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So, this is my second post ever but I have found peace with this topic. I sought insight last fall regarding what to do and how to think of the seventh day sabbath. Basically, I concluded that the Old Testament with its commandments and laws have been fulfilled by Christ's life, death and resurrection and the commands of the New Testament are what we are to follow. Some of the commands are the same and some are no longer required to be observed. However the whole Bible is for our teaching and training in righteousness. This writing on the web helped me more than anything else: http://www.jesussaidfollowme.org/new-covenant-theology.pdf
Here is the summary outline to what it covers:
Part I. 8 Objections to “All Old Testament Commands Are Cancelled”
Part II. 8 Reasons Why All Old Testament Commands Are Cancelled
Part III. 2 Objections to “We Must Obey All New Testament Commands”
Part IV. 4 Reasons Why We Must Obey All New Testament Commands
Part V. Conclusion: Sanctification Is Christ-Centered (Not Decalogue-Centered)
Appendix: 12 Ways How We Use the Whole Old Testament TodayI hope that this helps everyone as much as it has helped me.
Many blessings,
KathiQuote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2008,21:13) Hi KJ,
Is it intelligent to walk away from the one Who blesses You?
God blesses me. Again, are you saying Jesus is God? You need to join the trinity fan club if so.Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 20 2007,13:45) Just for clarity of all one the many “sides”, from the ESV Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.The Greek word used in 5:19 that the ESV renders as “relaxes” is “luo”
a primary verb; to “loosen” (literally or figuratively):–break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-)loose, melt, put off. Compare rhgnumi – rhegnumi 4486.
Hi KJ,
Do you still feel this way about the sacredness of scripture?Hello all,
I'm jumping in here and wanted to add some thoughts so here goes:Does Exodus 31 say that the Sabbath is “forever?” Yes, and Genesis 17:13 says that circumcision is forever.
Ex 31:15-17
16'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.' 17 ” It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”
NASUGen 17:13
13 “A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
NASUSo, how can we understand these since the New Testament says that circumcision and
Sabbaths (Rom. 14:5-6; Gal. 4:9-11; Col. 2:16-17) are no longer necessary?
Here's an explanation how circumcision and Sabbaths are eternal. We are spiritually circumcised (regenerated: Rom. 2:28-29, Col. 2:11) and keeping Sabbath (resting from our works: Heb. 4:3, 9-10) in Christ.This is an excert from this web site: http://www.jesussaidfollowme.org/new-covenant-theology.pdf
My desire is for unity between believers.
Quote Hello all,
I'm jumping in here and wanted to add some thoughts so here goes:Does Exodus 31 say that the Sabbath is “forever?” Yes
“forever” is an english word. Exodus 31 does not say “forever.” While it is true that the word that is often translated “forever” does frequently mean that, it is not the actual meaning of the word nor does the word have to be understood that way every time it is used.
It basically means “time indefinite” which is often a very long time and sometimes is forever, but that is not the meaning.
The Hebrew word ‛oh·lam′ carries the thought of indefinite or uncertain time. Lexicographer Gesenius defines it as meaning “hidden time, i.e. obscure and long, of which the beginning or end is uncertain or indefinite.” (A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, translated by E. Robinson, 1836, p. 746) Accordingly, expressions such as “time indefinite” (Ps 25:6), “indefinitely lasting” (Hab 3:6), “of old” (Ge 6:4), “a long time ago,” “of long ago” (Jos 24:2; Pr 22:28; 23:10), and “long-lasting” (Ec 12:5) appropriately convey the thought of the original-language term.
The word ‛oh·lam′ is at times associated with that which is everlasting. (1Ki 2:45, ftn) The prophet Isaiah wrote: “Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite.” (Isa 40:28) Jehovah is “from time indefinite to time indefinite.” (Ps 90:2) Since Jehovah is immortal and does not die, he will continue to be God for all eternity. (Hab 1:12; 1Ti 1:17) However, the Hebrew expression ‛oh·lam′ does not in itself mean “forever.” It often refers to things that have an end, but the period of such things’ existence can be said to be ‘to time indefinite’ because the time of their end is not then specified. For example, the ‘indefinitely lasting’ Law covenant came to an end with Jesus’ death and the bringing in of a new covenant. (Ex 31:16, 17; Ro 10:4; Ga 5:18; Col 2:16, 17; Heb 9:15) And the ‘indefinitely lasting’ Aaronic priesthood similarly came to an end.—Ex 40:15; Heb 7:11-24; 10:1.
Another Hebrew term, ‛adh, denotes unlimited future time, everlastingness, or eternity. (1Ch 28:9; Ps 19:9; Isa 9:6; 45:17; Hab 3:6) At times, as at Psalm 45:6, the words ‛oh·lam′ and ‛adh appear together and may be rendered “age-during, and for ever” (Yg), “age-abiding and beyond” (Ro), and “time indefinite, even forever” (NW). Concerning the earth, the psalmist declared: “It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever.”—Ps 104:5.
The Hebrew term ne′tsach can also denote everlastingness. Among the ways it may be rendered are “forever” (Job 4:20; 14:20), “perpetually” (Isa 57:16), and “always” (Ps 9:18). Sometimes ne′tsach and ‛oh·lam′ occur in parallel (Ps 49:8, 9), or the terms ne′tsach and ‛adh appear together. (Am 1:11) All three words are found at Psalm 9:5, 6: “You have rebuked nations . . . Their name you have wiped out to time indefinite [le‛oh·lam′], even forever [wa·‛edh′]. O you enemy, your desolations have come to their perpetual [la·ne′tsach] finish.”
Quote So, how can we understand these since the New Testament says that circumcision and
Sabbaths (Rom. 14:5-6; Gal. 4:9-11; Col. 2:16-17) are no longer necessary?We can understand it by understanding the meaning of that Hebrew word and translating it a little more accurately as “time indefinite” rather than “forever” as many Bibles do.
david
Nick………if everyone could just come to view things from two stand point in scripture much would be cleared up. The is a Spritual side of things and a Physical side. The Physical side is CARNAL, and GOD made CARNAL Comandments to show Spiritual things.
Sabbaths………..is to show us a time is coming when we are to cease from out works and enter into rest and let GOD work in Us.”For He works in us both to will and do of His good pleasure. The carnal minded Israelites did not understand Spiritual things and were being taught them through Physical examples, and the same applies with clean and unclean food, GOD was Showing the what we take to our selves can and does effect us. So He created the clean and unclean animal laws, To provoke their thinking about clean and unclean things. These were all shadows of the real things (SPIRITUAL THINGS). We must learn who to apply these things in a SPIRITUAL way.
peace……………………………gene
Quote Nick………if everyone could just come to view things from two stand point in scripture much would be cleared up Ok, good idea, let's check the scriptures.
“Sabbaths………..is to show us a time is coming when we are to cease from out works and enter into rest and let GOD work in Us.””
I don't think that was a scripture.
Here's an actual scripture:
Why, then, the Law [which includes the sabbath]? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive (Gal 3:19)
Did the seed [Jesus] arrive? Yes, so the next scripture compliments the first:
Christ is the end of the Law, (Rom 10:4)
The law was in effect until Jesus arrived. Christ is the end of the law. How can this be understood any other way?
It's fun to say we should use scripture, and then quote yourself. It's even more fun to actually use scripture. The carnal minded man tends to shy away from scripture. The spiritual man uses scripture. The carnal man uses his own philosophies and hides in the face of scripture. (Sure, he may use one scripture, and twist it in order to avoid the rest) but this is carnal.
Quote These were all shadows of the real things (SPIRITUAL THINGS). We must learn who to apply these things in a SPIRITUAL way.
While it does have prophetic significance and while the principles behind the sabbath still exists, the sabbath, as a rule, does not.Hi David:
You say:
Quote Christ is the end of the Law, (Rom 10:4) That is not quite all of that scripture. This is what is said:
Quote Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth Marty
David,
Quote The law was in effect until Jesus arrived. Christ is the end of the law. How can this be understood any other way?
The Law was in effect long after Jesus arrived. Jesus was born under the Law and lived the Law. He told us that he did not come to take the Law away! (I won't quote the scripture…..you know which one it is, don't you?).Quote It's fun to say we should use scripture, and then quote yourself. It's even more fun to actually use scripture. The carnal minded man tends to shy away from scripture. The spiritual man uses scripture.
Pahleeeez! Yes you are so spiritual, David (and sarcastic, belittling, puffed-up….).
I'd rather read 3 paragraph's of Gene's posts where he alludes to scriptures I already know by heart, than to read 3 pages of your posts where you quote out every scripture at length. It doesn't make you more spiritual, David. It makes me skim over your posts as quickly as I can.
Quote The Law was in effect long after Jesus arrived. Jesus was born under the Law and lived the Law. He told us that he did not come to take the Law away! (I won't quote the scripture…..you know which one it is, don't you?). Yes, I do know which one it is. But he didn't say: “I did not come to take the law away.” He said something like: “Do not think I have come to destroy the law AND THE PROPHETS. I have come, not to destroy but to fulfill.”
Something like that.
The phrase “law and the prophets” does not refer to the mosaic law. It is referring to the law (first five books of the Bible) and the prophets (rest of the Hebrew Scriptures.)
This phrase is used a couple times in scripture to refer to the hebrew scriptures as a whole.Quote The Law was in effect long after Jesus arrived. Jesus was born under the Law and lived the Law.
True. it wasn't until the new covenant came into effect at penecost 33 c.e. The Christ “arrived” when he was anointed (christ means anointed one) with holy spirit in the river a few years earlier.Quote Pahleeeez! Yes you are so spiritual, David (and sarcastic, belittling, puffed-up….). MANDY!
Those sentences were a complete Joke. I was mimiking the irritating comments that Gene always leaves. He goes on and on about such things without scripture. I've never said things like that before. (Read Gene's post above.) I never talk that way.
Quote I'd rather read 3 paragraph's of Gene's posts where he alludes to scriptures I already know by heart, than to read 3 pages of your posts where you quote out every scripture at length. It doesn't make you more spiritual, David. It makes me skim over your posts as quickly as I can.
Understand that Gene doesn't really quote scripture. He uses two words here, and a thought there. Much like your comment above about the law, whereas the scripture speaks of “the law and the prophets” IT IS NECESSARY TO LOOK AT THE ACTUAL SCRIPTURE, otherwise, anyone can make such claims as you just did, without looking at more of the scripture. It's also very hard for someone else to check what he's saying in scripture when he doesn't quote scripture. Should I just believe him, or should I check the Bible? I prefer to check the Bible. It's hard to do without scriptures Mandy.david
David………I have quoted to you scriptures but you just change what they say as you have with many scriptures quoted to you and the try to shore up your belief system with JW garbage. or quotes from there tracts. Fact is if you really understood Scripture like you think you could explain your points with very little Quotes and you trying to say I don't use scriptures is an absolute (LIE). That's just your excuse for not dealing with what was posted. Like Your ignorance about the Kingdom of GOD, When Just a Plane and simple Scripture Spoken of by Jesus which i quoted clears up the whole matter. But because you and your JW indoctrinations won't even let you understand the obvious quoted scriptures. Before you start foaming out your garbage you need to take a good look at yourself. IMO
David,
Quote I never talk that way.
Not true. I've debated with you before, David. I'm aware of your style. I do respect you, as you know, but you and I debate very little. There is a reason for this.Quote IS NECESSARY TO LOOK AT THE ACTUAL SCRIPTURE, otherwise, anyone can make such claims as you just did, without looking at more of the scripture.
The addition of “the prophets” changed nothing about my claim.I don't really need to stand up for Gene, he is a big boy. My point was just that I like his style. I can sift for myself what is his opinion/interpretation and what is the base line scripture that he is drawing from.
Take care, no harm intended.
MandyDavid,
I do appreciate your message very much. I also appreciate the time and dedication you give towards your posts. I've shared this with you before. I certainly don't think you are foaming out garbage.
We may not agree, but your brand of Christianity is just as valid as the next guy's, imo.Have a good night,
Mandy
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