Satan

[david]

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Hi David “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.” (John 12:31-33) The context of this is Jesus being crucified, 2000 years ago. Is this when you date the fall of Satan? When do you date the events of Revelation 12?

Well what does Revelation say?
REVELATION 1:10,11
“By inspiration I came to be IN THE LORD'S DAY, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, saying: “What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations”

“Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.” (John)

Luke 10;18, you mentioned:
“Then the seventy returned with joy, saying: “Lord, even the demons are made subject to us by the use of your name.” 18 At that he said to them: “I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven.”

At seeing that even the demons (or sicknesses, according to you) were made subject to Jesus, Jesus said: “I began to behold Satan [the adversary] already fallen like lightning from heaven.”
First, it seems there is a connection between the demons (sicknesses) and Satan (the adversary.)
Second, the string of events that had to occur before Satan's removal had begun. Things were on track. It had begun. Jesus could already see Satan being removed, although of course, it wasn't happening then.
Revelation indicates that would happen in the “lord's day.” (Rev 1:10; Rev 12:9)

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Also, if you read this passage carefully, you'll see that if anywhere, the “prince of this world” was on earth, not in heaven. So where was Satan cast to?

REVELATION 12:7-10
“And war broke out in heaven: Míchael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!”

I think this makes it very plain. They were no longer granted access to heaven. The scripture goes on to say that this meant great “woe” for the earth, but rejoicing for the heavens.
How can you reconcile this scripture with your beliefs?

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This is the same message as Hebrews 2:14 – “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;” Jesus destroyed the devil through his death – this is completely irreconcilable with the common view of Satan. If the fallen angel has already been destroyed, then what is anyone worried about?

Satan hasn't already been destroyed. He was hurled down to the earth (kicked out of heaven) in the “lord's day,” our time. This has brought great woe to the earth.
The four horsemen, beginning with the rider on the white horse, he fought Satan and hurled him out of heaven. This brought great “woe” to the earth, the other three horses and their riders. Satan is very angry, knowing he has “a short period of time.”

REV 12:12
“On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”

So, you suggest that the Devil (some slanderer, a human I presume) was cast down from heaven after battling, and because of this “devil,” who has great anger knowing his time is short, “woe for the earth.” ??

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Jesus destroyed the devil through his death – this is completely irreconcilable with the common view of Satan.

Jesus death made a lot of things possible and put certain things into action. Yes, “through death” Jesus “might destroy” the devil. It does not mean it was instantaneous. To choose to believe that would be to contradict other clear scriptures.

“fire alarm”??

Interesting.

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You make it sound like (the fallen angel I don't believe exists that you call) Satan engineered the whole thing – but it was God that mentioned Job to Satan (1:8), not the other way around!

In the garden of eden, the original serpent, the one called devil and satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth (rev 12:9) decieved eve into following him, instead of God. Satan wants rulership. He wants what is rightfully Gods. More than that, he claims that given the opportunity, no human will remain loyal to God. He charges that humans follow God because of what they get from it.

So when Jehovah pointed out Job to Satan.
“Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad?”
Jehovah pointed out someone who actually fears God and does so for the right reasons.

Jehovah is allowing Satan to prove his claims. Much like in Eden, it's not just humans who are involved. All spirit creation saw what Satan did in Eden. Perhaps some wondered: What if Satan is right? Should we follow God? Can we rule ourselves? Which is better.
God is allowing all of his creation to see. We are on trial. And the answer is obvious–without God, there are all the things we see in the world. WE NEED GOD.

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Quote (david @ May 22 2006,00:23) You base what you believe on Job's three false comfortors? (Job 2:9; 4:7, 8; 8:5, 6; 11:13-15; 42:7,8) No – where did I say that? Although it is true that Job's comforters attribute his suffering to God, just like everyone else in the book. The narrator himself (who you think might have understood about 'Satan', since he supposedly talked about him in chapters 1-3) attributes his suffering to God: “Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.” (Job 42:11)

JOB 4:7
“Remember, please: Who that is innocent has ever perished? And where have the upright ever been effaced?”
(Yet, we know Job
was innocent, blameless and upright according to Jehovah. These are FALSE COMFORTORS.)

JOB 8:5-6
“If you yourself will look for God, And [if] of the Almighty you will implore favor, If you are pure and upright, By now he would awake for you And he would certainly restore your righteous abiding place.”
(they were saying he wasn't pure and upright. they were wrong.)

JOB 11:13-15
“If you yourself will really prepare your heart And actually spread out your palms to him, If what is hurtful is in your hand, put it far away, And let no unrighteousness dwell in your tents. For then you will raise your face without defect And you will certainly become established, and you will not fear.”
(they were wrong)

NOTICE JEHOVAH'S WORDS:
JOB 42:7-8
“And it came about after Jehovah had spoken these words to Job, that Jehovah proceeded to say to Eĺiphaz the Témanite: “My anger has grown hot against you and your two companions, for YOU men have not spoken concerning me what is truthful as has my servant Job. And now take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job, and YOU men must offer up a burnt sacrifice in YOUR own behalf; and Job my servant will himself pray for YOU. His face only I shall accept so as not to commit disgraceful folly with YOU, for YOU have not spoken concerning me what is truthful, as has my servant Job.””
(THEY HAD NOT SPOKEN WHAT WAS TRUTHFUL, AT ALL.)

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Job says: “But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.” (Job 2:10)

JOB WAS INCORRECT IN THIS BELIEF. He made a retraction, later. He finally realized what was actually happening. (42:6)

Their baseless accusations and utter lack of empathy left Job embittered and depressed, causing him to cry out: “How long will you men keep irritating my soul and keep crushing me with words?” (Job 10:1; 19:2)
IN WHAT WAY WERE THEY COMFORTORS? They were false comfortors. They provided no comfort, but told Job that these things were happening because he was sinful. They were wrong.

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Quote he wrongly assumed that God was the cause of his calamity. He even criticized God’s way of dealing with man. (Job 27:2; 30:20, 21) And he declared his own righteousness rather than God’s. (Job 32:2) THESE THINGS WERE WRONG. Notice the words: But Job refused to turn his back on the Creator, and he humbly accepted correction from God. “I talked, but I was not understanding,” he admitted. “I make a retraction, and I do repent in dust and ashes.”—Job 42:3, 6. Yet in Job 2:10, he says in the plainest possible language that God has caused his suffering, and in the very next sentence it says that “in all this Job did not sin with his lips”.

What? I'm saying that Job retracted his belief that God was causing the suffering. A belief pushed by the false comfortors which brought on God's anger. He did not sin with his lips. His wife wanted him to:
JOB 2:9
“Finally his wife said to him: “Are you yet holding fast your integrity? Curse God and die!””
He held fast to his integrity.

I'm certain that when God (who is in ultimate control of everything) as you believe, allows something to happen, in the Bible, sometimes it is spoken of as him doing it. He is allowing it. I'll search for examples. I'm certain I'll find them.

David.

[david]

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Quote (david @ May 22 2006,08:26) For a certainty, Jehovah allowed the adversary, Satan, to cause Job's suffering. The adversary asked, and Jehovah allowed it. Men are usually not tested in such ways. But this was a special case. the Adversary believed that if he could turn Job, a man blamelesss and upright away from serving God, he could do it to anyone, and that would prove no human really serves God for the right reasons. Take away all the things he's been blessed with, thought the adversary, and he will curse God. Satan, the adversary asked and Jehovah allowed it. In this sense, God was somewhat responsible and could be said to have “brought” it on, by allowing it. This is the only interpretation that matches up with James 1:13 and the beginning of Job. Again, I'm stoked to see you say that, and other than the nature of what 'satan' was, I agree completely. God really can cause suffering – but importantly, his motive was out of love for Job, like a parent teaching a child a valuable lesson.

I didn't really say Jehovah “causes” suffering, but that he allowed it.

“For a certainty, Jehovah allowed the adversary, Satan, to cause Job's suffering. The adversary asked, and Jehovah allowed it. …Satan, the adversary asked and Jehovah allowed it. In this sense, God was somewhat responsible and could be said to have “brought” it on, by allowing it.”

umm. I'm stoked that you're stoked.

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But I'm really stoked that you agree that God can cause suffering.

God is not the cause of the suffering in the world. I believe my last post in the dattaswami section explains why suffering and wickedness exist. God has “allowed” these things to happen, much like a father allows a child to undergo a painful opperation. The child doesn't understand it, only sees the pain. God knows it is for the long term good of all, that we see that we cannot rule ourselves, that we need our creator, and that following ourselves or human governments as the answer, leads to the world we see today.

david.

[david]

When Satan afflicts Job with sores, Job says to his wife, “Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” (Job 2:10)
The writer calls these satanic sores “the evil that the Lord had brought upon him” (Job 42:11).
Satan brings misery. But Satan is not ultimate or decisive. He is on a leash. He goes no farther than God decisively permits.
We remember that the first time Jehovah “allowed” satan this: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only against him himself do not thrust out your hand!”

So Jehovah restricted what Satan could do to him. Jehovah was allowing this to take place.

Then, Satan made a further charge:
“Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul. For a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch as far as his bone and his flesh [and see] whether he will not curse you to your very face.”
“Accordingly Jehovah said to Satan: “There he is in your hand! Only watch out for his soul itself!”

It's interesting that Satan says: thrust out 'your' hand, and he will curse you. Then Jehovah says: There he is in YOUR hand. Only watch out for his soul, or life. Don't kill him.

Jehovah was in control of this, but he wasn't the cause of it. It could be said that he “brought” these things on Job, in that he allowed Satan to inflict them upon Job.

Similarly, Jesus died a torturous death. Jehovah didn't cause this. He allowed it, because it had to happen. And Jehovah was not the reason it had to happen. The one who deceived eve was the one began us down this path. Jehovah has lovingly allowed the this to be corrected in this way because of his sense of justice and love. He allowed it.

[david]

Think of a judge who pronounces a just sentence upon a criminal. The convict may suffer considerably while he serves out his sentence, but can he rightly blame the judge for being the cause of his suffering?

[Sammo]

Quote (david @ May 25 2006,04:19)

Quote Hi David “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.” (John 12:31-33) The context of this is Jesus being crucified, 2000 years ago. Is this when you date the fall of Satan? When do you date the events of Revelation 12? Well what does Revelation say? REVELATION 1:10,11 “By inspiration I came to be IN THE LORD'S DAY, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, saying: “What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations” “Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.” (John) Luke 10;18, you mentioned: “Then the seventy returned with joy, saying: “Lord, even the demons are made subject to us by the use of your name.” 18 At that he said to them: “I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven.” At seeing that even the demons (or sicknesses, according to you) were made subject to Jesus, Jesus said: “I began to behold Satan [the adversary] already fallen like lightning from heaven.” First, it seems there is a connection between the demons (sicknesses) and Satan (the adversary.) Second, the string of events that had to occur before Satan's removal had begun. Things were on track. It had begun. Jesus could already see Satan being removed, although of course, it wasn't happening then. Revelation indicates that would happen in the “lord's day.” (Rev 1:10; Rev 12:9)

Hi David

I'm not sure if we're both on the same page here. Luke 10:18 doesn't say “I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven”; it says “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven”. Big difference.

The context of the statement in John 12 was the crucifixion of Jesus – that was when the “prince of the world” was going to be cast out.

Luke 10:18 definitely happened sometime around 30 AD. The time described in John 12 (when Jesus was put to death) definitely happened just afterwards. I'm pretty sure you believe Revelation 12:9 to have taken place in 1914, my apologies if I'm misrepresenting you there.

So when was the devil cast of heaven really? It doesn't add up to me.

[Sammo]

Quote (david @ May 25 2006,04:19)

Quote This is the same message as Hebrews 2:14 – “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;“ Jesus destroyed the devil through his death – this is completely irreconcilable with the common view of Satan. If the fallen angel has already been destroyed, then what is anyone worried about? Satan hasn't already been destroyed.

This is worth some further explanation, I think…

[Sammo]

Quote (david @ May 25 2006,04:19)

Quote You make it sound like (the fallen angel I don't believe exists that you call) Satan engineered the whole thing – but it was God that mentioned Job to Satan (1:8), not the other way around! In the garden of eden, the original serpent, the one called devil and satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth (rev 12:9) decieved eve into following him, instead of God. Satan wants rulership. He wants what is rightfully Gods. More than that, he claims that given the opportunity, no human will remain loyal to God. He charges that humans follow God because of what they get from it.

Do you believe that the serpent in Genesis 3 was literally Satan? Have you thought about the futility of the curse?

“And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:” (Gen 3:14)

Quote (david @ May 25 2006,04:19)

JOB 4:7 “Remember, please: Who that is innocent has ever perished? And where have the upright ever been effaced?” (Yet, we know Job was innocent, blameless and upright according to Jehovah. These are FALSE COMFORTORS.) JOB 8:5-6 “If you yourself will look for God, And [if] of the Almighty you will implore favor, If you are pure and upright, By now he would awake for you And he would certainly restore your righteous abiding place.” (they were saying he wasn't pure and upright. they were wrong.) JOB 11:13-15 “If you yourself will really prepare your heart And actually spread out your palms to him, If what is hurtful is in your hand, put it far away, And let no unrighteousness dwell in your tents. For then you will raise your face without defect And you will certainly become established, and you will not fear.” (they were wrong) NOTICE JEHOVAH'S WORDS: JOB 42:7-8 “And it came about after Jehovah had spoken these words to Job, that Jehovah proceeded to say to Eĺiphaz the Témanite: “My anger has grown hot against you and your two companions, for YOU men have not spoken concerning me what is truthful as has my servant Job. And now take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job, and YOU men must offer up a burnt sacrifice in YOUR own behalf; and Job my servant will himself pray for YOU. His face only I shall accept so as not to commit disgraceful folly with YOU, for YOU have not spoken concerning me what is truthful, as has my servant Job.”” (THEY HAD NOT SPOKEN WHAT WAS TRUTHFUL, AT ALL.)

Well, so what? I already said that I wasn't basing this on what the false comforters say. I'm still not

Quote (david @ May 25 2006,04:19)

Quote Job says: “But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.” (Job 2:10) JOB WAS INCORRECT IN THIS BELIEF. He made a retraction, later. He finally realized what was actually happening. (42:6)

But David, read what it says: “In all this Job did not sin with his lips”. It was OK for Job to attribute his suffering to God, that's the simple bottom line.

That wasn't the lesson Job had to learn – the lesson was whether or not it was just for God to cause that suffering.

Quote (david @ May 25 2006,04:19)

Quote Yet in Job 2:10, he says in the plainest possible language that God has caused his suffering, and in the very next sentence it says that “in all this Job did not sin with his lips”. What? I'm saying that Job retracted his belief that God was causing the suffering. A belief pushed by the false comfortors which brought on God's anger. He did not sin with his lips. His wife wanted him to: JOB 2:9 “Finally his wife said to him: “Are you yet holding fast your integrity? Curse God and die!”” He held fast to his integrity. I'm certain that when God (who is in ultimate control of everything) as you believe, allows something to happen, in the Bible, sometimes it is spoken of as him doing it. He is allowing it. I'll search for examples. I'm certain I'll find them.

Job says that God has caused his suffering (Job 2:10).
Job did not sin by saying that God caused his suffering (Job 2:10).
It's not that tricky!

If the message of Job was to show that Satan causes suffering, and not God, do you really think that we would read in the very closing verses:

“Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.”

God bless
Sam

[Sammo]

Quote (david @ May 25 2006,04:53)

Similarly, Jesus died a torturous death. Jehovah didn't cause this. He allowed it, because it had to happen. And Jehovah was not the reason it had to happen. The one who deceived eve was the one began us down this path. Jehovah has lovingly allowed the this to be corrected in this way because of his sense of justice and love. He allowed it.

“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.” (Isa 53:10)

“He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.” (Matt 26:42)

[Sammo]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 23 2006,02:34)

Hi Sammo, hope life is good for you atm. I think NH has actually raised a valid point in pointing out that, although Revelation is a coded book (400 verses and 800 allusions to the OT I have been led to believe!), some symbols are actually explained in the book itself. And the star/angels idiom is one of those (Rev 1:20, 9:1). I think the fact Yahshua actually assigns this associated meaning in Revelation 1:20, and the fact that a star is personified in Rev 9:1 is weighty evidence that the stars in Re 12:4 should be taken to mean literal angels. And Job 38:7, Daniel 8:10 and Isaiah 14:12 adds credence to this explanation IMHO. Although these passages have allegories in them too! But just because a passage is symbolic (as Rev 12:1-4 manifestly is) doesn't mean the individual symbols are undecipherable. Right? I think it's okay to be disagree with someones interpretation, as long as you can supply an equally or more plausable explanation yourself. What do you think the stars in Rev 12:4 represent? In Rev 12:9 Satan is said to decieve the whole world and as a consequence are thrown down to earth with his angels. So the language in Rev 12 appears to switch from figurative 'stars' to literal 'angels'. And this of course raises the question; if Satan isn't a real pesonage why are “angels” being thrown down to earth with “him”? This makes no sense unless you attribute personhood to both entities. Blessings friend.

Hi Is 1:18

What you say about angels sounds plausible on the surface, but stars have several different uses in scripture – in Joseph's dream they represent his brothers, for instance. I'd need to give that a bit more thought.

The key to understanding Revelation 12 begins in Daniel 7. Because of this link I see the dragon as referring to pagan Rome – it has nothing at all to do with a fallen angel. Since it's hard to fit pagan Rome with having angels, I'd have difficulty seeing the stars that way.

Did you know that that was the accepted interpretation (by basically everyone) of Rev 12 for well over a thousand years? There's a page on this that I'd love to point you to, but seems to be down at the moment – but this is good too:

http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=6817

God bless
Sam

[david]

Hi Sammo,

ON LUKE 10:18,

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Luke 10:18 definitely happened sometime around 30 AD. The time described in John 12 (when Jesus was put to death) definitely happened just afterwards.

Ok, we have 4 references to the “ruler of the [or “this”] world.” (Also see Eph 2:2)
One of these references says:
JOHN 12:31
“Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.”

Looking at Revelation, by inspiration, John came to be in the “Lord's day.”
And there, we see Satan (the adversary) being cast out of heaven.

So?

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So when was the devil cast of heaven really? It doesn't add up to me.

REVELATION 1:1
“A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,”

REVELATION 1:10
“By inspiration I [John] came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet,”

REVELATION 12:9
“So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.”

REVELATION 12:12
“On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.””

I believe that in the last hundred years, a relatively “short period of time,” great woe has been brought to the earth. Satan is angry. He knows his time is up. We have always had wars. But we haven't always had world wars, as an example.

It does add up.

At first, it may seem that Jesus was referring to an event that had already taken place. Yet, 60 years after Jesus uttered the above words, the aged apostle John employed similar language, writing: “Down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.”—Revelation 12:9.

When John penned those words, Satan still resided in heaven. How do we know? Because Revelation is a book of prophecy, not history. (Revelation 1:1) Hence, as of John’s day, Satan had not yet been cast down to earth.

It seems that Jesus was rejoicing with his disciples and referring to Satan’s future demise. More than any of his disciples, Jesus was well aware of the vicious animosity of the Devil. Imagine the joy Jesus felt at hearing that the powerful demons were being made subject to his imperfect human disciples! This subjugation of the demons was just a foregleam of the future day he would battle with Satan and cast him from heaven to earth.

When Jesus said that he beheld Satan “already fallen,” he was evidently underscoring the certainty of Satan’s fall. This is similar to other Bible prophecies that speak of future events in the past tense. For example, note the mixing of past and future tenses in the prophecy concerning the Messiah at Isaiah 52:13–53:12. Jesus likely was expressing confidence that Satan’s ouster from heaven would take place according to His Father’s purpose. Jesus was also certain that in God’s due time, Satan and his demons would be abyssed and later destroyed once and for all.—Romans 16:20; Hebrews 2:14; Revelation 20:1-3, 7-10.

****

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Do you believe that the serpent in Genesis 3 was literally Satan?

I believe this scripture:
REVELATION 12:9
“So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth;”

hmmm. “the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan.” Ok, looking at this your way:
“the original serpent, the one called slanderer and resister.”
This slanderer and opposer has been misleading the entire inhabited earth. I'm still unclear as to how you understand this. Is it a human?

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Do you believe that the serpent in Genesis 3 was literally Satan? Have you thought about the futility of the curse? “And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:” (Gen 3:14)

Yes, the serpent was cursed.
But notice the next verse:
GENESIS 3:15
“And I [God] shall put enmity between you [satan] and the woman [Jehovah's heavenly organization, Rev 12:1,4] and between your [Satan's] seed and her seed [primarily Jesus]. He will bruise you in the head [deathblow for Satan] and you will bruise him in the heel [Jesus on stake].””

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Well, so what? I already said that I wasn't basing this on what the false comforters say. I'm still not

Maybe, and maybe not, but now, you're calling them “false comfortors,” and not comfortors. Interesting.
I'll have to go back and check, but I really had thought you were basing things on what they were saying.

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Quote (david @ May 25 2006,04:19) Quote Job says: “But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.” (Job 2:10) JOB WAS INCORRECT IN THIS BELIEF. He made a retraction, later. He finally realized what was actually happening. (42:6) But David, read what it says: “In all this Job did not sin with his lips”. It was OK for Job to attribute his suffering to God, that's the simple bottom line.

Job didn't sin with his lips. Lying is when you say something you know is untrue. Job was not understanding. He had his wife telling him to curse God and die. Everything he had was taken from him, except his life. He had these false comfortors putting the idea in his head that he was sinful and deserving of these things from God.
The people that believed the earth was flat, were they sinning by believing this? Many people in Job's situation would have been cursing God. Job, didn't. He didn't sin with his lips. True, he was misunderstanding what was happening to him. But that was not a sin.

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But David, read what it says: “In all this Job did not sin with his lips”. It was OK for Job to attribute his suffering to God, that's the simple bottom line.

“shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.” (Job 2:10)
I take the “all this” to be the sores that are described in the verse before and all the other things brought upon him that his wanted him to curse God for. “In all this” Job did not sin with his lips. I do not think the one sentence before: “shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not recieve evil,” is the “all this” that it is referring to. A LOT of things were brought upon Job. And yet, he did not sin with his lips. He did make the mistake of misunderstanding who was behind the things that were happening to him. He falsely believed it was God, and yet, “in all this,” he didn't sin with his lips. Amazing intergrity!

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Job says that God has caused his suffering (Job 2:10). Job did not sin by saying that God caused his suffering (Job 2:10). It's not that tricky!

No, Job did not sin “in all this,” it says. It doesn't say he didn't sin in saying the statement before. Remember that the statement about God before was in effect Job defending God.
The verse before, Even HIS VERY WIFE was telling him to curse God. (This certainly would be a sin.) Yet, Job did not sin with his lips.

Job knew that Jehovah was just and would never do anything unjust. He falsely reasoned that God was behind these things. So what could he do, but defend God and try to justify what he thought was God's actions?

Yes, God allowed it. Satan asked, before the other spirit creatures. And God allowed it.

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“He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.” (Matt 26:42)

Yes, it was His will. But he didn't cause it. Satan did. (Gen 3:15) God allowed it, because it had to be done.

david

[Proclaimer]

One thing I have noticed is that people who belong to denominations that have certain doctrines are not really open to changing their point of view. Why? Because they have handed over their faith to an organisation who sets the parameters of what they are to believe. They are also often offended if their doctrines are questioned.

That is why I have little trust in such people and they have little influence in my life. They have traded living faith for fellowship with God where he teaches them directly, for a system that dictates what they are to believe.

How can such people truly serve for the Kingdom of God?
How useful is such a person?

Whereas the man who hasn't sold his faith to a denominational system is free to believe what God reveals to them by his Spirit. I trust these people much more for this reason.

To me it is kind of pointless to argue with those who are servants to a denomination. Such people serve in that name rather than the name of Jesus/Yeshua. Christadelpians believe that Satan isn't a being or angel and JWs believe that Christ is or was Michael the Archangel and the Watchtower predicts or prophecies correctly. But they serve in their own names.

To me it doesn't matter how many scriptures you show these people because if the scripture doesn't match up with the doctrines of their denomination, they will reject the scripture. Why? Because they do things in the name of their denomination. That is who they serve and that is where their reward lies. The greatest reward they can hope for is respect from those within their denomination. Some reward that is. If it is not in the name of Jesus, it is pointless.

The same goes for Trinitarians. You can show them very clearly from scritpure that the Trinity contradicts the 1st commandment and many other scritpures. But they will reject those scriptures because they contradict their denominational doctrine.

God help you all. If you are children of God, you should come out of her, lest you partake in God's judgement against her.

Satan exists alright. Look at the confusion he has wrought. Look at the divisions he has created. Look how he has rendered many of you powerless.

[Is 1:18]

Thanks for getting back to me Sam.

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What you say about angels sounds plausible on the surface, but stars have several different uses in scripture – in Joseph's dream they represent his brothers, for instance.

Yes, but (you must have known a “yes, but….” would follow this ) the star/angel idiom is actually one of the few that is unambiguously explained to us (by Yahshua) in Revelation itself. We surely have to attribute greater weighting to a symbol that is explained in the book over one that is sourced from outside. Further, does the designation “man” or “brother” fit the context of the Rev 12:1-4 passage? I can't see it. I think the star/angel symbolism sounds plausible because it is, allegorically and contextually. IMHO, it has to be the most/i] plausible interpretation.

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I'd need to give that a bit more thought. No problem. The key to understanding Revelation 12 begins in Daniel 7. Because of this link I see the dragon as referring to pagan Rome – it has nothing at all to do with a fallen angel. Since it's hard to fit pagan Rome with having angels, I'd have difficulty seeing the stars that way.

Interesting. I'll have to look into this.

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Did you know that that was the accepted interpretation (by basically everyone) of Rev 12 for well over a thousand years? There's a page on this that I'd love to point you to, but seems to be down at the moment – but this is good too:

Okay, look forward to reading it.

God Bless you too.

[Sammo]

Quote (t8 @ May 25 2006,09:14)

To me it doesn't matter how many scriptures you show these people because if the scripture doesn't match up with the doctrines of their denomination, they will reject the scripture.

How many of your major beliefs have you changed lately, t8? Do you honestly think you're any different to me, or David, or Is 1:18, or anyone else?

Quote (t8 @ May 25 2006,09:14)

Why? Because they do things in the name of their denomination. That is who they serve and that is where their reward lies. The greatest reward they can hope for is respect from those within their denomination. Some reward that is. If it is not in the name of Jesus, it is pointless.

That's simply false, and it's not very nice either. I'm sure that is true of some people, but you can't go round making generalisations like that.

[Proclaimer]

I have chosen to discover truth, not to have a certain man-made organisation dictate it to me. That is one major difference.

As a person I am not saying I am better than anyone. But I am sure that my decision to let God show me truth and to steer clear of man-made traditions, doctrines, and organisations is a good one because I am free in that respect.

As far as reward goes, Jesus said “do not be like those who fast in public to be seen of men for they have received their reward”. Now those who serve a denomination are like those who will receive a similar reward. Their reward is respect within that denomination.

If you serve man, then man's respect is as good a reward as you can expect. If you serve God, your prize is eternal reward.

It is only the works that are truly done in service of the Kingdom of God that receive eternal reward. The works of men are like idols. They crumble eventually and are not eternal nor give eternal reward. The wages for serving men is meagre at best.

Your adversity the one you do not believe in, is happy for you and others to remain in denominations that he or carnal men setup. The last thing he wants is unity of the brethren. He cannot afford all those with faith to burn as one big fire. For such a fire would burn up all his works. No he prefers to seperate each flame into small and seperate fires. That way he has a measure of control and is much less threatened.

A lot of small fires is much less threat than one big one.
Unity of the brethren is what God and his son desire. Serving denominations is not only vain work, but you do a disservice to the Body of Christ and make it harder for those in the world to believe in the truth.

So long as Satan has Christians inside lots of different denominations, he has won a great victory. The thing is that you and many others could simply walk out. The walls of your prison are the doctrines, traditions, and organisations of men. But so long as you do not believe you are in prison, you will not see the walls. So long as you do not believe in your adversary, he can work in your life undetected.

II Cor 2:11
“Lest Satan should get an advantage of us; for we are not ignorant
of his devices.”

1 John 2:14
14 I write to you, fathers,
because you have known him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,
and the word of God lives in you,
and you have overcome the evil one.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

[NickHassan]

Quote (Sammo @ May 25 2006,11:46)

Quote (t8 @ May 25 2006,09:14) To me it doesn't matter how many scriptures you show these people because if the scripture doesn't match up with the doctrines of their denomination, they will reject the scripture. How many of your major beliefs have you changed lately, t8? Do you honestly think you're any different to me, or David, or Is 1:18, or anyone else? Quote (t8 @ May 25 2006,09:14) Why? Because they do things in the name of their denomination. That is who they serve and that is where their reward lies. The greatest reward they can hope for is respect from those within their denomination. Some reward that is. If it is not in the name of Jesus, it is pointless. That's simply false, and it's not very nice either. I'm sure that is true of some people, but you can't go round making generalisations like that.

Hi sammo,
Your posts all advertise the church you serve. If you were here to learn, as most are, you would not be proudly stating your human foundation.

[Proclaimer]

To Sammo,

Quote (Sammo @ May 26 2006,06:46)

How many of your major beliefs have you changed lately, t8?

Not many. One would be that those who belong to denominations serve God less than I initially believed.

But I did once fellowship at a number of denominations and I did once believe that God was a Trinity. I even went to a denomination that preached the prosperity thing.

But thank God that I left all of them. I am free now to seek the truth in all things with no false authority to deceive me.

Simply put, I broke out of jail. No angel or human is going to convince me to go back. God by his Spirit led me out.

[Sammo]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2006,21:45)

Quote (Sammo @ May 25 2006,11:46) Quote (t8 @ May 25 2006,09:14) To me it doesn't matter how many scriptures you show these people because if the scripture doesn't match up with the doctrines of their denomination, they will reject the scripture. How many of your major beliefs have you changed lately, t8? Do you honestly think you're any different to me, or David, or Is 1:18, or anyone else? Quote (t8 @ May 25 2006,09:14) Why? Because they do things in the name of their denomination. That is who they serve and that is where their reward lies. The greatest reward they can hope for is respect from those within their denomination. Some reward that is. If it is not in the name of Jesus, it is pointless. That's simply false, and it's not very nice either. I'm sure that is true of some people, but you can't go round making generalisations like that. Hi sammo, Your posts all advertise the church you serve. If you were here to learn, as most are, you would not be proudly stating your human foundation.

“Would a grouping system that represented a persons denomination be a good idea? E.g., JWs, Christadelphians, Catholic, no denomination, etc. At the moment all are in the members group, apart from admins, and a couple of other exceptions.

One advantage of this would be that a person would be able to recognise where the others are coming from. I would also assume that a person who belongs to a denomination would be OK and not ashamed to be in that group.

A disadvantage could be that it turns into some kind of competition. But I think that this exists already to some degree.

Currently I think that new members can be confused and think that this BBS is run by the JWs or Christadelphians which it most certainly is not.

I know that it is not good for believers to say I follow Paul, and I follow Apollos, but the reality is that most believers do this very thing. So rather than trying to hide it, would it be better to put it out in the open and represent it the way it is?”

Ahem

[Sammo]

Quote (t8 @ May 26 2006,08:07)

To Sammo, Quote (Sammo @ May 26 2006,06:46) How many of your major beliefs have you changed lately, t8? Not many. One would be that those who belong to denominations serve God less than I initially believed. But I did once fellowship at a number of denominations and I did once believe that God was a Trinity. I even went to a denomination that preached the prosperity thing. But thank God that I left all of them. I am free now to seek the truth in all things with no false authority to deceive me. Simply put, I broke out of jail. No angel or human is going to convince me to go back. God by his Spirit led me out.

All of which presupposes that all demoninations are by definition wrong. Which is, frankly, silly.

You'll also find that there are lots of people that take the exact opposite route to you; they're absolutely thrilled when they find that they've independantly come to exactly the same conclusions as a particular demonination, and they can't wait to join. This happens all the time in my church.

I think it's important that people realise that your criticisms of demoninations are completely subjective.

[Sammo]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 23 2006,19:05)

Lk 20.34 “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for they cannot die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection“ So the resurrection being spoken of here is the FIRST resurrection, where the saved are raised into the 1000 reign. In that reign they are clothed in imperishable new bodies and they no longer physically die. The second death too has no power over them as they are sons of God. The death spoken of here is then the FIRST death. The law of sin and death only ever applied to those from the dust of earth. All creation was not cursed because of Adam's sin. Likewise the first death only applied to earthly creation, not heavenly. Angels never had earthly bodies so were not liable to this death. But the second death applies to all who sin. “1Thess 1.9 ” these will pay the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, away from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power” Satan's destiny is in this fire as also is the fate for those whose name is not in the book of life of the Lamb[Rev 20.13f, Rev 21.8] Rev 20 10 “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night FOREVER AND EVER” Matt 25.41f “..Depart from me accursed ones, into the ETERNAL FIRE, which has been prepared for THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.. …These will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life”” Eternal destruction where the body and soul of man can be destroyed is the fate of the angels who sinned. Angels can sin ,but they do not achieve the mercy God shows to weak men who can be forgiven.

Hi Nick

Could you explain this further please? You say that the second death has no power over the sons of God, which Luke 20:36 clearly equates with being like angels. But then you're saying that angels can be destroyed in the second death. How is that not a contradiction?

Revelation 20 says that the devil is affected by the second death – death. How do you reconcile that with the unambiguous statement in Luke 20: “for they cannot die anymore, because they are like angels”? Can angels die or not?

[Sammo]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 23 2006,20:27)

Your approach to biblical study is interesting. You took one verse from Luke. You took from that one verse that angels cannot die. You then, working backwards, decided this proved that proved angels cannot sin.

1. “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for they cannot die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection”.

Does this somehow not say that angels don't die? Where am I going wrong?

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2. “Bless the LORD, you His angels, Mighty in strength, who perform His word, Obeying the voice of His word! Bless the LORD, all you His hosts, You who serve Him, doing His will.” (Psalm 103:19-20)

According to David, angels are uniformly good.

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3. “Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven” (Matt 6:10)

According to Jesus, God's will is done in heaven – this is irreconcilable with a host of sinful angels warring in heaven (Rev 12) or coming into God's presence to try to usurp God (Job1-3) etc. If that is really what heaven is like, then in effect we're told to pray for war and rebellion to take place on earth – just like it does in heaven. No, in the kingdom, God is going to fill the earth with his glory, just like all of heaven is filled with God's glory now, where everyone does his will.

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4. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?” (Heb 1:14)

According to Paul, all angels are ministering spirits.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 23 2006,20:27)

Thus you denied multiple scriptures saying they can sin, but, undeterred you declared your doctrine. Are you happy with the quality of this effort?

I guess the main passages you're thinking of are 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6? It really bewilders me that people use these verses, because they directly contradict the beliefs that they're supposed to prove.

“For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;” (2 Peter 2:4)

But that's not what you believe is it? If the supposed fallen angels are in chains in hell until the day of judgement, then what's the problem? How can they do anyone any harm?

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“And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,” (Jude 6)

But that's not what you believe is it? If the supposed fallen angels are in eternal bonds in darkness until the day of judgement, then what's the problem? How can they do anyone any harm?

What am I missing here?

[Author]

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