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Quote (charity @ Oct. 24 2007,11:40) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,04:12) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 24 2007,10:51) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 25 2007,03:46) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,02:30) But modern day Christianity is so far from the original Christianity that it is no longer recognizable.
KJ,I'm finding this to be true, too. I'm really disappointed in the truth that I am finding. Ha! I know that sounds funny, but I feel like I have been lied to on so many topics of Christianity. Now, having certain truths revealed to me, I am forced to change a belief and/or a practice once held dear. This is a huge bummer. Although the blessings of the LORD cannot compare. Praise Him! And keep coming back to give us tid-bits of what you are learning. So many of us here value the journey you are on…….
Press on, Brother!
The journey our brother is on is bondage. Keeping the law according to the letter and not the freedom of the Spirit.
So you say. And I haven't listened to Ronald Dart in weeks
. What I am finding is not bondage but freedom. I am finally realizing that what I have been doing for 20 years was the true bondage. When you are open to truth and stop looking at things through pagan eyes, its amazing how many things become so clear.
Me three…. its a strange feeling to arive and find freedom from bondage, in the reverse manner, of which we have been taught to seek after it.Job, is a good example, his freinds words sound so perfect to read, yet God was not happy with them?
Charity,You are right. Job pretty much sums it up!
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,04:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 24 2007,10:22) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,02:30) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 24 2007,09:16) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,00:25) WJ and Not3, Not turning Jewish. I like ham and shellfish too much!! I am merely seeing what has happened to what the original followers of Jesus believed and taught and see where God would not want people honoring His day.
Charity,
Thanks!
Hi KJ:Honoring his day or his commandments? The Lord has given us every day in which to rejoice and honor Him.
Actually, if you really get down to it, Christianity as practiced by the first followers of Jesus (and NOT Paul) was very Jewish. There is no indication that the very first Christians were not Torah observant. The difference is that they saw Jesus as Messiah.But modern day Christianity is so far from the original Christianity that it is no longer recognizable. Three headed gods, angels (or God Himself) inhabiting a body of flesh and dying on a tree, people thinking they will be a god too, etc.
Christianity started out as a heretical Jewish sect. Heretical in that they believed Jesus to be the Messiah. But as Paul took Christianity to the Gentiles, they proceeded to gut it and rob it of its Jewish roots.
Quote But no problem, if you want to keep Saturday as your Sabbath day because that is the day they kept in the bible, I think that is wonderful. Please be careful not to make a steady diet of ham and shellfish because I know that a steady diet of ham will lead to high blood pressure. The dietary laws that the Lord has given are good advice for the health of our body.
God Bless
I don't eat much ham. I just like it from time to time. And barbecue pork every once in awhile. But I love boiled shrimp!What I meant is that since Christianity moved so far from its Hebraic roots, God could very well have influenced early Christians to move from Saturday to Sunday. He could very well want only those who choose to be Torah observant to honor the Sabbath as the Jewish people do. Since most Christians don't see much value in the Torah, this makes sense.
kejonnI am confused at your words.
You say…
Quote
What I meant is that since Christianity moved so far from its Hebraic roots, God could very well have influenced early Christians to move from Saturday to Sunday. He could very well want only those who choose to be Torah observant to honor the Sabbath as the Jewish people do. Since most Christians don't see much value in the Torah, this makes sense.If breaking the Physical Sabbath is sin. Then you are saying God led his people to sin.
WJ,The Tanach makes it abundantly clear that the covenant with Abraham and then Moses would stand forever. The only change is that His commandments would be written on hearts.
God allowed the children of Israel to be led into several things because of their iniquities. So why would God not do the same with Christianity? It was man who decided to move to Sunday, and God allowed it. That is the beauty of free will.
Did not God allow Job to be tested and tried? And Job was faithful. How much more so will He allow other people who choose to go their own way continue to do just that.
kejonnYou say…
Quote
The Tanach makes it abundantly clear that the covenant with Abraham and then Moses would stand forever. The only change is that His commandments would be written on hearts.The Law of God does stand forever. But the law is fulfilled in Christ.
There are all kinds of laws that God said was forever like the Feast and the Sabbaths and plenty of ceremonial laws like circumscision and the cutting of our beards etc., but are we required to do those things?
Gen 17:3
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.Circumscision is of the heart now.
How about the earth?
Ecc 1:4
One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.Yet we know that the earth as we no it is pasing away. How, by being changed through fervent heat and a New heavens and New earth will come out of it. And so there is an Old Covenant and a New covenant.
It seems to me that you are saying that all of Christianity is in sin and rebellion.
This then would make you better than the rest, for you have come to the light.
You should not judge the hearts of those in Christianity because they dont agree with your interpretation of the scripture Its not that you cant disagree and say that they are wrong, but to say that they are rebelling against God and God led them that way I believe is wrong.
Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and they follow me. If these words are true and what you are saying is true then Christianity is not his sheep, meaning they are not even saved.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,05:20) Quote (charity @ Oct. 24 2007,11:40) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,04:12) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 24 2007,10:51) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 25 2007,03:46) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,02:30) But modern day Christianity is so far from the original Christianity that it is no longer recognizable.
KJ,I'm finding this to be true, too. I'm really disappointed in the truth that I am finding. Ha! I know that sounds funny, but I feel like I have been lied to on so many topics of Christianity. Now, having certain truths revealed to me, I am forced to change a belief and/or a practice once held dear. This is a huge bummer. Although the blessings of the LORD cannot compare. Praise Him! And keep coming back to give us tid-bits of what you are learning. So many of us here value the journey you are on…….
Press on, Brother!
The journey our brother is on is bondage. Keeping the law according to the letter and not the freedom of the Spirit.
So you say. And I haven't listened to Ronald Dart in weeks . What I am finding is not bondage but freedom. I am finally realizing that what I have been doing for 20 years was the true bondage. When you are open to truth and stop looking at things through pagan eyes, its amazing how many things become so clear.
Me three…. its a strange feeling to arive and find freedom from bondage, in the reverse manner, of which we have been taught to seek after it.Job, is a good example, his freinds words sound so perfect to read, yet God was not happy with them?
Charity,You are right. Job pretty much sums it up!
kejonn
I see, because someone disagrees with you now you are being persecuted and God is angry with us.
This is so sad.
kejonn
One more thing.
You say…
Quote
You have no idea what is going on in my spiritual walk right now. Once my eyes had been opened to the fallacy of the trinity, and my heart broken because of the way people treated me for it, it was then easy to see many more truths. After all, the fear was gone. All I had to look to was God, and when you can do that without care for what man might say, it is amazing how much will be revealed to you.When I stopped believing in the trinity, it was devastating. But now I am finding peace and is because I look at the Bible –and subsequently God — in a much different light.
I consider you a brother. I am sorry that men hurt you. But, since you came to the light, how many trinitarians have you treated with disdain and sarcasm and preaching your truth to? How many web sites have you went to seeking to trip up their faith?
Since you seek to teach your agenda and truth, how are you any different?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 24 2007,12:27) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,04:08)
WJ,The Tanach makes it abundantly clear that the covenant with Abraham and then Moses would stand forever. The only change is that His commandments would be written on hearts.
God allowed the children of Israel to be led into several things because of their iniquities. So why would God not do the same with Christianity? It was man who decided to move to Sunday, and God allowed it. That is the beauty of free will.
Did not God allow Job to be tested and tried? And Job was faithful. How much more so will He allow other people who choose to go their own way continue to do just that.
kejonnYou say…
Quote
The Tanach makes it abundantly clear that the covenant with Abraham and then Moses would stand forever. The only change is that His commandments would be written on hearts.The Law of God does stand forever. But the law is fulfilled in Christ.
We've covered this before. What does “fulfilled” mean? It does not mean abolished.Quote There are all kinds of laws that God said was forever like the Feast and the Sabbaths and plenty of ceremonial laws like circumscision and the cutting of our beards etc., but are we required to do those things?
And if a person is a Jew, then these things still stand. If a Gentile chooses to observe these things, then they are not wrong either.Quote Gen 17:3
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.Circumscision is of the heart now.
Now? You think Paul wrote something new?Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
This has been a principle all along. Circumcision was never really just about the physical act. Just like baptism in Christianity, its always been an act of obedience.
Quote How about the earth? Ecc 1:4
One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.Yet we know that the earth as we no it is pasing away. How, by being changed through fervent heat and a New heavens and New earth will come out of it. And so there is an Old Covenant and a New covenant.
The new is the old written on hearts. Jeremiah said as much.Quote It seems to me that you are saying that all of Christianity is in sin and rebellion. This then would make you better than the rest, for you have come to the light.
No, I am no better. I laugh at how people accuse me of such things when all I am doing is revealing what I am finding in scripture. Should I be blamed for wanting to return to the simplicity of the faith?Tell me, do you believe in the catholic church? Because most of modern Christianity is based upon its precepts.
Quote You should not judge the hearts of those in Christianity because they dont agree with your interpretation of the scripture Its not that you cant disagree and say that they are wrong, but to say that they are rebelling against God and God led them that way I believe is wrong.
I don't judge them. Most just do what they believe they should be doing. People have worshiped on Sundays for years. People have believed in the trinity for years. There are a boatload of beliefs people just adhere to because every one else around them does. Should I be blamed then if I choose not to believe just because others do?And I clarified my meaning. I believe God allowed Christianity to change the day of worship to Sunday. The majority of Christianity doesn't have a clue about the covenants made in the Tanach, so why would God want Jews and Christians to observe the same day if they do not observe the same commandments?
Quote Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and they follow me. If these words are true and what you are saying is true then Christianity is not his sheep, meaning they are not even saved.
Did Jesus keep the Sabbath? Do Christians? The answer is easy.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 24 2007,12:31) kejonn I see, because someone disagrees with you now you are being persecuted and God is angry with us.
This is so sad.
No, I mean that I feel like Job in some ways. My faith has been put to the test alot lately and I have people trying to tell me what I should do when they are usually only offering what they believe, not necessarily what is true. Is God angry with them? No more than me I would wagerQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 24 2007,12:47) kejonn One more thing.
You say…
Quote
You have no idea what is going on in my spiritual walk right now. Once my eyes had been opened to the fallacy of the trinity, and my heart broken because of the way people treated me for it, it was then easy to see many more truths. After all, the fear was gone. All I had to look to was God, and when you can do that without care for what man might say, it is amazing how much will be revealed to you.When I stopped believing in the trinity, it was devastating. But now I am finding peace and is because I look at the Bible –and subsequently God — in a much different light.
I consider you a brother. I am sorry that men hurt you. But, since you came to the light, how many trinitarians have you treated with disdain and sarcasm and preaching your truth to? How many web sites have you went to seeking to trip up their faith?
Since you seek to teach your agenda and truth, how are you any different?
The difference is that I don't dissociate with them and call them heretics. And as to how many sites, just his one and one other is all I know of! But both boards are similar.I am not trying to “trip” any one up. I am merely showing them the biblical evidence that I feel is true. The rest is between them and God.
Lastly, as far as sarcasm goes, it is a failing of mine. But it typically does not come until people first give it to me. No real excuse, just a part of my humanity.
Do you evangelize people of other religions? Why? Because you feel God has shown you truth. If I am supposed to stop telling others what i feel is valid, will you then stop trying to convert people of otehr religions if you encounter them? After all, they are convinced that they have the truth, so I guess you should leave them alone.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,05:20) Quote (charity @ Oct. 24 2007,11:40) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,04:12) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 24 2007,10:51) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 25 2007,03:46) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,02:30) But modern day Christianity is so far from the original Christianity that it is no longer recognizable.
KJ,I'm finding this to be true, too. I'm really disappointed in the truth that I am finding. Ha! I know that sounds funny, but I feel like I have been lied to on so many topics of Christianity. Now, having certain truths revealed to me, I am forced to change a belief and/or a practice once held dear. This is a huge bummer. Although the blessings of the LORD cannot compare. Praise Him! And keep coming back to give us tid-bits of what you are learning. So many of us here value the journey you are on…….
Press on, Brother!
The journey our brother is on is bondage. Keeping the law according to the letter and not the freedom of the Spirit.
So you say. And I haven't listened to Ronald Dart in weeks . What I am finding is not bondage but freedom. I am finally realizing that what I have been doing for 20 years was the true bondage. When you are open to truth and stop looking at things through pagan eyes, its amazing how many things become so clear.
Me three…. its a strange feeling to arive and find freedom from bondage, in the reverse manner, of which we have been taught to seek after it.Job, is a good example, his freinds words sound so perfect to read, yet God was not happy with them?
Charity,You are right. Job pretty much sums it up!
I guess they.. Jobs friends had no faith, or even a concious thought within their minds, to understand that that which was happening to the righteous Job, was Gods desire, and for how bad it looked they added to his suffering, in total ingnorance, amagin the comfort that he could have have received? from a mind of a humble friend, with confidence in his sight and suffering, untill the plan be revealed.A Mans gotta do what Mans Gotta Do…By the grace of God
it may seem against all he has ever known and learnedAnd at the cost of our close friends and family we suffer for the truth when we feel there is nothing else for us to do.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,05:17) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 24 2007,11:17) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,04:12) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 24 2007,10:51) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 25 2007,03:46) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,02:30) But modern day Christianity is so far from the original Christianity that it is no longer recognizable.
KJ,I'm finding this to be true, too. I'm really disappointed in the truth that I am finding. Ha! I know that sounds funny, but I feel like I have been lied to on so many topics of Christianity. Now, having certain truths revealed to me, I am forced to change a belief and/or a practice once held dear. This is a huge bummer. Although the blessings of the LORD cannot compare. Praise Him! And keep coming back to give us tid-bits of what you are learning. So many of us here value the journey you are on…….
Press on, Brother!
The journey our brother is on is bondage. Keeping the law according to the letter and not the freedom of the Spirit.
So you say. And I haven't listened to Ronald Dart in weeks . What I am finding is not bondage but freedom. I am finally realizing that what I have been doing for 20 years was the true bondage. When you are open to truth and stop looking at things through pagan eyes, its amazing how many things become so clear.
Whatever kevin…whatever.Have you bought your tent yet?
No, have you given away all your possessions yet?- Mat 19:16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?”
Mat 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
Mat 19:18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Mat 19:20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?”
Mat 19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Mat 19:22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.You have no idea what is going on in my spiritual walk right now. Once my eyes had been opened to the fallacy of the trinity, and my heart broken because of the way people treated me for it, it was then easy to see many more truths. After all, the fear was gone. All I had to look to was God, and when you can do that without care for what man might say, it is amazing how much will be revealed to you.
When I stopped believing in the trinity, it was devastating. But now I am finding peace and is because I look at the Bible –and subsequently God — in a much different light.
No kejonn I haven't sold my house and joined a monastery? Have you? This has nothing to do with you turning to the letter of the Law.I HAVE NO IDEA? When it was you who rebuked me because I keep the Sabbath.
They were only TEN laws written on stone. And only those laws are written on our heart.
What do you gain by emptying your house of every bread crumb. Which is a symbol of not having put out sin. If you are guided by the Spirit then you put sin out continually and repent. Not just once a year. Don't you already know that you don't have sin? That Jesus died so you would not have sin?
Kejonn please tell me why God only wrote TEN Commandments and gave the rest of the law you seek to keep to Moses to write.
Why kejonn was God's law placed INSIDE the ark and Moses' law placed outside the ark?
Why did Paul say He was not under the Jewish law but under the Law of God?
Do you having the Spirit of the living God need to remind yourself once a year that Jesus died for your sins.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Stop right there. Please notice that Paul is speaking of the Law of the Jesus fulfilled. “Crucified among you”
There is nothing in the Ten commandments that pointed to Jesus even being crucified.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Did you receive the Spirit by keeping the feasts days that pointed to Christ OR by faith that Jesus IS the Christ.
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Why was the sacrificial laws added? Because of TRANSGRESSION! Transgression of What? The Ten commandments. How long would this law that was placed outside the ark to last? “till the seed should come”
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Before the faith that Jesus was the Christ they were kept under the sacrificial law that pointed to Christ keeping the sacrificial laws.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
AGAIN What law pointed to Christ? Which law had people offering animals to God. Which Law had a “scape goat”.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
After you have faith to believe that Jesus was the lamb that God would provide as He did with Abraham. Then their is NO NEED to keep the law that Moses wrote.
Jesus is fulfillment of that law that pointed to the Christ Because Jesus IS the lamb of God who gave a sacrifice ONCE and for ALL time.
The whole thing was to believe Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit! The Gentile
s believed ~received the Spirit~ and yet did not keep the feasts as the Jews had too.If you wish to be as the Jews then keep the feasts but if you have faith that Jesus was the lamb who fulfilled those sacrificial laws then there is no need to do so.
be fulfilled,4137
G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: – accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.What did Jesus say “it is finished” the sacrifice has been fulfilled.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Peace and God bless you,
Ken
Hi KJ:
There are those who teach that unless believe this way or that way you won't be saved such as some of those who teach this relative to the trinity and those who teach this regarding being baptized exclusively in the name of Jesus and those who strict observance to the Saturday only Sabbath, and there may others, but my God has said:
Quote Mt 5:11
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.Lu 6:22
Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.And he said:
Quote 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned …I encourage you to keep searching for the truth and to put that which you believe to be the truth into practice. Just be careful not to be drawn into something that would be bondage to you rather than the liberty which God intended for us. There is one judge to whom we all will answer.
God Bless you and your family
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,06:43) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 24 2007,12:31) kejonn I see, because someone disagrees with you now you are being persecuted and God is angry with us.
This is so sad.
No, I mean that I feel like Job in some ways. My faith has been put to the test alot lately and I have people trying to tell me what I should do when they are usually only offering what they believe, not necessarily what is true. Is God angry with them? No more than me I would wager
kejonnLook!
I dont know what you have been through or what you are going through. But I sincerely pray that God would lead you and guide you and be with you.
If I have hurt you in anyway I am sorry.
I do get defensive of Christianity because the majority of Christianity is Trinitarian and what I have seen is many of Gods people in the churchs are doing good, loving God and man and doing great things in the kingdom.
I just got back from a ministers conference in Jacksonville Fl called the “Feast of Tabernacles” and the Spirit of God was greatly moing. People were healed and deliivered and set free from many things. There was great Joy in the house.
The worship and the Praise was awesome. The theme of the conference was about how the feast of Tabernacles is the feast of ingathering and that we are spiritually entering into the last feast before the coming of the Lord, The final harvest and outpouring of Gods Spirit in the earth.
So when I hear people critisize the body of Christ lumping all churchs together or all of Christianity together as being of the Whore or not saved or are in rebellion against God then I get defensive because this is not so in my experience or life.
There is no perfect Church or body of believers. If you find one then it ceases to be perfect the moment you or I walk into it.
So again only you and God knows your heart and where you are at in your walk with him. So forgive me for being defensive and coming on strong. For truly I wish you the very best in your relationship with God.
You believe Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for your sins, and so do I.
When the Lord shall build up Zion (the Chuch) he shall appear in his Glory.
BTW
I love all the scriptures including the Torah. In fact a lot of good relevant scriptures for our day were brought out of the Torah in the conference.
And the speakers were Trinitarian.
Blessings to you and yours!
Keith
Keith,
Thanks for the words. You and I have always “gone at it”, but we came to an understanding long ago too. I know what you believe while I searching again after so many years of thinking I knew. So you have not hurt me in any way. You have been very patient and kind. Don't ever give up on what you believe because your faith IS personal and no one can take it from you. The only thing that I ask is that you be open to all of what is said. We are all human and have our own set of faults.
Thanks again!
KevinQuote (kenrch @ Oct. 24 2007,16:31) No kejonn I haven't sold my house and joined a monastery? Have you? This has nothing to do with you turning to the letter of the Law. I HAVE NO IDEA? When it was you who rebuked me because I keep the Sabbath.
If you have time, go back and show me where I ever rebuked you for keeping the Sabbath. Not once. What I addressed you about was your attitude towards others who did not keep it as you did. I never once said you were wrong. So back up and look again.Quote They were only TEN laws written on stone. And only those laws are written on our heart.
Ah, and at one time I thought as much too. But if you want to follow the God of Israel, you can't throw away His Torah either. Its not “Ok, these people, the Christians get the easy road. The Israelites will have another set of 600+ rules to follow.” But the fact is, God says many times in the Tanach that His covenant is forever. The only change is where it is written. Do you believe the the Tanach is inspired?What I mean is that God is still God no matter who the person is. Why would he have one set of rules for one person and another set for the other? Is God a respecter of persons?
Even so, its about pleasing God, not about seeking after righteousness. So we don't do it for our own gain. Seek YHWH while He may be found.
Quote What do you gain by emptying your house of every bread crumb. Which is a symbol of not having put out sin. If you are guided by the Spirit then you put sin out continually and repent. Not just once a year. Don't you already know that you don't have sin? That Jesus died so you would not have sin?
What, is Jesus' blood some “sin filter”? No wonder most Christians live like the world, they think they have “fire insurance” and a “sin filter”.Quote Kejonn please tell me why God only wrote TEN Commandments and gave the rest of the law you seek to keep to Moses to write.
I'll do that if you can tell me why the New Testament is not written on stone by the finger of God. Until then, you will have to deny that the Tanach is not inspired while the New Testament is. Both were written on paper.Quote Why kejonn was God's law placed INSIDE the ark and Moses' law placed outside the ark?
The we should forget everything else in the Bible and just live according to the Ten Commandments. After all, the rest is written on paper.Quote Why did Paul say He was not under the Jewish law but under the Law of God?
Because Paul struggled with the law, more than likely.Quote Do you having the Spirit of the living God need to remind yourself once a year that Jesus died for your sins. Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Stop right there. Please notice that Paul is speaking of the Law of the Jesus fulfilled. “Crucified among you”
There is nothing in the Ten commandments that pointed to Jesus even being crucified.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Did you receive the Spirit by keeping the feasts days that pointed to Christ OR by faith that Jesus IS the Christ.
Do you think that every Jew is born in observance of the whole law? They too learn it. So a Christian is “reborn” into the family of God. Therefore you can seek those things which please Him as you grow.Quote Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Why was the sacrificial laws added? Because of TRANSGRESSION! Transgression of What? The Ten commandments. How long would this law that was placed outside the ark to last? “till the seed should come”
Thats not what the Tanach says.Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,
Deu 11:1 “You shall therefore love the LORD your God and keep his charge, his statutes, his rules, and his commandments always.
Deu 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.
Deu 4:40 Therefore you shall keep his statutes and his commandments, which I command you today, that it may go well with you and with your children after you, and that you may prolong your days in the land that the LORD your God is giving you for all time.”
Deu 12:32 “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.
Quote Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Before the faith that Jesus was the Christ they were kept under the sacrificial law that pointed to Christ keeping the sacrificial laws.
BINGO! Sacrificial. You said nothing about seeking to keep the other parts of the Torah, the things that will please God.Quote Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. AGAIN What law pointed to Christ? Which law had people offering animals to God. Which Law had a “scape goat”.
G
al 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.After you have faith to believe that Jesus was the lamb that God would provide as He did with Abraham. Then their is NO NEED to keep the law that Moses wrote.
See above. Either the Torah is not inspired or someone is reading Paul's writings in the wrong way. I would wager the latter.Quote Jesus is fulfillment of that law that pointed to the Christ Because Jesus IS the lamb of God who gave a sacrifice ONCE and for ALL time. The whole thing was to believe Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit! The Gentiles believed ~received the Spirit~ and yet did not keep the feasts as the Jews had too.
If you wish to be as the Jews then keep the feasts but if you have faith that Jesus was the lamb who fulfilled those sacrificial laws then there is no need to do so.
be fulfilled,4137
G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: – accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.What did Jesus say “it is finished” the sacrifice has been fulfilled.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Peace and God bless you,
Ken
LG&LP,
KevinKejonn……> If you get a chance look up in Romans and Galatians where the word Law appears in a Greek text, and you will find the definet artical (THE) is not there. So with it missing then Paul was not refering to the Ten commandments or any of the cammandments of God being done away with. He was Takling about How we obey them and saying it wasen't through the OPERATION OF LAW (forced compliance), that changed not should we or shouldn't we Keep them, He was talking about the (WAY) we KEEP the comandments, It's through a new andliving way we KEEP them. They have never been done away with and never will. I know you know this anyway, but if you get a chance check it out you'll find it quite interesting……….Peace to you brother……gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 25 2007,00:10) Kejonn……> If you get a chance look up in Romans and Galatians where the word Law appears in a Greek text, and you will find the definet artical (THE) is not there. So with it missing then Paul was not refering to the Ten commandments or any of the cammandments of God being done away with. He was Takling about How we obey them and saying it wasen't through the OPERATION OF LAW (forced compliance), that changed not should we or shouldn't we Keep them, He was talking about the (WAY) we KEEP the comandments, It's through a new andliving way we KEEP them. They have never been done away with and never will. I know you know this anyway, but if you get a chance check it out you'll find it quite interesting……….Peace to you brother……gene
Gene,Thanks. I can almost guarantee you that Paul — and Yeshua before him — were railing against the oral law, which became the Talmud. After the destruction of the temple, rabbinic Judaism became prevalent. It was directed by following the oral Torah (Talmud) and written Torah.
There is still a small sect of Judaism called Karaites. They do not believe in the Talmud and say it is the tradition of men. They claim their sect has been around since 1500 BC. They strictly use the written Torah (and all of the rest of the Tanach). These men and women would have likely lined up well with Yeshua and Paul, although Paul was a Pharisee. Pharisees believed in the oral Torah.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 25 2007,13:29) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 24 2007,16:31) No kejonn I haven't sold my house and joined a monastery? Have you? This has nothing to do with you turning to the letter of the Law. I HAVE NO IDEA? When it was you who rebuked me because I keep the Sabbath.
If you have time, go back and show me where I ever rebuked you for keeping the Sabbath. Not once. What I addressed you about was your attitude towards others who did not keep it as you did. I never once said you were wrong. So back up and look again.Quote They were only TEN laws written on stone. And only those laws are written on our heart.
Ah, and at one time I thought as much too. But if you want to follow the God of Israel, you can't throw away His Torah either. Its not “Ok, these people, the Christians get the easy road. The Israelites will have another set of 600+ rules to follow.” But the fact is, God says many times in the Tanach that His covenant is forever. The only change is where it is written. Do you believe the the Tanach is inspired?What I mean is that God is still God no matter who the person is. Why would he have one set of rules for one person and another set for the other? Is God a respecter of persons?
Even so, its about pleasing God, not about seeking after righteousness. So we don't do it for our own gain. Seek YHWH while He may be found.
Quote What do you gain by emptying your house of every bread crumb. Which is a symbol of not having put out sin. If you are guided by the Spirit then you put sin out continually and repent. Not just once a year. Don't you already know that you don't have sin? That Jesus died so you would not have sin?
What, is Jesus' blood some “sin filter”? No wonder most Christians live like the world, they think they have “fire insurance” and a “sin filter”.Quote Kejonn please tell me why God only wrote TEN Commandments and gave the rest of the law you seek to keep to Moses to write.
I'll do that if you can tell me why the New Testament is not written on stone by the finger of God. Until then, you will have to deny that the Tanach is not inspired while the New Testament is. Both were written on paper.Quote Why kejonn was God's law placed INSIDE the ark and Moses' law placed outside the ark?
The we should forget everything else in the Bible and just live according to the Ten Commandments. After all, the rest is written on paper.Quote Why did Paul say He was not under the Jewish law but under the Law of God?
Because Paul struggled with the law, more than likely.Quote Do you having the Spirit of the living God need to remind yourself once a year that Jesus died for your sins. Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Stop right there. Please notice that Paul is speaking of the Law of the Jesus fulfilled. “Crucified among you”
There is nothing in the Ten commandments that pointed to Jesus even being crucified.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Did you receive the Spirit by keeping the feasts days that pointed to Christ OR by faith that Jesus IS the Christ.
Do you think that every Jew is born in observance of the whole law? They too learn it. So a Christian is “reborn” into the family of God. Therefore you can seek those things which please Him as you grow.Quote Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Why was the sacrificial laws added? Because of TRANSGRESSION! Transgression of What? The Ten commandments. How long would this law that was placed outside the ark to last? “till the seed should come”
Thats not what the Tanach says.Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,
Deu 11:1 “You shall therefore love the LORD your God and keep his charge, his statutes, his rules, and his commandments always.
Deu 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.
Deu 4:40 Therefore you shall keep his statutes and his commandments, which I command you today, that it may go well with you and with your children after you, and that you may prolong your days in the land that the LORD your God is giving you for all time.”
Deu 12:32 “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.
Quote Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Before the faith that Jesus was the Christ they were kept under the sacrificial law that pointed to Christ keeping the sacrificial laws.
BINGO! Sacrificial. You said nothing about seeking to keep the other parts of the Torah, the things that will please God.Quote Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. AGAIN What law pointed to Christ? Which law had people offering animals to God. Which Law had a “scape goat”.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
After you have faith to believe that Jesus was the lamb that God would provide as He did with Abraham. Then their is NO NEED to keep the law that Moses wrote.
See above. Either the Torah is not inspired or someone is reading Paul's writings in the wrong way. I would wager the latter.Quote Jesus is fulfillment of that law that pointed to the Christ Because Jesus IS the lamb of God who gave a sacrifice ONCE and for ALL time. The whole thing was to believe Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit! The Gentiles believed ~received the Spirit~ and yet did not keep the feasts as the Jews had too.
If you wish to be as the Jews then keep the feasts but if you have faith that Jesus was the lamb who fulfilled those sacrificial laws then there is no need to do so.
be fulfilled,4137
G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: – accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.What did Jesus say “it is finished” the sacrifice has been fulfilled.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Peace and God bless you,
Ken
LG&LP,
Kevin
You still don't get it do you?The Ten Commandments are for MAN.
You argued about what day the Sabbath was on? Then admitted to Laurel that you knew it was the Seventh day. Shame! You knew but just wanted to argue! Shame. You didn't want the truth you just wanted to argue! Shame!
Now you want to keep as the Pharisees do the letter of the law. Are you afraid to drive on the Sabbath? Can you go further that a Sabbath day journey?
When quoting the Law did Jesus quote the law concerning the feasts? When the young rich ruler ask how to get into heaven did Jesus say keep the feasts?
You kejonn because of your hate have never understood the separation of the law AND I would venture to say that you do not keep the Sabbath in the Spirit.
You have changed kejonn I rather you when you didn't keep the Sabbath! Because as I found out when keeping the Sabbath according to the letter the Spirit will leave!
You have been engaging in conservation with demonic people who want to and HAVE deceived you!
Unless you can keep the Sabbath according to the freedom of the Spirit and NOT the bondage of the letter then you should PLEASE don't keep the Sabbath at all!
Too harsh! Too bad! The truth IS the TRUTH! Accept it or don't!
Truly you have given Satan an ear and he continues to whisper in your ear.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
You can only keep any of the Commandments by the Spirit and NOT the letter!
Rom 8:6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.Seek and follow the Spirit kejonn! Not the letter!
Where the Spirit is there is freedom. Freedom to break the law NO! Freedom to keep the law! We establish the law! BUT as Paul in Raman's 8 said ONLY BY THE SPIRIT!
Your peace has left you! As I said I have been there! WHEN I tried to keep the Sabbath according to the Letter the Spirit LEFT MY peace was gone!
You don't and won't believe me then ask GENE He has been there also!
What you are involved with will (as it already has) turn people away from the Truth of the Sabbath.
There is a separation of the law. I ask why one set was placed in the Ark And I asked why God only wrote Ten and I asked why Moses' law was placed outside the ark.
I showed where Paul did not keep the Jewish law BUT kept the law of God.
You have not answerd (that I am aware of) any of these questions. It's almost as if you were afraid you would have to agree with me
No kejonn you didn't answer those questions but you did give the blah blah that people give when they have no answer.
Why was only the law God wrote in the ark? Why did God give Moses law to write? Could it be that HE wanted the law that was placed OUTSIDE the ark to be known as MOSES' LAW? Or did GOD just get writer's cramp?
God help and bless you with His Spirit,
Ken
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 25 2007,14:19) You still don't get it do you? The Ten Commandments are for MAN.
You argued about what day the Sabbath was on? Then admitted to Laurel that you knew it was the Seventh day. Shame! You knew but just wanted to argue! Shame. You didn't want the truth you just wanted to argue! Shame!
Huh? I've always known that the Jews celebrated the Sabbath on Saturday. But at first I felt that the way it was written left it open to interpretation, like 92 believed. Through prayer and study I realized my error. So stop throwing your “shame” statements around. If anyone on here is a Pharisee, it is you because you get all riled up when people don't see truth your way.Quote Now you want to keep as the Pharisees do the letter of the law. Are you afraid to drive on the Sabbath? Can you go further that a Sabbath day journey?
Maybe you need to study more of the Tanach and some Jewish history. You would then realize that rabbinical Judaism was catching on around the time of Yeshua. The Pharisees believed in the oral Torah and written. It was the oral Torah that gave the minute details of how to carry out the written and it was all based on traditions (although most orthodox rabbis feel it is inspired).So to accuse me, a person who has not even seen one word of the Talmud, of keeping the letter is totally off base. I am merely looking to scripture to see what it says about pleasing God. If I choose to do those things which God says pleases Him, should I feel ashamed about it? It seems you want me to.
Quote When quoting the Law did Jesus quote the law concerning the feasts? When the young rich ruler ask how to get into heaven did Jesus say keep the feasts? You kejonn because of your hate have never understood the separation of the law AND I would venture to say that you do not keep the Sabbath in the Spirit.
Hate?!? Hate of what? What IN the world are you talking about? Where do you see hate? Bro, you need a time out. If anyone has villified people on here, it is you my friend. I don't use worlds like harlot and whore, yet I am accused of hate? You need to put out your spiritual mirror and some windex, I'm afraid you haven't looked at yourself lately.Also, you have no right whatseover to “venture” into any part of my relationship with God.
Quote You have changed kejonn I rather you when you didn't keep the Sabbath! Because as I found out when keeping the Sabbath according to the letter the Spirit will leave!
The same spirit that tells people they follow the harlot? I want some of that spirit. NOT.Quote You have been engaging in conservation with demonic people who want to and HAVE deceived you!
You're funny. You have no idea what goes on in other people's lives, but that won't stop you from spewing your anger. I bet you hate real Jews don't you? You want to believe in a Jewish messiah and follow 10 commandments given to the Israelites, but you accuse someone who does not believe in Jesus as Messiah of being demon possessed. Real classy.Quote Unless you can keep the Sabbath according to the freedom of the Spirit and NOT the bondage of the letter then you should PLEASE don't keep the Sabbath at all! Too harsh! Too bad! The truth IS the TRUTH! Accept it or don't!
I don't accept you. You are a mean spirited person. one who can get pretty nasty when someone disagrees with you. Should I now called you demonized? Will that get you sufficiently up tight? Bah. It never takes long for you to start with your harsh, angry jabs at people.Quote Truly you have given Satan an ear and he continues to whisper in your ear. Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
You can only keep any of the Commandments by the Spirit and NOT the letter!
Rom 8:6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.Seek and follow the Spirit kejonn! Not the letter!
Where the Spirit is there is freedom. Freedom to break the law NO! Freedom to keep the law! We establish the law! BUT as Paul in Raman's 8 said ONLY BY THE SPIRIT!
Your peace has left you! As I said I have been there! WHEN I tried to keep the Sabbath according to the Letter the Spirit LEFT MY peace was gone!
You don't and won't believe me then ask GENE He has been there also!
What you are involved with will (as it already has) turn people away from the Truth of the Sabbath.
There is a separation of the law. I ask why one set was placed in the Ark And I asked why God only wrote Ten and I asked why Moses' law was placed outside the ark.
I showed where Paul did not keep the Jewish law BUT kept the law of God.
You have not answerd (that I am aware of) any of these questions. It's almost as if you were afraid you would have to agree with me
No kejonn you didn't answer those questions but you did give the blah blah that people give when they have no answer.
Why was only the law God wrote in the ark? Why did God give Moses law to write? Could it be that HE wanted the law that was placed OUTSIDE the ark to be known as MOSES' LAW? Or did GOD just get writer's cramp?
God help and bless you with His Spirit,
Ken
Ken, please do not speak with me any more. You are a nasty vile man who calls himself a Christian. You always show us your true colors when someone disagrees with you. You may not like that but too bad.And I am certain I am not the only one who gets disgusted by you closing out your posts with “God bless” and similar statements when the content is so filled with anger and wrath that people want to feel sorry for you.
Kenrch…….> You your right in saying I was once under the law, I keep the Sabbath from sun down Friday to Sun down saturday, no TV for the kids, No work at all, No work for any of my men who worked for me either, I mean everything shut down. I even lost a large Dow Chemical Acount over the Sabbath. and other things also.
I keep all the Holy Days and i mean truly Kept them, the feast of tabernacles the Feast of unlevend Bread, the Passover, The day of Trumpets, The Day of Atonement, The last Great day, you name it I kept it, More then most Jew's do mow.I was truly under the law. But thanks to God who know my herart was truly trying to serve Him. Showed me that these were pictures of things to come. And some of them were already fullfilled.
The Sabbath is in the ten Commandments because it pictures the way Salvation works. WE must enter into rest with God and we do this by putting our Will to Rest as Jesus did His, And then God's WILL is whats being expressed through Us as it was through Jesus.
This rest is not Just One day a week, but an eternal rest and therefore the Sabbath is a SIGN of GOD”S PEOPLE. The only way that God is going to Be in all and through all is if we put our Wills to REST(Sabbath) and Let God's Will be done in us.
So you see the Sabbath sign or Picture is Far Greater than One Day a Week.
Ken….> you seam to think the Statues are different then the commandments, Show me a Statues that does not reflect the commandments of God.
“If thy neighbors ox gets out you are to Help him get it in', Love they neighbor,
All the statues and laws work together with the Ten commandments. And the principles still apply to day, except for the things that have already been fullfilled with reguards to the forgiveness of sins.Being under the Law is a term used to indicate (FORCED COMPLIANCE) that's the very meaning of Law. Thats why I ask Kejonn to look up the wording rendered by the original Geek text. If you look it up you will find the (DEFINET) article (THE) is not there which completly change Pauls meaning. It's not about (IF) we should obey the Law but (HOW) we obey them, is it through forced compliance i.e. (LAW) or do we OBEY then the the OPERATION OF GOD, By HIM writing them on our hearts. The question is never SHOULD we obey but HOW we (OBEY).
Ken, Kejonn is right you tend to get very defensive and hostle when someone disagrees with you, I think we all get a little that way at times, You once admitted you had a problem with pride,. remember what it say's pride goeth before a fall, and God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Like i said we all have this at times and that includes me also.
So if I have offended any please forgive Me….your brother in Jesus Christ……..geneKenrch
Question for you?
There was three articles put inside of the Ark of the Covenant.
What about the other two? Since you insist there is something “Special” about the “Ten commandments” over the rest of the Law.
What about the “Manna” and “Aarons Rod that budded”?
How about this?
God was trying to show us the “Trinity”.
God the Father – Ten commandments
God the Son – Manna
God the Spirit – Aarons Rod that budded
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