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Gene wrote:
Quote So in you understanding , it is man who is the ultimate savior of himself , by (His) FREE WILL (non influenced choices) And GOD (creating) it in us is not true then, the bottom line is, it is up to the person himself right?
You need to change your point of view about God as it is not keeping with scripture. My advice is to try to think like Solomon was thinking when he wrote this scripture.
Psalms 127:1(KJV) reads:
Quote Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.
Now reconcile the scripture you quoted in your post with these words of Peter considering what Solomon wrote.
Acts 2:40(KJV) reads:
Quote And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Kerwin …..I was asking you if that was your view not my view, Because you seem to think you save yourself by your so-called free will choices. I totally believe, unless the lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it; except the lord keep the city, the watchman wakes in vain. As i have alway said here, Then you change your position by Quoting Peter as saying we save our selves, So i asume you believe you are saving your self right?
peace and love…………………………gene
Gene wrote:
Quote I was asking you if that was your view not my view,
I answered but in a way that requires you to think.
Gene wrote:
Quote Then you change your position by Quoting Peter as saying we save our selves
If you think I changed my position then you did not read, or at least understand my words which were to instruct you to reconcile Peter's words with the words from scripture, you had quoted previously, while considering Solomon's point of view. I am trying to get you away from the false dilemma you have set up.
If I build a house did I do the work or did God do the work?
If I guard a city do I do the work of guarding or does God do the work?
If I strive to build a house but God is not with me what happens?
If I strive to guard a city but God is not with me what happens?
If I strive to save myself from this corrupt generation can I succeed if God is not with me?
Kerwin,……I agree with that , only the question is who (CAUSES) you to try in the first place is that you decision or GOD”S . Jesus said (NO MAN) CAN COME unto me except the Father draw him. Did you just all by your self by (so-called FREE WILL CHOICE) decide to build a house , as many do, but in the end fail. or did GOD (CAUSE) you to SEEK him? Did you come to GOD or Did GOD First move to cause you to seek him, is the question. Is it truly BY GRACE and That (NOT) of OUR WORKS, or our we fooled some how in thinking its a joint project and therefore we do get (some ) credit for our part in saving ourselves. Some kind of reward for our part in saving ourselves.
1Jo 4:10………Herein is love, (NOT) that we loved GOD, but that he loved us, and sent his son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Many are raised in homes where they are taught to seek GOD and go to church regularly and are decieved into think their self made salvation it acceptable with GOD and Jesus , even Jesus said many would come to him and say in His name they did all kinds of good works, and Jesus did not say they did not do those good works but said they were works of iniquity. Jesus even told His disciples they did not chose Him , he chose them.
Rom 4:4…> Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of (GRACE), but of DEBT. But to him the worketh (NOT), but believes on him that justifieth the (UNGODLY), his (FAITH) is counted for righteousness. Even as David also described the blessedness of the man unto whom GOD imputs righteousness without works, Saying blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whom the lord will not impute sin.
Rom 5:1…> therefore being Justified by faith we have peace with GOd through our Lord Jesus Christ. , By whom also we have access by faith into this (grace) wherein we stand and rejoice in hope of the glory of GOD.
Now I ask you where here are we joint “BUILDERS” with GOD in our salvation. Its all by Faith and that FAITH is GIVEN to US BY GOD'S GRACE. No room for boasting is there. IMO
peace and love………………gene
Gene wrote:
Quote I agree with that , only the question is who (CAUSES) you to try in the first place is that you decision or GOD”S . Jesus said (NO MAN) CAN COME unto me except the Father draw him.
I already answered this question of yours. God created us. Some he created to hunger and thirst for righteousness. When someone hears the message that will fill their cravings then they come to Jesus because those cravings God gave them when He created them draw them. They still choose to come but they choose to come according to the cravings God gave them. Satan puts obstacles in front of them but if those cravings are true then they will overcome because God will give them what they need to overcome. So I decide to follow Jesus but I decide because God created in me the desire to do all that is right. I am able to come because God makes the path straight and the way clear if I truly seek him with all my heart.
Gene wrote:
Quote Is it truly BY GRACE and That (NOT) of OUR WORKS, or our we fooled some how in thinking its a joint project and therefore we do get (some ) credit for our part in saving ourselves.
I did not create myself not did I instruct myself in righteousness. The most I can say is I did what I was told and that is what God expects us to do and so it deserves no reward. What should I do, boast because I did not embrace evil. That claim itself sounds dirty. In fact I am ashamed of the evil I do embrace without hinting that I wanted to embrace it.
Kerwin ………Ten (I)'s in just four short sentences. The deception in you is your self positioning Here, Like this statement of your , ” (I) answered (but) in a way the (requires) you to think”. When in fact you just vesiculated the subject to get around it. That is a condescending statement, What makes you think you are able to require me to do anything? That is just a form of arrogance of the (I) God man. You view yourself as a teacher but have need to be taught the basic of salvation IMO. Salvation is BY GRACE (ONLY) and (NOT) of YOURSELF, you add Nothing to the Process. Your pride seem to resist that. IMO,
gene
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Gene wrote:
Quote Ten (I)'s in just four short sentences.
You are practicing both a red herring fallacy as well as an Ad hominems fallacy. Why are you attempting to distract from the actual argument at hand? That is a deceptive maneuver though perhaps unintentional as you may have been distracted by such a minor issue yourself.
Entry for Red Herring Fallacy at The Writing Center University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/fallacies.html reads:
Quote Definition: Partway through an argument, the arguer goes off on a tangent, raising a side issue that distracts the audience from what's really at stake. Often, the arguer never returns to the original issue.
And
Entry for Ad Hominems Fallacy at The Writing Center University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/fallacies.html reads:
Quote Definitions: Like the appeal to authority and ad populum fallacies, the ad hominem (“against the person”) and tu quoque (“you, too!”) fallacies focus our attention on people rather than on arguments or evidence. In both of these arguments, the conclusion is usually “You shouldn't believe So-and-So's argument.” The reason for not believing So-and-So is that So-and-So is either a bad person (ad hominem) or a hypocrite (tu quoque). In an ad hominem argument, the arguer attacks his or her opponent instead of the opponent's argument.
I can see the ad hominems not actually being a fallacy if it relates to the issue at hand but considering I am giving a testimony using “I” is expected. You should read scripture before criticizing others.
Luke 17:10(KJV) reads:
Quote So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
I see two “ye“’s, 1 “you, and 2 :”We”s. If you notice I was referencing it though I did expand on it, thus the 10 instead of 7. By criticizing me you also criticized Jesus for using similar words. In criticizing Jesus the rest of your argument just fell to pieces. I suggest you go back to my previous post and address the points I raised.
Here is my source for fallacies.
Kerwin…..My point as that those who believe they are the saviors of them selves by their so-called free choices are in error, and tend to focus on themselves rather then on GOD'S work which He alone DOES in those He calls and choses. I can not really tell if you believe it is GOD (ALONE) that saves us or a combination of us and GOD, Or we build the house and GOD helps Us. I don't believe you made that truly known. IMO
peace and love……………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ May 03 2009,08:22) Kerwin…..My point as that those who believe they are the saviors of them selves by their so-called free choices are in error, and tend to focus on themselves rather then on GOD'S work which He alone DOES in those He calls and choses. I can not really tell if you believe it is GOD (ALONE) that saves us or a combination of us and GOD, Or we build the house and GOD helps Us. I don't believe you made that truly known. IMO peace and love……………………………..gene
I am worthless without God and with God I am a jewel without price.Hi,
God saves through Jesus those who respond to His call to repentance.
And only those who are led by the Spirit are sons of God.NH.
You keep calling for one to repent, yet you don't seem to know what we are to repent of. May I ask what you 'repented' of?Hi CO,
Has God not shown you yet?
Never mind but if you ask Him you will find your answer.
If you do not hear for awhile it does not negate the need for all to do so.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2009,12:57) Hi CO,
Has God not shown you yet?
Never mind but if you ask Him you will find your answer.
If you do not hear for awhile it does not negate the need for all to do so.
Your answer seems vague but it is a good answer and I think better than actually telling him what to repent of.It appears that sometimes a cryptic seeming answer is the best answer. That may be why Jesus spoke in parables and some scriptures are hard to understand.
Kerwin……….I disagree with that , His answer is vague because he doesn't understand the salvation process, on the one hand he says (WE) need to repent, then says Has God not shown you, then says if you do not hear for awhile , (all vague answers and no specificity given) The inference on the (WE) shows a self effort, Meaning he lack of understanding that GOD (GIVES REPENTANCE) He not only requires it, He creates it in all he calls. This seem to be a problem with your theology of salvation also. And a cryptic answer is never the best answer unless someone is (trying) to hid something. IMO
peace and love…………………………….gene
G,
So God does not call all.
God does not grant the enabling grace of repentance to all.
So how can you align your own teaching that all will be saved that what you have just said?Quote (Gene @ May 03 2009,06:50) Kerwin……….I disagree with that , His answer is vague because he doesn't understand the salvation process, on the one hand he says (WE) need to repent, then says Has God not shown you, then says if you do not hear for awhile , (all vague answers and no specificity given) The inference on the (WE) shows a self effort, Meaning he lack of understanding that GOD (GIVES REPENTANCE) He not only requires it, He creates it in all he calls. This seem to be a problem with your theology of salvation also. And a cryptic answer is never the best answer unless someone is (trying) to hid something. IMO peace and love…………………………….gene
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.
Here are just a few of many scriptures that would lead me to blieve that ambiguos innuendo is not the answer appropriate to the question, “what did you repent of”.
Parables were spoken to those that Jesus knew were not sincere seekers. Can we say we know that of any man or should we share the gospel at every opportunity?
Blessings.
Seeking
Seeking wrote:
Quote Parables were spoken to those that Jesus knew were not sincere seekers. Can we say we know that of any man or should we share the gospel at every opportunity?
So according to you Jesus cherry picked who would hear the true gospel and who would hear babbling.
You might want to consider the possibility that Jesus was using parables as a teaching tool since God is a God that knows all mysteries and will reveal the truth of a parable to those who truly seek Him.
I want to point out that not all parables in scripture are interpreted so does that mean those that read scripture are not sincere seekers?
I placed this in the wrong threat. I am addressing your belief about God being seven spirits.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2009,17:57) Hi CO,
Has God not shown you yet?
Never mind but if you ask Him you will find your answer.
If you do not hear for awhile it does not negate the need for all to do so.
NH.
So you say God has not shown me yet. Obviously you believe that He has shown you, so is this some “secret message”, that only some recieve? If so, then only God “chooses” to whom He will save, yet you believe only your 'works' (ie. knowing how and what to repent of) saves you.
Please share this 'secret' knowledge of yours so we can all be saved!!!
I'm sure you won't, because you can't answer.Quote (chosenone @ May 04 2009,05:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2009,17:57) Hi CO,
Has God not shown you yet?
Never mind but if you ask Him you will find your answer.
If you do not hear for awhile it does not negate the need for all to do so.
NH.
So you say God has not shown me yet. Obviously you believe that He has shown you, so is this some “secret message”, that only some receive? If so, then only God “chooses” to whom He will save, yet you believe only your 'works' (ie. knowing how and what to repent of) saves you.
Please share this 'secret' knowledge of yours so we can all be saved!!!
I'm sure you won't, because you can't answer.
I don't know what Nick will say but I will say this. If you do not understand what you are to repent of then there is nothing I can do for you as you have to be poor and spirit and you cannot be if you do not understand what you need to repent of.Why did Jesus die? Did he sin and so deserve death? If then why did he die for God clearly states that those who do not sin do not die?
Can you answer that?
What does poor in spirit mean?
I ask these questions in hope that you are led by God. If you cannot answer them then you need to go to God and not to me or Nick.
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