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Hi T,
Yes. Taste and see that the Lord is good.If the master of the feast had known that the wine had been water from the washing pots would his reaction have been the same?
God in Christ again bypassed the weak and limiting intellect and knowledge base of man to get him responding from his heart to truth.Quote (sscott @ Dec. 29 2006,07:20) Was the devil a fallen angel?
Who knows…the bible is a mystery.What we do know…is that we'll never know it all.
And to know it all, would mean you know the mind of God.
And to know the mind of God, as a human…well…you would cease to be human…
In other words…die.
—————————————–
But scripturally…Yes the Devil is a fallen angel.
God called him a cherub. We know cherubs to be angels…I forgot who it was that tried to state the verse was being applied to mankind. But in the same verse God refered to Satan as a cherub.
If cherub = Angel…Then yes The devil began as an angel.
If Jesus saw him falling out of heaven like a lightning bolt then….
Cherub = Angel
Jesus Witnessed = FallingSo IMO Satan = A Fallen Angel
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2010,06:28) Hi T,
Yes. Taste and see that the Lord is good.If the master of the feast had known that the wine had been water from the washing pots would his reaction have been the same?
God in Christ again bypassed the weak and limiting intellect and knowledge base of man to get him responding from his heart to truth.
nicklook at what Christ says to his Mother,do you understand what he says?
then look the amount of Jars, and also why they are used for.
Pierre
Quote (RokkaMan @ June 01 2010,06:48) Quote (sscott @ Dec. 29 2006,07:20) Was the devil a fallen angel?
Who knows…the bible is a mystery.What we do know…is that we'll never know it all.
And to know it all, would mean you know the mind of God.
And to know the mind of God, as a human…well…you would cease to be human…
In other words…die.
—————————————–
But scripturally…Yes the Devil is a fallen angel.
God called him a cherub. We know cherubs to be angels…I forgot who it was that tried to state the verse was being applied to mankind. But in the same verse God refered to Satan as a cherub.
If cherub = Angel…Then yes The devil began as an angel.
If Jesus saw him falling out of heaven like a lightning bolt then….
Cherub = Angel
Jesus Witnessed = FallingSo IMO Satan = A Fallen Angel
Would you mind giving scripture where God refers to this “Satan” of yours as a cherub?Ezekiel 28:1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, 'Thus says the Lord God: “Because your heart is lifted up, And you say, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,' Yet you are a man, and not a god, Though you set your heart as the heart of a god 3 (Behold, you are wiser than Daniel! There is no secret that can be hidden from you! 4 With your wisdom and your understanding You have gained riches for yourself, And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries; 5 By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches, And your heart is lifted up because of your riches),” 6 'Therefore thus says the Lord God: “Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god, 7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you, The most terrible of the nations; And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, And defile your splendor. 8 They shall throw you down into the Pit, And you shall die the death of the slain In the midst of the seas. 9 “Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am a god'? But you shall be a man, and not a god, In the hand of him who slays you. 10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised By the hand of aliens; For I have spoken,” says the Lord God.' ” 11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord God: “You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. 16 “By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. 17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.
In the above scripture a MAN is referred to as being a cherub.
As well, we do not find the Hebrew word for adversary, nor the Greek word for slanderer, in the above verses. However, I'm sure that the KING of Tyre could very well have been considered a MAN of both!!
What we have in the above is a MAN who WAS referred to as being a cherub, not a cherub being referred to as an adversary against God.
Quote (RokkaMan @ May 13 2010,16:07) Bright morning star is literally translated into latin or greek as Lucifer….so what are you saying? I'm lying? lol
Hi RokkaMan,You are correct! I have been sent to the churches with this “Bible Truth”=117. (Rev.22:16 / 2Sam.12:10 / Luke 20:41-44)
Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2010,06:33) Hi ED,
I do not think you are an oracle of truth, do you?
Hi Nick,I certainly don't know all there is to know; I'm still learning too!
But you know as well as I, the important things are learned from the “HolySpirit”.
The “HolySpirit” teaches us from within, but we also must be receptive to the HolySpirit” given to others.Your brother in Christ,
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ June 02 2010,13:41) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2010,06:33) Hi ED,
I do not think you are an oracle of truth, do you?
Hi Nick,I certainly don't know all there is to know; I'm still learning too!
But you know as well as I, the important things are learned from the “HolySpirit”.
The “HolySpirit” teaches us from within, but we also must be receptive to the HolySpirit” given to others.Your brother in Christ,
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjhow you doing ?
i am currious ,is the Holy spirit talk to you ? guide you trough scriptures ?
we know he is not a angel so i will not ask.
of cause whatever your answer will be ,there is one more question to ask,is by any means your state of mind and heart has anything to do with it ?
Pierre
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2010,13:56) Hi ED,
Then has not the Spirit told you of the imminent return of Jesus?
Wake up
Hi Nick,That's what the systems of religion teach; Jesus returned at Pentecost. (John 14:23 / John 6:63) Click here
Ed J
Quote (terraricca @ June 02 2010,14:05) Quote (Ed J @ June 02 2010,13:41) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2010,06:33) Hi ED,
I do not think you are an oracle of truth, do you?
Hi Nick,I certainly don't know all there is to know; I'm still learning too!
But you know as well as I, the important things are learned from the “HolySpirit”.
The “HolySpirit” teaches us from within, but we also must be receptive to the HolySpirit” given to others.Your brother in Christ,
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjhow you doing ?
i am currious ,is the Holy spirit talk to you ? guide you trough scriptures ?
we know he is not a angel so i will not ask.
of cause whatever your answer will be ,there is one more question to ask,is by any means your state of mind and heart has anything to do with it ?
Pierre
Hi Terraricca,Just fine and dandy.
1Cor.2:9-15 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man,
the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit:
for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man,
save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know
the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which
man's wisdom teacheth, but which the HolySpirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with
spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are
foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.OK; ask your next question.
Ed J
Some arguments on Satan:
“Satan: A Biography” is the culmination of more than 40 years of research into the devil and religious and cultural traditions that have grown up around him. The book is Kelly's third on the topic.
When it comes to the Old Testament, Kelly insists that Satan's profile is considerably lower than commonly thought and significantly less menacing. By Kelly's count, Satan only appears three times in the 45 books that make up the pre-Christian scriptures, the best known being in the Book of Job. On each occasion, Satan is still firmly part of what Kelly calls “God's administration,” and his activities are done at the behest of “the Big Guy.” But his actions aren't evil so much as consistent with the translation of “devil” and “satan,” which literally mean “adversary” in Greek and Hebrew, respectively.
“His job is to test people's virtue and to report their failures,” Kelly said.
Perhaps most surprising is not the figure Satan cuts, but his notable absences in the Old Testament. In the Bible's first reference to Lucifer, for instance, Satan doesn't appear — even by implication, Kelly points out. “'Lucifer' is Latin for light-bearer,” he said, and was the name given to the morning star, or the planet Venus. Originally written in ancient Hebrew, the passage, on face value, refers to the tyrannical Babylonian king who boasts of his conquests but who is “about to be cast to the ground.” Kelly insists there's nothing more to the reference than an apt use of metaphor, but the third-century Christian philosopher Origen of Alexandria argued in his best known work, “On First Things,” that the reference applied to Satan.
“Origen says, 'Lucifer is said to have fallen from Heaven,'” Kelly explained. “'This can't refer to a human being, so it must refer to Satan.' Subsequent church fathers found this reasoning persuasive, and so did everyone who followed them.”
Ironically, the only mentions of Lucifer in the New Testament — and there are three of them — refer to Jesus, Kelly said. “Jesus is called 'Lucifer' or 'the morning star' because he represents a new beginning.”
Another prominent omission in the Old Testament, Kelly said, can be found in Genesis. “Nobody in the Old Testament — or, for that matter, in the New Testament either — ever identifies the serpent of Eden with Satan,” Kelly said. “The serpent is just the smartest animal, and he's motivated by envy after being jilted by Adam for Eve.”
Kelly traces the correlation of Satan and the serpent to not long after the New Testament was completed. In his “Dialogue With Trypho,” the second-century Christian martyr Justin of Samaria first argued that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God, according to Kelly.
“This is what I call 'The New Biography,'” Kelly said. “It starts with Justin Martyr, who implicates Satan in the fall of Adam and Eve. By causing Adam and Eve to fall, Satan caused his own fall.
“The second step in this new and phony biography comes with Origen, who said, 'No, Satan's first sin was not deceiving Adam and Eve or refusing to go along with God's plan of creating Adam in his own image,'” Kelly said. “'It was to sin out of pride like the morning star, like Lucifer in the passage from Isaiah.' Turning Satan into God's enemy is a two-step process.”
Meanwhile, in passages in Luke, Matthew, Corinthians and elsewhere in the New Testament, Satan continues to act as a tester, enforcer and prosecutor but not as God's enemy, Kelly points out.
“Everyone else has said that by the time Satan gets to the New Testament, he is evil, he's an enemy of God, but that's not so,” Kelly said. “The whole biblical picture of Satan is that of a bad cop to Yaweh's good cop in the Old Testament, and to Jesus' good cop in the New Testament. Throughout, Satan is someone who works for God.”
A scene in the New Testament's Book of Revelation is often cited today as evidence that Satan was the deceiver of Adam and Eve, but the interpretation stems from a fundamental misunderstanding, Kelly argues.
“'That ancient serpent' refers to the giant sea serpent Leviathan, not the garden snake of Eden,” he said. “In Revelation, Leviathan has morphed into a dragon, or large serpent, with the seven heads and 10 horns, which is still further removed from the seductive serpent who deceived Eve.”
In addition to linking Satan with the Garden of Eden, the passage from Revelation also has been used to prove that Satan fell early on in the Bible, but Kelly insists that is not accurate.
“Satan's ouster from heaven in Revelation is explained as taking place in the future,” Kelly said. “In Revelation 12:10, a voice says that 'the accuser of our brothers is cast out, overcome by the testimony of martyrs.' Since there were no martyrs until Christ died, that has to be in the future.”
Similarly, a passage in the Gospel of Luke, when Jesus reports having seen “Satan fall like lightning,” has been misinterpreted, according to Kelly. “Jesus saw the fall in the past because he had the vision the day before he describes it to the apostles,” Kelly said. “But Jesus is referring to a future fall [of Satan] from his position as God's attorney general.”
This is not to say, however, that Kelly contends that Satan is likeable.
“Jesus doesn't like him, and Paul doesn't like him,” Kelly explained. “He represents the old guard in the heavenly bureaucracy, and everyone longs for him to be disbarred as the chief accuser of humankind.”
Adam,
I agree that Isaiah 14 may not be speaking of Satan but then I see no evidence that Paul even held such a belief when he spoke of Lucifer. Paul is speaking of a fallen angel who he refers to as the morning star. Jews do believe that there were angels that fell from heaven.
Satan is believed to be such because Jesus stated he saw Satan fall from heaven but his words could have been figurative.
Adam,
I have agree that the Jews of the First Century and their ancestors where adherents of a mystical religion but probably not apocalyptic beyond satisfying a general curiosity.
They believed in angels both fallen and non-fallen as well as demons and looked for hidden meanings in the words of God.
Quote (Ed J @ June 02 2010,15:41) Quote (terraricca @ June 02 2010,14:05) Quote (Ed J @ June 02 2010,13:41) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2010,06:33) Hi ED,
I do not think you are an oracle of truth, do you?
Hi Nick,I certainly don't know all there is to know; I'm still learning too!
But you know as well as I, the important things are learned from the “HolySpirit”.
The “HolySpirit” teaches us from within, but we also must be receptive to the HolySpirit” given to others.Your brother in Christ,
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjhow you doing ?
i am currious ,is the Holy spirit talk to you ? guide you trough scriptures ?
we know he is not a angel so i will not ask.
of cause whatever your answer will be ,there is one more question to ask,is by any means your state of mind and heart has anything to do with it ?
Pierre
Hi Terraricca,Just fine and dandy.
1Cor.2:9-15 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man,
the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit:
for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man,
save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know
the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which
man's wisdom teacheth, but which the HolySpirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with
spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are
foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.OK; ask your next question.
Ed J
edjyes you have answer all of them ,it seems you did not read my quote properly.
Paul answer the last question ;But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are
foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.Pierre
Adam……..I agree with Kelly on his findings, there is (NO) such thing as a SATAN (BEING) only an Advertorial (Spirit) or (intellect) THAT can infect anyone . Satan as a (BEING) is a Metaphysical creation of Man anyone can be a satan or devil (adversary) even GOD himself can be. Man is the prince of the power of the air, not some elusive (being) with mimes goings around jumping in and out of People. Anyone who is an (adversary) to GOD is a SATAN to HIM. Just as Peter and Judas and the Pharisees were to Jesus who was doing God's Work. IMO
peace and love to you and your Adam…………………….gene
Quote (terraricca @ June 03 2010,01:26) edj yes you have answer all of them ,it seems you did not read my quote properly.
Paul answer the last question ;But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are
foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.Pierre
Hi Terraricca,Thank's Pierre!
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 03 2010,02:43) Adam……..I agree with Kelly on his findings, there is (NO) such thing as a SATAN (BEING) only an Advertorial (Spirit) or (intellect) THAT can infect anyone . Satan as a (BEING) is a Metaphysical creation of Man anyone can be a satan or devil (adversary) even GOD himself can be. Man is the prince of the power of the air, not some elusive (being) with mimes goings around jumping in and out of People. Anyone who is an (adversary) to GOD is a SATAN to HIM. Just as Peter and Judas and the Pharisees were to Jesus who was doing God's Work. IMO peace and love to you and your Adam…………………….gene
Thank you very much brother Gene. Infact I am also behind the search of real Satan and devil what the Bible declares. But I see by the time of compilation of N.T every thing changed to personal Satan and devil. He is now a cruel being with ugly face for all Christians.Love and peace to you
Adam
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