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Quote David………I have quoted to you scriptures but you just change what they say as you have with many scriptures quoted to you Yes, you've quoted 3 scriptures. But good luck finding them. It took me hours.
Gene, you tend not to use scriptures. You use propaganda and false reasoning. One such thing is that you continually mention I'm a JW, as if that makes your beliefs correct, or any of my beliefs wrong.Quote Fact is if you really understood Scripture like you think you could explain your points with very little Quotes and you trying to say I don't use scriptures is an absolute (LIE). You almost never “quote” scripture. You “allude” to it, as Mandy mentioned. You'll quote a few words and then string that together with your own words, so it becomes blured what is scripture and what is your words. You don't set scripture apart. This makes it seem that you hold it as equal with your own thoughts.
Quote Like Your ignorance about the Kingdom of GOD, When Just a Plane and simple Scripture Spoken of by Jesus which i quoted clears up the whole matter.
Your blindness literally makes me want to vomit.
You ignore the alternate translation of the one Bible you use. You ignore that the VERY FEW Bibles that translate it that way, have alternate translations that agree with my beliefs. And, you ignore (and refuse to even acknowledge the existence) of the countless other scriptures that demonstrate what the kingdom is.Quote But because you and your JW indoctrinations won't even let you understand the obvious quoted scriptures.
Which one of us is holding to ONLY ONE Bible translation and ignoring the vast majority? You.
Which one of us is ignoring scripture as a whole and only looking at ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE? You.
Which one of us leaves the context out of that one single scripture you use? You.
I believe you are indoctrinated. I know this because you cannot even see the other scriptures. You are unable to reason or answer questions on them. To you, they don't exist. You cannot see them.I noticed you incorrectly said “scriptures” in plural as though you quoted more than one scripture.
Quote Before you start foaming out your garbage you need to take a good look at yourself. I
Gene, I just wish you would sometimes use scriptures and not just rely on the parts of the scripture you remember and intermingle those tiny parts with your own thoughts. It is confusing. I also wish you could use more than one scripture or more than one or two Bible's to prove your points.Quote Not true. I've debated with you before, David. I'm aware of your style. I do respect you, as you know, but you and I debate very little. There is a reason for this. When I said “I never talk that way” I meant I never say things like “ The carnal minded man tends to shy away from scripture. The spiritual man uses scripture. The carnal man uses his own philosophies and hides in the face of scripture.“
Try as you might, I don't think you'll ever find I've used the word “carnal” before the above post in this forum. I doubt very much I've even ever used that word in life, much less this forum.
Gene uses that word a whole lot. He sometimes insuates that if you do not agree with him, you are carnal and if you do agree with him, you are spiritual.
Mandy, I decided to do the same. The truth is, I'm extraordinarily frustrated with gene, for he in speaking with him about the kingdom of God, he has only one scripture, taken from one or two Bible's (and ignoring the alternate translation in the margin).
And, he will take that scripture, ignore the context (those words are spoken to the pharisees, whom Jesus “answered.”) And, what is more frustrating, is that he actually doesn't seem to see the other scriptures about the kingdom.It is true that when I become so frustrated by something that seems so obvious to me, I start to behave badly. I tend to mimmick them, and use their own reasoning, and leave logic behind. I should not have done that.
Quote I can sift for myself what is his opinion/interpretation and what is the base line scripture that he is drawing from.
Well Mandy, you must know scripture a lot better than I do. Because I have a very hard time. I've asked him like 10 times just to put quotes around the scripture or tell us what the name of the scripture is. I find his posts very confusing.Quote David,
I do appreciate your message very much. I also appreciate the time and dedication you give towards your posts. I've shared this with you before. I certainly don't think you are foaming out garbage.Thank you MANDY.
Quote Fact is if you really understood Scripture like you think[,] you could explain your points with very little [q]uotes [from the Bible]. –Gene
So, if you understand scripture, you won't need to use scripture. Got it. Sure. Ok.
But Gene, did you ever consider that the point of using scripture, isn't for your sake, but for the sake of those who listen to you?
Believe me when I say from experience in the ministry that PEOPLE RESPECT GOD'S WORD way more than they respect your word Gene.
Why not use this truth to your advantage? The only logical reason I can see not to use that great advantage is: You are not accurately representing what the Bible says, and therefore, do not want to complicate matters by using the Bible.
Since this is not the case Gene, why push people to wonder if it is the reason you very rarely use the Bible?My apologies to the forum, for starting another sabbath thread, forgivness please.
and, gentlemen…….whatever happen to building each other up……….truly my son comes home with stories such as yours…..and he is in the third grade, personally……..what you have written, what have you taught, is this all you have for each other.
from the gospel of hebrews:
rejoicing should only come, when you can look at your brother in love.
much love
Quote (wild_olive_branch @ Feb. 11 2009,13:12) My apologies to the forum, for starting another sabbath thread, forgiveness please. and, gentlemen…….whatever happen to building each other up……….truly my son comes home with stories such as yours…..and he is in the third grade, personally……..what you have written, what have you taught, is this all you have for each other.
from the gospel of Hebrews:
rejoicing should only come, when you can look at your brother in love.
much love
I certainly agree with you, in Love with should debate, if we do not agree. We all grow in different stages. So be encouraged and post again.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (david @ Feb. 10 2009,19:00) Quote Fact is if you really understood Scripture like you think[,] you could explain your points with very little [q]uotes [from the Bible]. –Gene
Quote But Gene, did you ever consider that the point of using scripture, isn't for your sake, but for the sake of those who listen to you? David this is a good point, I do like posts that even if they don't have the entire passage quoted but do have the scripture reference as I like to read the context of a passage.
It does help especially those who are new or have not read a lot of the bible to have references so that they can study for themselves.
Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 12 2009,06:29) Quote (david @ Feb. 10 2009,19:00) Quote Fact is if you really understood Scripture like you think[,] you could explain your points with very little [q]uotes [from the Bible]. –Gene
Quote But Gene, did you ever consider that the point of using scripture, isn't for your sake, but for the sake of those who listen to you? David this is a good point, I do like posts that even if they don't have the entire passage quoted but do have the scripture reference as I like to read the context of a passage.
It does help especially those who are new or have not read a lot of the bible to have references so that they can study for themselves.
Gene, if your posts are for the benefit of others, why not actually try to benefit others? They respect the Bible. Why not use it, so people can actually tell you're using it?David…………look if you want to believe the Kingdom of GOD in not in a person , I have no problem with that just believe it, it OK with me and i am sure everyone else here to. I personally do not believe what you postulate or the JW's far as that goes. No one is asking you to believe anything i say, OK. Just drop it, and be happy.
love and peace to you………………………………..gene
Quote David………. Gene, 2 things. I started that thread. I asked the question. You responded. As far as I can tell, you are completely wrong and use only 1 scripture to back up your belief and even ignore the alternate translations in the margins of that Bible. I keep asking the question this thread asks. Stop responding if you don't want to discuss it.
#2–Did you notice what meerkat said above? Do you not want to help others understand the Bible?mandy,
thank you, I am fine with Sabbath. I have heard it all before, Christ is our Sabbath, yes he is Lord of Sabbath, he is my rest.
Why take just throw out this commandment and keep the others, you could be doing the Lord's work on this day ……..pray your flight does not come in winter or Sabbath, round and round it goes, where it stops…….tribulation.Sabbath is my, no interference with the world, everything is in order, , my affairs are in order, food is prepared, all know my door is open, and praise be I can walk to the temple, if needed, have had Sabbath at my house a few times, truthfully, i enjoy this the most
i do not do Sabbath as some do traditon of sort. just the basic 101 Sabbath keeping. if anyone can understand that.
tried the schedule way of sabbath, lighting candles, saying certain prayers, became more fustrated and angry, then it was given, Sabbath is not about that, it is about Father, reading the teachings of Christ with family, learning, what is the best, it is not 10-12 or 7-9, it is an all day occasion.
Quote (princess of the king @ Oct. 16 2009,20:21) mandy, thank you, I am fine with Sabbath. I have heard it all before, Christ is our Sabbath, yes he is Lord of Sabbath, he is my rest.
Why take just throw out this commandment and keep the others, you could be doing the Lord's work on this day ……..pray your flight does not come in winter or Sabbath, round and round it goes, where it stops…….tribulation.Sabbath is my, no interference with the world, everything is in order, , my affairs are in order, food is prepared, all know my door is open, and praise be I can walk to the temple, if needed, have had Sabbath at my house a few times, truthfully, i enjoy this the most
i do not do Sabbath as some do traditon of sort. just the basic 101 Sabbath keeping. if anyone can understand that.
tried the schedule way of sabbath, lighting candles, saying certain prayers, became more fustrated and angry, then it was given, Sabbath is not about that, it is about Father, reading the teachings of Christ with family, learning, what is the best, it is not 10-12 or 7-9, it is an all day occasion.
I love Yom HaShabbat from dusk til dawn.
And what I love is watching the woman of the house issuing in Yom HaShabbat, there is no greater joy! 
To me it's not just a holyday it's a holiday! 
Zeh Mesukan Yoshev Al Hagader
We are not under that law anymore, and as Gentiles we never were. It was a covenant that God made with Israel.
Exodus 31:16-17 :Therefor the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generation as a perpetual covenant.
verse 17 “It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever…….
When we belonged to the W.W.Church of God we too kept the Sabbath. We have learned a lot since then.Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it is a free gift from God.
verse 9 not of works, lest you should boast.We are under a new covenant in
Luke 22:20…..”This cup is the new covenant in My Blood, which is shed for you.”In the old testament time, they had to make atonement for their sins and had to kill an animal for that.
Also if you want to keep te law, you have to keep the whole Law.Romans 5:4 “You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Romans 5:3 And I testify again , to every man who becomes circumcised that you are debtors to keep the whole law.
Every man in the old Testament times became circumcised. Is that what you want to do too.
In today's society all boy babies do get circumcised, for cleanliness's only.
Peace and Love Irene
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View iB CodeQuote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 17 2009,17:20) georg, Looks like your page went a little nutz.
No it didn't Just pasted it from Halloween. And its the truth.I did once a reply to someone who was telling me I should hold the Sabbath. This is translated from Dutch, so please bare with me if their are any strange sentences and such:
“No, I don't keep the church celebrations nor 'The Sunday'. But I have thought about the Sabbath. In a certain way I have concluded how I should stand towards it. If you see it differently, please show me with the bible. Because I want to read the bible and follow God's will as purely as possible.
The Sabbath is a resting day for us people. It is also a commandment from God to the Jews. What I thought was strange, is that the Apostles didn't wrote this commandment to the gentile Christians.
In Matthew 11:28-30 the following is written:
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”And when Paul is writing the following in Colossians 2:16-17
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.Then I come to the following conclusion:
a ) The Sabbath was a resting day, but was also only a shadow of things to come.
b ) We can find our rest in Jesus.
c ) Paul, wrote that you shouldn't judge about the Sabbath or other days (of course as long as they aren't sin).
d ) The Apostles didn't wrote in their letter to the gentile believers that they should keep the Sabbath, which is a important part of the Jewish faith.So my conclusion for now is that we hold our 'Sabbath' in Jesus. We can find our rest in Jesus.
What can you say against it? Jesus is our example and he held the Sabbath as a human being. I don't judge anyone about the Sabbath, whether they hold it or not, because you are doing it in honor of God, even though I think that the Sabbath has moved towards Jesus.”
Constitutionalist and princess of the king, that sounds really nice.
Quote (igorwulff @ Oct. 18 2009,02:08) I did once a reply to someone who was telling me I should hold the Sabbath. This is translated from Dutch, so please bare with me if their are any strange sentences and such: “No, I don't keep the church celebrations nor 'The Sunday'. But I have thought about the Sabbath. In a certain way I have concluded how I should stand towards it. If you see it differently, please show me with the bible. Because I want to read the bible and follow God's will as purely as possible.
The Sabbath is a resting day for us people. It is also a commandment from God to the Jews. What I thought was strange, is that the Apostles didn't wrote this commandment to the gentile Christians.
In Matthew 11:28-30 the following is written:
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”And when Paul is writing the following in Colossians 2:16-17
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.Then I come to the following conclusion:
a ) The Sabbath was a resting day, but was also only a shadow of things to come.
b ) We can find our rest in Jesus.
c ) Paul, wrote that you shouldn't judge about the Sabbath or other days (of course as long as they aren't sin).
d ) The Apostles didn't wrote in their letter to the gentile believers that they should keep the Sabbath, which is a important part of the Jewish faith.So my conclusion for now is that we hold our 'Sabbath' in Jesus. We can find our rest in Jesus.
What can you say against it? Jesus is our example and he held the Sabbath as a human being. I don't judge anyone about the Sabbath, whether they hold it or not, because you are doing it in honor of God, even though I think that the Sabbath has moved towards Jesus.”
Constitutionalist and princess of the king, that sounds really nice.
I have given you Scriptures in my above post, and yet you insist that you have to keep the Sabbath, why? Coming to Christ is not the same then keeping the Sabbath.
Give me clear Scriptures out of the N.T. not old. We are not under the old covenant and never have. It was a sign between Israel and God. We are under grace and not the law.
However, it was Jesus On the Sermon on te Mount who magnified the law. But it does not include the Sabbath.
In Math. 19:17 it is asked of Jesus what commandment to keep, He said several ones, but never meantions the Sabbath.
He also told us what the greatest commandment is and He said this:” Love your God with all of your Hearts, and your Neighbor as yourselves.” If He would want to keep the Sabbath, would He not at least say so?
In one of Paul letters, He said that “one esteems one day, and another another day, and some keep all the days to the Lord. We have the Holy Spirit in us, and we should keep all the days Holy, for you are Holy, Jesus told us.
I am going to surge out my Covenant tread that I made some time ago and see about some Scriptures for those that think that they have to keep the Sabbath.
IreneQuote (igorwulff @ Oct. 17 2009,07:08) I did once a reply to someone who was telling me I should hold the Sabbath. This is translated from Dutch, so please bare with me if their are any strange sentences and such: “No, I don't keep the church celebrations nor 'The Sunday'. But I have thought about the Sabbath. In a certain way I have concluded how I should stand towards it. If you see it differently, please show me with the bible. Because I want to read the bible and follow God's will as purely as possible.
The Sabbath is a resting day for us people. It is also a commandment from God to the Jews. What I thought was strange, is that the Apostles didn't wrote this commandment to the gentile Christians.
In Matthew 11:28-30 the following is written:
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”And when Paul is writing the following in Colossians 2:16-17
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.Then I come to the following conclusion:
a ) The Sabbath was a resting day, but was also only a shadow of things to come.
b ) We can find our rest in Jesus.
c ) Paul, wrote that you shouldn't judge about the Sabbath or other days (of course as long as they aren't sin).
d ) The Apostles didn't wrote in their letter to the gentile believers that they should keep the Sabbath, which is a important part of the Jewish faith.So my conclusion for now is that we hold our 'Sabbath' in Jesus. We can find our rest in Jesus.
What can you say against it? Jesus is our example and he held the Sabbath as a human being. I don't judge anyone about the Sabbath, whether they hold it or not, because you are doing it in honor of God, even though I think that the Sabbath has moved towards Jesus.”
Constitutionalist and princess of the king, that sounds really nice.
The Sabbath is a weekly remembrance of God as the Creator.As we reflect on the wonders of His creation, we more fully appreciate His unseen qualities.
The Sabbath is a day to set aside the cares and demands of the world and to rest in the spiritual dimension, a dimension that is sadly repressed during the other days of the week.
The Sabbath is a day for family bonding and collective worship.
The Sabbath is a day for healing and ministry to those who are in need.
The Sabbath is a day for sharing the knowledge of God with those who do not know Him.
God separated the 7th day for a holy purpose, a regular period of spiritual refreshment.
Quote The Sabbath is a resting day for us people. It is also a commandment from God to the Jews. What I thought was strange, is that the Apostles didn't wrote this commandment to the gentile Christians. It is a Commandment written for man before there was a Jew (before Sinai (Ge 2:1-3, Ex 16:23-30,35),
Jesus kept the Sabbath. (Lk 4:16). Jesus was crucified on Friday, the day of preparation for the Sabbath. (Lk 23:52-54). Jesus “rested” in the grave on the Sabbath. (Lk 23:55,56). Three days – inclusive reckoning, any part counted as a whole. (Lk 13:32,33, Lk 24:13,20-23). Jesus rose to work on Sunday, the first day of the week. (Mk 16:9, Lk 24:1,2).
The apostles kept the Sabbath while Jesus was on the earth, since they followed Jesus. The apostles continued to keep the Sabbath after the resurrection. (Ac 13:13,14,42,44, Ac 16:13-15, Ac 17:2, Ac 18:4,11). Jesus indicated that the Sabbath would still be kept after His resurrection. (Mt 24:7,8,20).
Upon being threatened by the Jewish leaders, the early church quoted in unison from the 4th commandment. (Ac 4:21-24). The controversy over circumcision is mentioned in the new testament. (Ac 15:1-31). No controversy, whatsoever, is reported about Sabbath observance in the new testament.
The Sabbath Law was Repeated in the New Testament. Keep the 7th-day Sabbath holy (Mk 2:27,28, Lk 4:16).
Quote In Matthew 11:28-30 the following is written:
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”Does a salvation “rest” replace the Sabbath? (Heb 4:4,8-11) No. Entering the promised land (which represents salvation) is referred to as entering into God's rest. (Heb 3:7-11). The Sabbath rest is used here as symbolic of salvation by faith (without works). (Heb 4:4-6). The people did not obtain salvation because of unbelief. (Heb 4:2,10,11). The people practiced the letter of the law, but they did not internalize the law in their heart. (Heb 3:7-11, Heb 4:7) (compare Heb 8:10). Another day (today) is being offered to everyone to receive salvation by faith. (Heb 3:12-15, Heb 4:7,8). Salvation by faith has always been the only plan for salvation (since the foundation of the world). (Heb 4:3 compare Rev 13:8). Rather than being replaced by salvation by faith, the Sabbath is a weekly reminder of our reliance on faith in Jesus, rather than works. (Ex 20:8-11, Ro 3:20,27,28). Rather than being replaced by salvation by faith, the Sabbath provides one day each week to focus on and strengthen our faith. (Mk 2:27).
Quote And when Paul is writing the following in Colossians 2:16-17
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.These verses are used to prove that the weekly Sabbath as well as annual Sabbaths have been nailed to the cross.
This view is incorrect and is based on several mistranslations, added words not found in any Greek texts, and poor Bible exegesis.
Let's first determine the context of chapter two.
In verses 4 and 8 Paul warns the Colossians about deceivers.
Then again, in verse 18, Paul gives his final warning about these same deceivers.
In what way were they trying to deceive the Colossians?
Verse 8 tells us that they were trying to exalt the traditions of men over the Messiah (verses 8 & 19).
Notice carefully the context; the traditions of men in verse 8, 18, and 22.
The verses that occur between 8 and 22 must be understood based on the context of the traditions of men.
Now we can understand the key word in Col.2:14, “ordinances.” The Greek word for ordinances here is a form of the root word “dogma” which means man-ma
de rules, laws, commandments, precepts, etc.Paul is not talking about Yahweh's ordinances in this verse.
He is talking about man's ordinances or traditions.
This same word is used in Col.2:20 pertaining to the doctrines and commandments of men; in Lu.2:1 pertaining to a decree from Caesar Augustus; in Acts 17:7 pertaining to a decree from Caesar; and in Eph.2:15, which we will look at later.
It always pertains to man's commandments, not Yahweh's.
Compare the word dogma with the Greek word that pertains to Yahweh's ordinances, “dikaioma.”
This word dikaioma was used in Lu.1:6 pertaining to the ordinances of Yahweh and in Heb.9:1,10 pertaining once again to Yahweh's ordinances.
Therefore, Paul is saying in verse 14 that the traditions and commandments of men are the issue, not Yahweh's laws.
But what was nailed to the cross?
The Greek construction shows that the “handwriting” was nailed, not the ordinances.
The handwriting or, in Greek, the “cheirographon” was a certificate of debt.
Whenever a man sins against Yahweh his sin is imputed against him (Rom.4:7,8).
When men exalt the traditions of men over the commandments of Yahweh, as the Pharisees did, for example, they sin against Yahweh.
The Messiah became sin for us and when He was nailed to the tree so were the sins that were imputed against us.
Yahweh's holy ordinances were not nailed to the tree, the certificate of debt resulting in our death sentence was nailed to the tree.
That is why Paul said the Colossians were “dead in your sins” in verse 13.
The principalities and powers of verse 15 caused the people to sin by their man-made laws but Messiah was victorious over them.
This brings us to the crucial verse 16.
It was the deceivers of verses 4,8, and 18 that were judging the Colossians regarding the things mentioned in verse 16.
They had been imposing their man-made commandments and traditions upon the Colossians.
Paul told them not to allow anyone to judge them concerning those matters.
An important addition was made in the KJV that does not appear in any Greek manuscript.
The word “is ” in verse 17 was added, which changes the meaning of Paul's statement.
That is why it is written in italics. Retaining the word “is” implies the thought of shadow vs. reality. In other words, Messiah fulfilled the shadow of the things mentioned in verse 16.
However, if you remove the added word “is”, it implies that we should not let any man outside the body of Messiah judge us in respect to these things.
Indeed that is in line with the context of Paul's previous statements.
Notice Col.1:18 & 24 and Col.2:19, all of which teach us that the body of Messiah is the church or all true believers.
There are several other points worthy of mention concerning verses 16 & 17.
Verse 17 states that these things “are” a shadow of things “to come” not that they “were” a shadow that was now fulfilled.
Paul wrote this epistle approximately 30 years after
Messiah's death and resurrection and yet he still spoke of them as unfulfilled shadows of something in the future.Then I come to the following conclusion:
a ) The Sabbath was a resting day, but was also only a shadow of things to come.
b ) We can find our rest in Jesus.
c ) Paul, wrote that you shouldn't judge about the Sabbath or other days (of course as long as they aren't sin).
d ) The Apostles didn't wrote in their letter to the gentile believers that they should keep the Sabbath, which is a important part of the Jewish faith.[/QUOTEWas the weekly Sabbath a shadow of things to come? (Col 2:13-17) No. The days referred to are special annual Sabbath days, not the weekly Sabbath. They were called Sabbaths because of their restriction to do no work. (Lev 23:28,29,32,35,36,39). Distinguished from the weekly Sabbaths that were part of the immutable moral law (Lev 23:1-4,37,38). These aspects of the ceremonial law were to be phased out. (Gal 4:9-11).
“Here is the patience of the saints, here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” Rev.14:12
“Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.” Rev. 22:14
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