lev: 23
theomy questions were not related to the law;but to the practice of apostles after the gentiles received the holy spirit ,and the conversion of Paul ,and Paul teachings to all Jews or gentiles.
please respond with scriptures in the NT.
Pierre
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